Does GOD Not Existed? - Page 10

"Look, there is no such thing as a 'good' God or a 'bad' God. These are all human traits."
Virtually all religions with a single God define God as "all good". Perhaps yours is the exception.

"3.All what I said in the thread is not an opinion and not needed any evidence."
Yes it does. You said that God affects us whether we believe in him or not. But that's only opinion isn't it?

CyberAngel,

Have you considered the fact that virtually every holy text that exists today has been translated, interpreted and re-interpreted by man? And my feeling is that perhaps how man interprets a statement/thought/idea that came from a divine source could be very different than its original or true meaning and intention.

Do you ever question that which you read in holy texts or do you just take it as "the word", no questions asked.

Just trying to understand your perspective.

DT... an observation and a question. You are very strong and intelligent in your arguments against the existence of a divine being and sometimes you even sound completely convinced; yet most of your posts are in god related threads. My question is this... Are you trying to convince all of the believers that they are foolish because their beliefs are based on nothing concrete, nothing provable... or is there a part of you who wants to believe and you are looking for the believers to give you some sort of evidence of the existence of a god?

Oh there's no doubt, I WANT God to be true. But I will not lie to myself and call my lie faith.

I can completely understand your desire/need to be honest and not "foolish" in the possible belief. But like it has been said many times by many people that is something that has to be experienced before it can be believed. And even the experience is near impossible of not impossible to effectively communicate. All the true believers do is talk about theories and ideas about what they believe to be true based on experience. And there are also people who just recite what they have been taught but perhaps aren't "believers" in the same sense.

So... the way you are operating now is from the perspective that "it isn't so until I'm convinced otherwise", and I've seen you get "close" to accepting the possibility but then you shut down, something inside your logical brain just won't let your heart listen (as vague as that may sound). So here's something you may consider, try hearing at least some of the words that are being said as "true", the ones that are at least close to making logical sense, the ones that you relate to the most, the ones you "want" to be true, contrary to your logical thoughts about it, and see what happens. If it's something that you have to experience to believe, you have to be open to the experience and right now, as far as I can tell, you're not. I guess what I'm saying is try having "faith", if even for a day, a minute, open your mind to the possibility, and maybe you'll begin to feel that there is something to it and that will lead you to an experience where you will "know".

Basically, if you are open to it it will show itself to you, if you're completely closed, you'll never see it.

Just a suggestion... take it or leave it.

With love.

" and I've seen you get "close" to accepting the possibility but then you shut down, something inside your logical brain just won't let your heart listen (as vague as that may sound)."
God is a seductive concept, hmmm.. and I thought the devil was the one who tempts us!

"If it's something that you have to experience to believe, you have to be open to the experience and right now, as far as I can tell, you're not"
I may accept it if I experience something trully unexplainable. It is perfectly logical to accept God if you have one of these experiences, but I have not.

"I guess what I'm saying is try having "faith", if even for a day, a minute, open your mind to the possibility"
What, God only reveals himself to those who lie to themselves?

"Just a suggestion... take it or leave it.

With love."
Thankyou, but I want to be honest. I have kid myself a lot in the past, not about God though, but its the same thing in the end, illusons hurt.

"What, God only reveals himself to those who lie to themselves?"

You don't have to lie to yourself. You just have to perceive beyond logic. There is more to you than your brain and you can open yourself to the possibility that you can listen and experience beyond your brain. The actual process of experiencing god is neither logical nor illogical in my view because it is an experience beyond our thinking. But then once you've had an experience you will be able to express it logically because you have experienced it.

Have you ever tried meditating? Meditation is not an "illusion" that has the potential to hurt you, it is a process of calming the brain and relaxing the body, which is beneficial to anyone. So you don't even have to lie to yourself, and maybe it will lead to experiencing god in some way.

Jesus, you people are down right silly.

Although it is near impossible to explain, I think you better start taking a better look at you "experiences". I have experienced such things, and I want to make sure we are talking about the same things before I tear you a new one.

You don't have to lie to yourself you just have to believe beyond perception? What do you think lying to yourself is, you see, when you lie to yourself you at least know deep down that your are lying, when you try to believe something based on unprovable evidence and or perhaps "divine experience" its harder to see the lie because you find ways to back it up with outside sources, credible or not, as determined probably not.

DT just say he doesn't know, and you just say you do, one makes sense and the other is lying to themselves unless it is backed up right?

Your beliefs beyong perception are so polluted by social influence, fear, personal desire, additction, that you don't even know what you are talking about, you don't even understand what you believe, you don't know its sources and you don't know its true meaning, you are simply saying that you believe in a pre-packaged idea sold to suckers everywhere and that you only believe it because it FEELS right, right? Isn't that the basis of you whole belief, how it feels, your gut instinct on the matter, what you want to believe, what gets you what you want after you die, what makes you feel like your life has meaning. What a bunch of crap. At least drugs addicts (not in the deepest stages of denial) know that they are addicted to something, so hopelessly dependant, fear the loss of it, everything revolves around it, it is what drives them, its rather pathetic the degree people will go the avoid the fear of uncerainty in life. Tsk Tsk.
For shame, telling your children stories of devils and boogeymen, scaring them with stories of burning in hell, then telling that santa and the easter bunny are fake but this horrid blood filled story is the truth, good job. Way to think for yourselves.

Love people, just never forget the nature of the beast.

Oh and cyber, don't worry no one cares about your grammar, we speak english just fine and still butcher it. Typing is a pain regardless

Its your "beliefs" and claims that will get you the heat around here.

Wow leftwood... You sound like me

thought - I haven't tried meditation, I honestly don't know where to start to have that. I'd be open, but I wouldn't expect much. Except perhaps, that I'd see whatever experiences I get as having purely biological origins.

Dumbteen:
_______
"3.All what I said in the thread is not an opinion and not needed any evidence."
Yes it does. You said that God affects us whether we believe in him or not. But that's only opinion isn't it?
1. It is not an opinion. God is giving all chance to every non believers to draw back to him. Once you do that you will feel Him in your life. But keep on mind there's always an end of everything and you are bound to that. God is not just capable to Love, He is capable to throw you out to eternal Damnation. Even in this life, what ever you do there is a consequence. Maybe now is not your time, but for sure you will facing your punishment in this life. But it is written to be punished in this life is great easier than the second death. We'll pray for you friends.
2. Dumbteen case and the others in the thread, keep on mind! God said! THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS TO ANYONE WHO BLASPHEMED THE HOLY SPIRIT. You know yourself. If you have done that. It's good to ask question to find answers of our confusions but be careful to your words. This is not for us but for your own sake. Just consider little possibilities it will not harm you just to avoid you from SIN without forgiveness –

THOUGHTMANI
Have you considered the fact that virtually every holy text that exists today has been translated, interpreted and re-interpreted by man?
1. Yes you are right the bible was translated to reach-out every nation and tribes according to their own language helping them to understand easily. And yet b/c the devil is working in all possible ways to destroy the purpose of God, he uses religions and cults to interpret the scripture to justify their heresy. They translated according to their on beliefs, some words omitted were changed to be exact.

2. I like the one you said "true believers" it emphasized clearly, that everyone who believed God is not God's followers. There are people pretending they real believers but they aim to twist the scripture and cover the truth by their deceptions.

Satan is working in all directions,

1.. He works into the heart of Ungodly Man – terrorizing humankind – killing the innocents and taking advantage to weak.

2. He works into the heart of people denying God's reality – by killing the truth and influence evil man for further terrors and destruction and it affects the society esp. the youth to sex immorality, drugs, rapes and murders resulting varieties of diseases. Then they will ask, why God let this things happened and they question his integrity.

3. Satan works with false religions – to cover the truth – making the confused more confuse. Resulting rebellious acts against God.

4. Satan works with Science – some scientist trying to prove that there was no creation and there is no God. But until now no proof have been found.

ToughtMani...
And my feeling is that perhaps how man interprets a statement/thought/idea that came from a divine source could be very different than its original or true meaning and intention.

1. I carefully choose what bible I use... There are versions, words are differ from the others but the meaning and intentions are the same. Why different words are used? Because there are technical words esp. in English that hard to understand. I myself is hard to understand King James version... So I usually use 4 versions comparing to what it says. To make the point clearer.
2. You are right maybe differ from the original... but the same meaning.
a. Example in Latin – (The original source of the bible) it has deeper meaning then the words used in english.
b. I used several versions to get the deeper meaning.
c. And if you are experiencing the power of God by reading His words, it guides you and you just found yourself satisfied. That how God reveals Himself to you. By your prayers you will feel the experience of talking to him heart to heart.

3. Not all translations are by God – Some were interpreted to justify their beliefs (no need to mention but if you like to know not here in the thread) these are called false doctrines/heresy/apostasy.

Thoughmani...
Do you ever question that which you read in holy texts or do you just take it as "the word", no questions asked.
Just trying to understand your perspective.

1. Some misunderstood that the bible itself or the book itself is holy. Before they open it they kiss it and they do the same when they close. But some neglected the real intentions.
This is not my own perspective but this is the right thing to understand of every Christian.
a. The bible is a collection of book that contain the World of God
b. During the time of the prophets (in the Old Testament – Israelites from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Isaac and to Jacob to Moses.) The world of God was not in written, it was memorized and verbally delivered to the people from generation to generations. Then later – they made in written called the scroll. These scrolls are written Law of God given to the people of Israel. Actually the first written law of God given to the Israel was the Ten Commandments done by the power of God. After the death of Jesus King James together with great wise men of his rule. ..gathered all these scrolls and collect them together called the bible.
c. The Bible – there's no such word written that makes the Bible holy. But we(Christians) all believed that the bible is the word of God. And it is written that the word of God is powerful. Paul said it is sharper than any double edged sword. And the early apostles use the word of God in the name of Jesus to fight the demons. Even today! If you believed to His words. Theirs is a great deliverance of your inner being. It will transform your old life to a new creation. That is the power of God thought His words.
d. The source of these words is the one Holy and most powerful One- and that is the GOD of the Universe. it is written "God said, be holy because I am Holy.) Everyword is inspired by the Holy spirit as it is witten. It serve as our guidance in this life and show us the truth of seeking our God. The author of the bible is God non others. All law in the land is bound to it.

Thoughmani...
DT... an observation and a question. You are very strong and intelligent in your arguments against the existence of a divine being and sometimes you even sound completely convinced; yet most of your posts are in god related threads.

I agree with you Thoughmani...

1. A man without FAITH remains uncertainty and confuse till his death.
2. In Proverbs: There are things seems right to man but at the end will lead him to eternal death.
Thoughmani...
My question to DT... Are you trying to convince all of the believers that they are foolish because their beliefs are based on nothing concrete, nothing provable... or is there a part of you who wants to believe and you are looking for the believers to give you some sort of evidence of the existence of a god?

1. In the case of Dumbteen even you will show him every possible way to prove God. If his heart and mind remains closed, no affects at all. He is trying too hard to find answers of his uncertainty but once he got an answer he shut off his life.

"1. It is not an opinion. God is giving all chance to every non believers to draw back to him. Once you do that you will feel Him in your life."
Opinion. Unsubstantiated opinion at that.

"But keep on mind there's always an end of everything and you are bound to that. God is not just capable to Love, He is capable to throw you out to eternal Damnation."
Aah, we got to the threats, good. Belief is not a choice. Its not my fault if God made a universe which is soooo terribly unconvincing.


"2. Dumbteen case and the others in the thread, keep on mind! God said! THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS TO ANYONE WHO BLASPHEMED THE HOLY SPIRIT."
But what if there is no Holy Spirit?


"You know yourself. If you have done that. It's good to ask question to find answers of our confusions but be careful to your words."
THE GOOD AND MIGHTY GOD ULUYA HAS NO MERCY FOR INFIDELS WHO USE THE WORD CAREFUL ABOUT WORDS

"1. A man without FAITH remains uncertainty and confuse till his death. "
A man with it spends his life both wrong (or right for the wrong reasons) and in a perpetual lie.

"2. In Proverbs: There are things seems right to man but at the end will lead him to eternal death. "
I'm glad God is so understanding.

"1. In the case of Dumbteen even you will show him every possible way to prove God. If his heart and mind remains closed, no affects at all. He is trying too hard to find answers of his uncertainty but once he got an answer he shut off his life. "
Again, I want to believe in God. It would be a beautiful thing, no? But I want even more to be honest, to not live in illusions and not pretend lies are holy and make them the basis of my life.

"I'm glad god is so understanding"
LOL

The essence of the being, in fact the entirety of the being, in my view is LOVE. Because, like I have said before, love is the common thread of every single spiritual belief and holy text that exists, so if there is a divine source or divinity behind spirituality, it has be a divinity of love.

Love is...

Understanding
Forgiveness
Acceptance
Appreciation
Compassion
Care
Peace
Respect
Patience
Freedom
Truth
Trust

... nothing more.

That's where the power, the knowledge and the wisdom is, through the practice of these concepts. The more of this we have in our lives, the closer we are to enlightenment, divinity, god, whatever we call it; beause that's what it is.

And yet cyberangel claims i will get : "eternal death"

dont take this personally!

One of the problems in this life - find ourselves in is the fact that we are divorcing ourselves from the well-spring of human rights. "We are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights." There are those amongst us, such as the atheists and the aggressive agnostics, who want to remove God from the picture of human activity and human behavior. And . . . when we remove God from human activity we end up not with human activity but animal activity, or animal behavior. Basically, animals and animal behavior are not worth much in anyone's eyes but the eyes of a tiny bunch of Knuckleheads.
There are the real knuckleheads who want to simply make all mammalian life the same, and extend human rights to animals that are animals and to human beings who are animals. We see this problem the world over. Where there is no God, there are little or no rights to life, to liberty, and to the pursuit of happiness. The problem is, of course, that the animal rights advocates have been watching too many cartoons. The rise of the anthropomorphic mouse called Mickey Mouse has caused many people to think that mice can think like human beings, and live and act like human beings. Of course, they cannot by any means.
It is a logical conclusion to reason in the following fashion.
1. There is no God.
2. Therefore, all life, being an accident, is equal.
3. Conclusion: all life has equal rights.
The problem is that under these circumstances animals end up equally with no rights, including the human animals and the animal animals.
It is more reasonable, which is to say, more rational, to divide up the kingdoms of life in the following fashion.
1. All human beings are animal, but not all animals are human beings. Only human beings are human beings.
2. Human beings are created by their Creator, and those who acknowledge such creativity are spiritual beings and offspring of God.
3. Those human being who choose not to be spiritual beings (beings created by God) are indeed animals, and they should be extended the courtesy we give to animals. "Choose this day whom you will serve."
The problem, to sum up this thesis in short terms, is that the atheists, the aggressive agnostics, and other such thinkers, are attempting to assign value and worth to areas where there is no worth, and that area is to animal and human life that was not created by a Creator, the Creator-Father-God . . . Almighty God.
Animals freely kill other animals. The human animal freely kills other human animals. But real men and womb men (women) recognize the value and dignity that God has given to all life, and especially to all human life. Every human being has a God-endowed life. Every human being who recognizes this fact is a spiritual being who has God-given free will. He or she may freely use this free will to choose to serve his or her God, or to assign himself or herself to the animal kingdom. Such assignment greatly reduces the human being's worth and value. Why? Because animals freely kill other animals.
The same God who Created us with life, liberty, and the right to work for happiness also created us to be free. The ability to have freewill is lost when there is no freedom. It is God who gave freedom and freewill.
There are many implications that derive from the thesis I have outlined. But I hold these truths to be self-evident, to coin a nice sounding phrase.
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One thing the Atheist Cannot Figure Out.
Respectfully speaking, of course.


It is really simple. It is self-awareness. The awareness that I exist. The awareness that I exist includes my awareness that you also exist. It also includes the awareness of the material world we live in. This self-awareness might be called self-consciousness, or simply consciousness. It is the ability to say, I am. I exist. The physical world does not explain consciousness in any way. There is nothing in the material world that would suggest that matter, living or dead, animal or mineral, would ever become self-conscious. Biology and the laws of physics and molecular composition do not explain where it came from. There is nothing to suggest that consciousness came from sunshine, heat, or electricity. And wishful thinking will never make this so. It is wishful thinking some make to get around and dispose of God, the First Source.
All of the evidence (babies are born every day, and gradually become self-aware) indicates that consciousness comes from other previous consciousness. Nothing alive has ever come from something that was not alive. When a human child reaches a certain age, often around two or three years old, they begin to say, "Who am I?" and "Where did I come from?" They might just as well say, "Where did my self-awareness come from?"
Dogs and cats never get around to asking where they came from. We had a little cockapoo silver haired dog for 17 years, and in all that time it never occurred to him to ask me where he came from, who he was, and why he was alive in my house. One cannot go up to a gorilla and ask him about his own existence. I know he exists, but he does not seem to know. It is a long, long jump between the gorilla, who does not seem to know much about his existence, and my personality, which knows it (I) exist. I not only know that I exist, but I often want to know WHY I exist. Many people ask why they exist. Sadly, many poor souls, when they cannot find out why they exist (or have a purpose in life) kill themselves.
A secondary question is, then, Why do we exist? But this is not exactly the question I would ask at this time. The point that is so related to self-awareness is the concept of why we feel the need to know why we exist. Why do we want to know? Why must we have a purpose? Why must we feel a need to "make a contribution?" Why do we want to, and need to "make a mark" on the "sands of time?" Whence cometh this "upward reach" that gives us our human emotional heart and mind?
Summing this up, we see that we have self-awareness, that it must have come from somewhere other than the material world, and concomitant to that is the awareness that we need purpose and meaning in our lives. The more the awareness, the more need for purpose and meaning in our lives. Human life without meaning is a tragic display of the material world.
I say my "I AM-ness" came from the Great I AM, whom we call God, and Father.
It is the only thing that makes sense. It takes too much faith to believe otherwise.