Does GOD Not Existed? - Page 9

1.God is always exists, before satan, b4 angels, b4 man, before the universe and even time itself.
2.God has no beginning because He is the source - God has no end, because He is the creator of everything.
3.God created time to put an end of SIN – to destroy satan and his followers to eternal damnation. Man is bound to it until the day of judgment, that's the end of time
4.God is eternal or infinite being. Meaning He is not bound to time nor anything He created.
5.God is sovereign Lord - God has ordained (or decreed)all things, by an act of His sovereign will, all that has come to pass, all that is, and all that will come to pass, and apart from His purpose, and predetermined plan, nothing will come to pass. In other words, no occurrence, large or small, occurs outside the sovereignty of God -- from the number of rain drops falling on your lawn during an afternoon thunder storm, to the dramatic events of the Desert Storm war, all are within, and part of God's divine decree. As often commented, even if one molecule is roaming "free" in the universe.
6.God provision is no reservation. It's for everyone. His love is for everybody,
a. Some honor Him, believe in God and praise Him in return.
b. Others rejected and question His divinity and integrity and some deny His existence. Scripture says, the Father of this world blind their eyes to hide them from the truth.
7.God cannot be characterized such as Christian's God, Muslem's God, Hindu's God. Because God is the God of the universe and all it contents even the Atheists.
8.God give the free will of man, right to choose or freedom. Results of our choices and actions have been ordained or decreed (see No.5). Man is responsible for the consequences of his actions or activities. 9/11 is the result of evil choices – they are man without God. If all believe in God and use their free will for the glory of God 9/11 should never happened. (to that you can do about it "Dumbteen" to believe in GOD to avoid further destruction to mankind.)
9.To see the proof of God existence is, to open your spiritual understanding let flow the spirit of truth into your life, don't allow the philosophical deceptions of the devil or satan to control your mind and your soul. Instead, have faith on your creator. That is your proof "your FAITH" to believe him without any questions or doubt. Read the ff txt:
•Man cannot see - until he first be born again. John 3:3.
•Man cannot understand - until he first be given a new nature. I Cor. 2:14.
•Man cannot come - until he first be effectually called by the Holy Spirit. John 6:44,45.
The evil is an evidence that God exists, they keep on doing evil things to challenge the integrity of God. To give way to every argument they have in mind denying God.

A Story

One day, my daughter claims she has speck on her right eye. I look at it blow little but nothing in her eye. She plays all day long, and the following day, days more to come as usual normal because no speck really at all. After one moth, again claims she has speck on the left eye. Again I blow and said no more. After a while and a while keep on coming saying speck still there. So I have to look at it, and I saw a speck on her eye.

What I mean is, if you think there is no God, then you shouldn't have any arguments and debate what others believed. But why you keep on existing denying God again and again, because, you know it and you feel it that God really exists. Anybody claim that there's no God is an instrument of the deceptions of evil.

CyberAngel

[quote]

That's your opinion. Of course IF God exists then he affects atheists. IF he does not, then he doesn't even affect chrisitans.

Back up your opinion with evidence. Otherwise an opinion is, by default, false.

CyberAngel, the following two statements in your description or definition of what god is, in my opinion, contradict each other.

"...to destroy satan and his followers to eternal damnation...."

"...His love is for everybody"

If god loves everyone, damnation does not belong in the vocabulary, wrath does not belong in the vocabulary.

I'm just curious how one can hold these conclusions in an image of a loving god. Can you explain?

And also cyberangel, that was one contradiction made evident by thought, another is all things happening by god's decree or whatever, nothing happens that he doesn't "control"? is that what you meant, if so, then were do these "evil" acts come from if not from him and his will, how does free will fit in your almighty god explanation? And please, get to thoughts point of how damning anyone is sharing gods love for everyone.

When god kills indescriminately, how are we supposed to put real value in life, and feel that it really matters if others kill, if we all died of natural causes then the question would be irrelevant in this context, but we die horrible deaths at the hand of god, torturous death, like cancer and many diseases for one, any nature based death which can involve horrible dismemberments and pain. When a parent has to hold their dying child as it screams because its missing limbs or impailed by any number of things, where does the just and fair and loving god fit in that scenario, what evil have our world innocence commited?

DT said something earlier that I feel is a basis of a great point, is belief a choice?

Think about it.

Belief is often described as believing something in the face of lacking evidence, I don't know if uncertainty is or should be allowed because that would indicate unsure belief, but in the face of opposing views and evidence or the lack there of as mentioned.

Well, all that better descibes denial, self delusions meant to avoid dealing with unpleasant thoughts or issues. Hmmmm.

And as for the option of belief, if you know you cannot know something, because all evidence is lacking or contradictory as well as unsubstantial, then is there really any true belief even able to exist, just because someone says they believe something they can't know or don't understand, doesn't mean they really do, they just convince themselves they do, because every person I've talked with who "believed" something tended to look or sound pretty unsure about things at one point or another, esp of course when talking to religious people.

Cyber mentioned how people know or feel that god exists even if they argue the point, well I have to wonder, do you like most refer to the "good feelings" that come from believing?

If so, as a person who has felt such good feelings from church activities claiming belief, I can tell you that it is just as likely that the "euphoric" feelings came from simply giving in to a belief, giving up thinking for yourself and acknowledging the cruelties of reality, giving into the notion that the other people chanting or singing or reading their bibles around you actually care. And then they pack up and go home, bitching aobut rap music and whats on tv and how it is the devil.

The point being that as a euphoria chaser, I can put religious euphoria in the same catagory as really good weed, mixed with possitive emotions, and the shutting out of all things that make you think unhappy thoughts. This is no proof of god or belief, this is the opiate of the masses, this is the world's biggest lie, and untill even preachers start more readily practicing what they preach it shouldn't be seen as such.

So if there is room for uncertainty and lacking evidence, is there room for belief?

.

aw quit yer bitchin ya woke me up

Zzzzzzzzzzz

First of all, am not good in your language because am not American, I can speak English but maybe not deep as your words. What am saying is pls. don't judge me by my grammars.

I found my self in this site by incident and the arguments of dumbteen is the first thing I have read..

if you put yourself to dumbteen you might well understand his reasons not to believe in God. In every opinion he has makes him more confuse. Dumbteen is so smart guy, he delivers his arguments pretty well – in a very logical reasoning.

Man of wisdom... SCIENCE, everything on earth, there should be a precise explanation and proof. To the believers might say, good Satan believed that there is God but TO Dumbteen is none Thee at all.. In the case on DT neither he believes that satan exist. It is more complicated and more complex compared of bundles heresy of religions and all cults of this world.

To believers, the challenge of Dumbteen is prove that God really exist. Far beyond to the knowledge of Dumteen, he is challenging the Supreme Being. This is not just a discussion. God is the main issue here. We are not talking for just a thing, but you are talking about the SOVEREIGN LORD. To me as believer, when I read the words of Dumbteen, I trembled and then I feel sad. A 17yo smart kid, utters such things against God - anybody will say such a words, that is blasphemy-)

Folk we are talking things involving our God. He is not same on our being. God deserves our most respect in all ways. Dumdteen, we respect your belief we don't cretisize you it is just discussions, but while discussing things please avoid words that blasphemes our SOVEREIGN. IT IS GOOD FOR EVERYONE AND EVEN FOR YOU.

Ok folks, back to the ISSUE! Dumbteen needs a proof.

Please read the following. My aim is not to argue but only to give you this simple thought.
1. Believing in God is like a medicine, fist you have to swallow it before it cures you.
2. No one can grasp the infinite wisdom of god – his way is differ from our ways
3. If you want to help ur self to prove prove God, you have to believe in the bible
4. His creations and all things causes proves that He Exist
5. How you will see proof if you closed your mind of what you see and understands every reasons base in your own opinions.
Why not allow God and give Him a chance to explain – elemental said revealing of god is too personal, mind cannot express and impossible to show any visible proofs.

Questions for Dumbteen:
1. Do you believe of doing evils or bad things is a SIN?
2. You believed that everything there is a cause? Please explain the cause of the SOURCE of everything in this universe.
3. Like the chicken and egg which one cause first. Please explain.

PS:
DumbTeen is real smart guy, Believers need exactly like him to prevail the truth about God. What miracle is possible to make change his mind if He not believe at all any books such as bible, or others that proves about God. How to comprehend such thought and ideas.

Believing that, God is exist came from what we experience from what read from what heard, and what we see that result faith on him. It starts from oneself. We should give a way find the proof and answers of anything that confuses us. Just like in Physics, In your theory is to consider every angle of our hypothesis and need careful analysis, we need an idea from others that's why we research just to prove the formula of our theory. Sometime scraps ideas gives the most precise answer. And sometimes baseless hypothesis is the solution to our problems, it needs only an attention and find the possibilities from the smallest point. Always believe the possibilities. Dumbteen, try to consider the smallest possibility. I know, you yourself deep inside believe His existence, but in some reasons makes you think He is not real. Of what you feel is differ from what you feel. I read all your lines in the thread, in some ways you believed don't deny that. Otherwise it will make less intelligent.

Do not ask anybody to give you a proof that god is exist like giving you a bread. The ways of God is differ from your ways, and as other think. No one can grasp his infinite mind.

In a way you like to prove God is blasphemy. And even no forgiveness. (am not scaring anybody, but if makes you scare then do something)

In the case of Dt and others who don't believe God, to a man is impossible for deliverance. But still do not ignore the power of God. Remember what he did to Paul.
And if you claim that you a believer then do not let the devil to use you to drive them(chatters) away, just to defend your ideas and at the end the evil will laugh at you. It is not wrong to quote texts from the bible but it depends on how you use it. Do not use the words of God for your own motive to justify your stands..

"THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE"

cyberangel: GodBless

" Dumdteen, we respect your belief we don't cretisize you it is just discussions, but while discussing things please avoid words that blasphemes our SOVEREIGN."
This is a thread about (dis)proving God. I take for granted that indeed I am supposed to criticize people's beliefs, in this particular thread.

"1. Do you believe of doing evils or bad things is a SIN?"
I believe you can do things which are selfish, and to be avoided. I do not think you will be punished for it though. Unless human society decides to punish you.

"2. You believed that everything there is a cause? Please explain the cause of the SOURCE of everything in this universe."
I don't know what that source is, just as you cannot tell me the source of God.

"3. Like the chicken and egg which one cause first. Please explain."
Anyone with decent grasp of Darwinian evolution knows that question doesnt have an answer, this is because animals change gradually. We don't have good enough definitions of chicken or egg.

Sorry i just want to correct something.

I suppose to say:

"of what think is differ from what you feel."

GodBless!

ps.
I read all your reply, and i will be answering you soon. Am kinda bz that's why am not online always.

Thank You Guys.

Dumbteen!

Am not against to anybody just the issue. In this way if we could be friend.

take care!

U know, this topic can go on for ages withought reaching a conclusion. It's mainly because of stubbornness from both sides.
Look, either you beleive in God or you don't. U can't say that He is cruel or unjust, cuz thats just plain stuipid.

" U can't say that He is cruel or unjust, cuz thats just plain stuipid."
I think it makes belief in an all good God stupid.

Look, there is no such thing as a 'good' God or a 'bad' God. These are all human traits. If u beleive that there is a God, then you can't say that he likes tuna, is selfish, has a good sex appeal......

Thoughtmani.
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CyberAngel, the following two statements in your description or definition of what god is, in my opinion, contradict each other.
"...to destroy satan and his followers to eternal damnation...."
"...His love is for everybody"
If god loves everyone, damnation does not belong in the vocabulary, wrath does not belong in the vocabulary.
I'm just curious how one can hold these conclusions in an image of a loving god. Can you explain?
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1.Back to Theology: God created Hell for Satan and his angels it was not meant for human. Why God created hell? In responds to the rebellious activities of Satan to put and end of his evilness.
a.Satan rebellion has no forgiveness including his angels.
b.Satan was given a gift of freewill the same as human but he overpowered or abused it resulting against the law of God – which is SIN.
2.Yes His love is for everybody (meaning every man) But it doesn't mean His love will allow evil and sins will be forever. That is the main reason why Man or every mortal creatures, bound to time until the final day. To put and end of evil and sin. That's why He's giving us all chance to turn unto Him while we are living. Your death is unpredictable. What if you die without repenting.... Remember God is not only capable to Love but He is capable of anger and wrath. It is recorded in the history of mankind some of his divine judgment to the people of Israel – even in the time of Noah (that if you don't believe in the bible, quran, Pentateuch book of the Jews and the torah , cannot help it). These things are sign of God's wrath. Will be he same in the final day, God's love will change to wrath to destroy every single evil in the land including man who did not turn back to Him. The difference only is that, it will be an eternal damnation – the second death.
3.In theology! Everybody refers to man. Satan is not included.

Dumbteen:
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That's your opinion. Of course IF God exists then he affects atheists. IF he does not, then he doesn't even affect chrisitans.
Back up your opinion with evidence. Otherwise an opinion is, by default, false.
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1.Study of God is not a Science – science mostly need precise measures and answers. But about is God full of mystery. And needs your spiritual understanding.
2.How God affects to one life? Let us put this way, to produce light need electricity. Electricity need both positive and negative. What I was saying is, to believe in God and to experience His power and miracle is we have to open our heart and do our part.
3.All what I said in the thread is not an opinion and not needed any evidence. That is what am saying in No. 2. Experience the power of God, through His revelations. Every single word that you read is the fact that every believers brought all the answers of their uncertainty. Even to the non believers who open life of these facts compels them.


Leftwood:
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And also cyberangel, that was one contradiction made evident by thought, another is all things happening by god's decree or whatever, nothing happens that he doesn't "control"? is that what you meant, if so, then were do these "evil" acts come from if not from him and his will, how does free will fit in your almighty god explanation?
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Smart question Leftwood. Back to the principal of Freewill.
1.That is right God is capable to control everything even to the freewill of man. (But He wont do that.) Freewill is a gift given to man and to the angels. It is all your right to choose, you have the all the freedom. But every choices and actions of man has a reward and consequence that has been ordained or decreed in corresponds to your actions. Just like a Computer Program. The results depend upon the information you input.
2. Your Freewill in totally in your control and God won't intervene whatever you decide. And God give you the wisdom to determine what is right from what is wrong. So, every decision you make is totally your responsibility.
3. Everything in the universe is ordained or decreed by God. And this is the greatest mystery of Him. Every reason of any particular object, from great to the smallest things is justified by his decree and does not contradict.

Leftwood:
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When god kills indescriminately, how are we supposed to put real value in life, and feel that it really matters if others kill, if we all died of natural causes then the question would be irrelevant in this context, but we die horrible deaths at the hand of god, torturous death, like cancer and many diseases for one, any nature based death which can involve horrible dismemberments and pain. When a parent has to hold their dying child as it screams because its missing limbs or impailed by any number of things, where does the just and fair and loving god fit in that scenario, what evil have our world innocence commited?
___________________________________________
1. When god kills indiscriminately: I understood you believed in God! You cannot deny that. All things you said as well as others about not believing God are just pretentions and these are the deceptions of Satan to confuse everyone.
2. What I understand in your point is your sympathy to our horrible world. And why God allow these things to happen. Everyone anguish and really feel bad about it how much more to me who believe in God.
a. If you consider, allow me to use the story about the flood of Noah's time. It was a divine judgment and it was the Sovereign act of God. If you accept God Sovereignty, then you should not question that.
b. Cancers, high blood, AIDS, and many more... That kills people. There should be a reason of all these. We have said anything there is a cause. Now we can use our Science, to know what are the reasons of these diseases. In most cases the cause is abusing our body. Freewill was not use properly. Sometimes the cause is not from our part, in some cases is b/c of improper use of freewill of others.
3. Where does the just and fair and loving god fit in that scenario?
God loves you, but how it affects you without doing your part by using your freewill properly.

Dumbteen:
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This is a thread about (dis)proving God. I take for granted that indeed I am supposed to criticize people's beliefs, in this particular thread.
1. Disproving – is in particular for something that has been approved.
You're saying, that your pretentions hide the truth of the reality of God. But you are confuse and your aim is to convince yourself and even to others that God does not exist. Though you feel he know well he is real.
2. A smart man can deliver his opinion without criticizing or without mean to others. You can turndown an invitation without hurt feelings.

2. "1. Do you believe of doing evils or bad things is a SIN?"
I believe you can do things which are selfish, and to be avoided. I do not think you will be punished for it though. Unless human society decides to punish you.
I understand what you just said, but you did not get my point. If you believe that evil or bad thins is a SIN. Please answer by a simple yes or no.


"2. You believed that everything there is a cause? Please explain the cause of the SOURCE of everything in this universe."
I don't know what that source is, just as you cannot tell me the source of God.
1. Anything in this world cannot explain the cause of the Source. So Scinece is imperfect. An evidence of that, lot of our scientist at end of their journey in science claims the reality of God b/c they found nothing to their questions. E.g. the son of first martin luther.
2. God reveals enough to prove He is real. From creation, through the prophets, through Jesus and His miracles. Others remain mystery. His mystery is far beyond from our understanding. No Man thought can comprehend.
3. As I said, God is no beginning because He is the source of everything.
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"3. Like the chicken and egg which one cause first. Please explain."
Anyone with decent grasp of Darwinian evolution knows that question doesnt have an answer, this is because animals change gradually. We don't have good enough definitions of chicken or egg.
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1. You are man of rational and needs evidence. And you believed to Darwin's theory. These theory is baseless and no evidence. It was not proven at all. One more thing, why Darwin did not discuss the source of fossils which he claimed the cause of evolution.
2. The question is not how things change, the issue here how it exists, where it came from, sure chicken came from nothing, don't tell us the egg came from elephant and hatch as chicken, which very irrational and unacceptable.
3.Chicken or egg came from nothing it is not rational that it came from something. Who can make exist of something from nothing. It's obvious who did.

Cyberangel!
"The Truth will set you free, and will give you peace of mind."
[u]