Does GOD Not Existed? - Page 6

"Again, earth quakes etc have got nothing to do with God. "
What? Nonesense, he created the world and it rules knowing full well what disasters might befall men through no fault of their own.
If he was trully all good, he would have made a universe where we are only hurt through our own evil.

"To answer the question of where do we come from and how, the most logical one is God."
Please explain how.
Logic will tell us that there must have been some ultimate self-caused thing which caused the universe. But that doesn't mean it is God. Let alone a christian God.

I say there are laws to existence.
Like maybe the one way this planet would be able to support man kind would be one that involves earthquakes. Its like throwing up, it's painfull, but it gets the sickness out.

Also, I believe that there are laws that God abides by. If you are at all familiar with why christ was sacrificed on the cross, it was because there had to be a perfect man to be sacrificed for the sins of the rest of the world so that the sinners would be saved.
Those laws, I think, also involve that a man must be tried in his existence by his choices. I believe I am living for something, not just being a freak accident of the universe. I feel that I have a purpose to find my own prupose and such forth.

"I say there are laws to existence.
Like maybe the one way this planet would be able to support man kind would be one that involves earthquakes."
This seems paradoxal. God is all powerful, he defines the laws and defines what is necessary for life.
He defines everything from Pi to what the colours we see look like.

"Also, I believe that there are laws that God abides by."
Then there must be a God greater then this one. Who decided those laws? God is a convenient answer to the universe's origin because all the arbitrariness becomes His will instead of arbitrary, if some arbitrary laws still remain (earthquakes necessary?) then there's no reason why another Greater God isn't there.

exactly, and if we knew everything there is to know about everything, we would still have questions IMO. this is one of the stems of my personal beilief in gods exsistence. god isnt the answer to the arbitrary questions of our world, but rather is the answer to the answers of most of those questions... if that makes sense. so heres a thought, instead of god being seen as "love" perhaps the real truth of it is that god is "why."

Wyote, I like that thought.

To me, God made the rules that he abides by. God made the universe and created an order to it. This order is the laws of the universe as we know it. Such as Gravity, energy, fusion, ect. God is God because he is perfect, he is perfect because he follows the rules he made. There is no God above him, but because he is perfect, he abides by the laws of the universe that he made.

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What? Nonesense, he created the world and it rules knowing full well what disasters might befall men through no fault of their own.
If he was trully all good, he would have made a universe where we are only hurt through our own evil.

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ANSWER
Genesis 3; 4 (*=my explanation*)
But the serpent said to the woman, "No, you shall not die; (*This is a lie, because it brot death*) for God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and EVIL,"

Let me give a brief explanation of the Garden of Eden.
They had the companionship of God. They had food, water, animals. They had each other. They wanted for nothing.
They disobeyed in the one thing God asked.
They were banished from the Garden of Eden.

They now knew good and evil. the evil was NOW allowed to be surfaced and not hidden and kept from them.
THEIR EYES WERE OPENED.
Their free will was given to them, and they choose.

Natural disasters come from evil. Satan is allowed to interfer with mankind in many ways and blame God.

Take Job for instance....
JOB 1; 8-12
And the Lord said to him (Satan); Hast thou considered my servant Job, and there is none like him in the earth, a simple and upright man, and fearing God, and avoiding evil? And Satan answering said; Doth Job fear God in vain? Hast not thou made a fence for him, and his house, and all his substance round about, blessed the works of his hands, and his possession hath increased on the earth? But stretch forth thy hand a little, and touch all that he hath, and see if he blesses thee not to thy face. Then the Lord said to Satan; Behold all that he hath is in thy hand; only put not forth thy hand upon his person. And Satan went forth from the presense of the Lord.

(God allowed Job to be tempted)

JOB 1; 16
And while he was yet speaking (Servant to Job) another came and said ; The fire of God fell from heaven , and striking the sheep and the servants, hath comsumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell thee.

*See how the blame is put on God. When God allowed Satan to do as he could to try to persuade Job to hate God. (As I quoted earlier)

Job 1; 19
A violent wind came on a sudden from the side of the desert, and shook the four corners of the house, and it fell upon thy children and they are dead, and I alone have escaped to tel thee.

(Another thing Satan did)

Job 2; 9
And his wife said to him ; dost thou still continue in thy simplicity? Bless God, and die. And he said to her : Thou hast spoken like a one of the foolish women If we had not received good things at the hand of GOD, why should we not receive evil? In all those things Job did not sin with his lips.

The whole story of Job's life is he never stopped beleiving even though SATAN took all from him, He stayed in faith. in the end, Job is restored to greatness.

BUT please note; satan perpetrated the catastrophies.
God allowed the test to take place, because Job had much good from God. Satan wanted to proove God would NOT be loved in adversity.....and calamity. Job lost everything.

Then Jesus came, and showed us how to pray the Our Father.
To NOT be put to the test.

Those who have a good life and no worries, and NO faith in God, have only the life on earth. So the book says. Their time will come.

Folks, does this help?

Today we surely see the evil everywhere. If not, I would hope your eyes will be opened.

Well I find it strange that we should pay for the sins of our ancestors.
It doesn't good or moral to me at all.
Though God probably has the power to decide what is moral. 'Solving' most of the problem.

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Though God probably has the power to decide what is moral. 'Solving' most of the problem.

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God has decided what is good and moral. It is written in His laws. His laws are written in the Bible. He did not abandon us to chaos.

Yep, I think that's where part of my problem lies.
I have trouble thinking an all good God would decide it was right to make us suffer for our ancestor's mistakes.
Making us suffer in the name of free will is one thing, this is quite another.

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I have trouble thinking an all good God would decide it was right to make us suffer for our ancestor's mistakes.

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In Adam and Eve, we are the same. The primal reaction to temptation. If you call yourself yourself better, but refuse to believe, then you are no better.

Again, we have sinned as humans, becuase God knows our hearts, and He knew the entire HISTORY AND PRESENT AND PAST before it even began. After the first bite of the fruit!!

Thus Jesus came to make us NOT suffer for our ancestors. Through His Blood we are sanctified. Through our own faith we are saved.

We still have death to yet face. AND The death of our souls to perdition if we persist in evil ways.. That is what evil would like for all of mankind to continue falling to. If Satan can deceive the masses, he feels he is better than God. To dupe the creations of God is his greatest ploy to get revenge on God.

Because all who follow evil shall be eternally with him, he who is misery does want company.

Open your heart and your eyes. What good do you get from not believing? But the good in believing is YOUR own victory over evil and death.

Peace!

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I have trouble thinking an all good God would decide it was right to make us suffer for our ancestor's mistakes.

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Dumbteen - I agree. I think this who original sin thing was crafted up by men as way to maintain control over the flock.

Dreamer - You are right when you say we are sinful. But I don't believe that it is because of our ancestors. I believe it is because we are the Saten cast onto this earth. And to once again agree with Dumbteen, (This was an evolutionary process expained in a religious matter).

Moreso - I believe what I was told in dream - It was the false god who created us (body and soul). But God will take us and remake us as if we were a ball of clay. (Jesus most likely is a part of that process). Facinatingly I just recently discovered that Edgar Cayce claimed that (we) a spirit created by God created our bodies and souls, and it took millons of years to do. He called it Involution.

But - I cannot prove what I believe, it's just looking at the scriptures from a different direction from a different perspective.

I like your belief - because you don't believe in the this "you are saved by faith not works" garbage. Unlike most other Christians, you will most likely follow Jesus - and that is good.

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Moreso - I believe what I was told in dream - It was the false god who created us (body and soul). But God will take us and remake us as if we were a ball of clay. (Jesus most likely is a part of that process). Facinatingly I just recently discovered that Edgar Cayce claimed that (we) a spirit created by God created our bodies and souls, and it took millons of years to do. He called it Involution.

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My religion believes something like that. We believe that we lived for thousands of years as spirit children trying to build up our mind and souls so that we might be prepared for this world. For in my religion, we believe that God created many worlds, and this was the most sinful, the only one that would kill Christ. All other worlds would have realizd he was the savior. Also, we believe that this past couple hundred years and the few to come are supposed to be the worst times in the world filled with the most sin.
If you think about that preordained spirit thing, think of this aswell. We were meant to be here. We were chosen for this time because we were some of the best of od's creations to be on the worst world and the worst time.

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I like your belief - because you don't believe in the this "you are saved by faith not works" garbage. Unlike most other Christians, you will most likely follow Jesus - and that is good.

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I believe that you are judged on what your intentions are. Faith is good, but it does not control choices. But faith compels one to try.
What you try for, success or no, if you try, this is how you are judged.

I would like to find out the laws of the universe for the idea of justice through generations.

Your question is big and the answer most likely would be found in nature. It would be a long journey, but most likely you will profit from it.

We did not inherit 'sin' from Adam and Eve, we only inherited imperfection.
The question here is not is God good or bad(which in itself is pretty stuipid), but wheather He exists or not.
There can never be solid evidence of God, there can never even be solid evidence that you exist. How can you prove your exitence? If I touch you, I can say that it is only a bunch of elestrical signals, so you have no proof.

Anyway, It' s pretty irrelevant wheather God is good or bad, he is neither. Some thing is Good if something bad is done. If a person does good and never sees bad, he will not know that he is doing good. In the same way, God does not do good or bad, he does the 'true' thing.

Why do earth quakes happen? Because everything obeys the laws of physics. They happen becasue of certain processes inside the earth, which are necessary.If it rains, it doesn't mean God is happy with us(oh puleez, that what people used to think 50- 60 thousand years ago).

Another thing. I beleve to some extent (as pointed out before) is that God obeys the laws He creates.
Imajine a computer programmer, who makes a game. while programming it, he decides that when the A button is pressed, the man inside jumps. While playing the game, the programmer then himself has to obey his rules, although he can in between change the configuration a little bit to make a correction or something.

Elemental, could you explain you question of justice through generations a little bit.

Yeah, sorry for leaving that vague.

I was wondering why God would punish the decendants of some sinners. The decendants themselves did not commit the sin.
But I think I answered it to myself earlier this week.

Most of you have heard I believe in the body, heart, mind, and soul as the four keys to an existing person. I believe that the mind is to the body as the heart is to the soul in a way. But the main thing is that I believe the soul is the same as a body, but in that different kind of way, if you get what I mean.
This now has to do witht the laws of the universe:

Just as with a body, when one would take drugs, or abuse their body in certain ways, they themselves would have physical problems. And because of that, there would be a mutation in their children, and that problem would be stuck in the DNA until it was determined recessive, or if it was healed in some way.
That would be like the soul. If one does something as a crime against the universe, then their soul would have some problems with it. Those problems would remain in the soul's "genes" and when the soul, in it's mysterious way, bring a new soul to this world, then that soul has an imprint in a way of the soul's "genetic pattern". Until it is determined recessive or is healed.

This is jsut a theory, but it makes sense to me. It is another law of Gods. And also, it brings a thought to me that God does not always choose judgement on people. He does not say "I don't like you so I will throw a lightning bolt at you and your decendants". It is more like, he made the laws, and now those laws act upon themselves to react to the effects of the universe. It is a universal law to reap what you so, and maybe have it imprinted on your existence.

I hope that made sense.

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Anyway, It' s pretty irrelevant wheather God is good or bad, he is neither. Some thing is Good if something bad is done. If a person does good and never sees bad, he will not know that he is doing good. In the same way, God does not do good or bad, he does the 'true' thing.

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It pretty much goes along with this.