meditation

this is what's going on here

after a lifetime of seeking (meditation, therapy and the like), I've finally seen the uselessness of it

there is nothing to seek, nothing to improve, all is here and now as it is, perfect as it is, and every method is not only a waste of time, but a way to try to avoid what it is

all the so called spiritual teachers and therapists are very cunning people, they get power and money, and what they sell is rubbish

Interesting, I've heard plenty take your stance, and plenty express some form of "successes" from such practices.

I have now sat sternly in both camps myself.

Two main questions that come to me in reference to you and your position are...

1. What did you hope to gain that you feel you have not in these pursuits?

2. Do you take this position from a perspective of a happy well adjusted person, or a bitter and or depressed person? Or some other in between state that you could better define?

I have found that in relatively brief experience with such things very profound and powerful experiences and effects.

But some of my experiences have been in realms that may be something that you were not aware of, seeking, or allow for even the possibility of.

Which is part of the importance of question 1. to my understanding of your position.

So if you are willing, I would love to have you elaborate your position

thank you Decius for your welcome !

quote:

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What do you feel were the purported benefits of meditation that you are now denouncing, and more specifically, do you believe it is possible that rather than all meditation being useless, the general and popular notion of meditation that people make money off of is false?

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I say ALL methods are useless and misleading,

I put under criticism the whole concept of spirituality, as a way to reach for something that already is the case. In that effort to reach, a waste of time and energy. and what is worst, the false idea that there is something to reach or to improve is misleading

when is seen that in life there is no goal every effort to change anything drops by itself...no need to hope, there is no hope either, no need to cling to any method or technique ...these are remedies that provide solution for a "sickness" that is only imaginary...the false idea that inside the body there is a person

Ironwood

quote:

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What did you hope to gain that you feel you have not in these pursuits?

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basically truth. I was not looking for power trips. I just wanted to know my real nature. I met Masters talking about emptiness as real nature, which was very interesting and I then discovered it was true, but then these masters were providing methods and techniques. they were assuming their emptiness was better than mine. that there was a way to reach to that emptiness. they were assuming there was and I and a you, which I have seen is false.

furthermore, these so called masters and teachers and therapists were proposing "spiritual experiences". an experience is something that happens, interesting as it is, but it is not the point. a good drug gives the same effect.

thirst and love for truth, I would say, was and is the reason of my seeking, of the dropping of all seeking, of this sharing

quote:

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Do you take this position from a perspective of a happy well adjusted person, or a bitter and or depressed person? Or some other in between state that you could better define?

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after nearly 20 years of abuse, it's obvious that the person here is very angry, and it will take some time to adjust

yet there is also a kind of happiness because now there is freedom

Do you have any passions, pursuits, such as the truth as you mention?

What about the limits of human potential? Seeing information from senses and experiences that offer more truth beyond our limitations, including physical limitations.

This is what I utilize any form of meditation for.

Just like the internet or reading in general I expose myself to more and more information and experience to help further seek truth and personal empowerment, especially empowerment over my fears and those who would harm me.

If you have any will to share, what kind of abuse?

You say spirituality is reaching for something that already is, depending on your meaning I would likely agree, however, that would include reaching things that the five senses hold us from, yes?

Decius I see the originary "abuse" in the false concept there is a person inside the body

all trainings work on the person, re-inforcing the concept of that illusory existence, it is an endless game

the person cannot be healed because the person is the illness

I can't see a good or a bad training, the concept of training itself is seen here as misleading

meditation goes maybe a step forward trying to witness the person, but still is the person trying to do something, it doesn't work

the ordinary ego grows up to spiritual ego, and this seems even worse

Ironwood

no all passions have kind of dropped (music, women for instance) yet there is no depression of boredom, any little thing is very interesting. I love my cats and I love having them around me. I like to work and I like to rest. I like to go sometimes with the bike around

I perceive the senses very intensely and to me what they offer is complete in itself, I don't see there is anything more interesting

I've had strong experiences with drugs in the past as well as strong "spiritual" experiences with meditation techniques, but what I see now is that any experience is just what it is, not so important, just as a thought happens, an emotion happens, an action happens...they happen by themselves, there is nobody doing them

maybe the (false?) concept that there should be more limits the endless human potential to just enjoy whatever is the case, even boredom, even being alone

about the abuses, it's quite a long story...I've been an Osho disciple for many many years, and I could write several books on that kind of experience, mostly very much unpleasant

Decius I am very much informed and yet I don't believe in it at all...is this the reason why I should shut my mouth?

I say that meditation is not useful, and I think I have all the experience and the right to express my reasons

I see nothing wrong with enjoying freedom and the physical senses, and I do not think they should be dismissed by any means.

Conversely, I see people generally dismiss our main non physical sense or senses and disagree with that.

To fully experience life, one would need to experiece all senses. It is not a mandate of course, one could easily and happily go without various senses as many do for many reasons.

But for someone like myself who has a desire to seek various truths and to understand the nature of all things, this extra sense seems potentially very useful.

The only improvements upon myself I seek from such practices is better control over myself and my negativities, and openning closed doors, unlocking whatever potential this life offers.

The person or self arguement you make seems relatively moot, just as you suggest.

Whether we are just conscious energy experiencing itself as parts made from the whole, or something else, is indeed what it is, ultimately irrelevant.

But so is existance.

So, as you state, enjoying life is the key.

I enjoy exploring and learning, nature and the "supernatural". I also seek to find ways to quell some of the organized maliciousness of those who abuse power as well as empower myself and others.

These are my drivers. I simply seek all the tools I have available, and to use them. Especially any tools that bypass certain physical roadblocks imposed by others.

Experiences are just experiences, but they are also sources of information and perspective.

If you have come to the conclusion that you have reached the only perspective you need or desire in order to live how you like, that seems reasonable.

Goals are choices, if you choose not to have any, so be it.

But surely you don't believe that this invalidates others' choices to accomplish various chosen goals or feats within this life other than just being happy living it, do you?

Therefore, meditation as you state serves a purpose for experience and added perspective, perhaps even an avenue to "spritual" or non physical sensory experience and further perspective.

And a seemingly reasonable notion of an improvement, to me, is finding more happiness through increased control over negativity.

Meaning to me that I don't think I share your degree of cycnicism towards meditation.

Does that seem sensible enough? Can you add perspective that you think I am missing or not taking into account?

If you are willing, I would appreciate any challenge to yourself to give even a summary of the nature of your abuse mentioned.

As well, any stories of interesting experiences derived through meditations and drugs are of interest to me.

I appreciate your engagement thus far.

This thread inspired me to get back into meditating.

When I was in high school I used to do it a lot. I used it as a way to deal with all the frustrations of early adult hood, as a kinda escape. I quit doing it after awhile though. I think it was because once I got in the world of working and paying rent, I lost a lot of my creativity.

That loss in creativity is actually what initially attracted me to Vigil, because she was my age and had a somewhat similar start to life, yet retained all of her creativity.

Last night I decided to change a lot of things about myself that cause anxiety. Its as if I am in a constant battle with anxiety and the things that cause it. Society, drugs, video games, people, work, all of it.

I've changed the way I approach dealing with it, and it led me to an inclination of getting back into meditating. Back into my health, my art, all kinds of stuff.

After a small meditating session I felt like I was a little more in touch with myself, that I could communicate to myself better.

Mostly though, I use meditation as a game. I have no need of it for my problems, which I know mediation can be a great tool in dealing with pain, I just choose to deal with pain in a different way, which leaves room for more fun applications of meditation.

What other applications of meditation are there, other than healing pain and spiritual ascension?

I when Sleepingwraith and I used to be friends, we would meditate together, go outside and fight lol.

It was always pretty fun lol.

Decius
you talk so much nonsense, and you are administrator in this forum?

you are just an arrogant young man you have to grow a bit to discuss things with me

You come across as a bitter man, angry for losing his time - a lifetime as you described - and when approached critically by someone who in your eyes has more lifetime left than you do, you feel that loss of time pressing into you so much more. Because somehow, if this 'younger' man recognizes something you did not at his age, then perhaps you believe that you could have known then too, hence being tricked by these monks was not just their fault. You had something to do with it too. But what you fail to identify within you is what was the reason you sought meditation to begin with. And so when Decius brings up a reason, such as finding god, you are bewildered because you don't want to acknowledge to yourself why you chose to go towards meditation. And in the end, the reason you did will have something to do with a pain in your life that you are trying to repress.

I have reacted because Decius expresses himself in a way that made me react, and it was interesting - sorry for it

I don't believe anybody can choose anything, so to go to meditation just happened. more than god I remember I was very much interested in sex and in those places it's very easy to have sexual dates

but I am not interested in therapy

I told you my position what is yours

Magicoarezzo; your problem is quite simple as no doubt you are aware.
And the reason you feel so angry at discovering 'Nothingness' via meditation is because you came face to face with the death of your Ego.

This Ego is nothing more than a limited puppet that lives inside your head and it wants to survive at all costs. You have been duped into believing it is yourself and that you need to defend its position... you imagine while doing so that your very survival is at stake - hence your need to have an argument.

The argument drums up even more energy for your Ego – it is getting stronger and you will feel depleted! But remember that the Ego is not you – you are just the Energy donor that keeps it alive. It is cunning and doesn't give a fuck about you and will drain you dry of energy with every tick of the clock.

If you read this you will no doubt hate me and wish to fight back (or you could just hit the hide tab and ignore everything I said) but its all just fighting and arguments and avoidances that in each and every case will only serve to strengthen the Ego.

So go ahead
You (not I nor your Ego) will pay the price and then you will be just like every other mug that lives to support that which you hate.

Wake up!

Chiron some of what you say sounds true

the point is that "I" did not discover nothingness through meditation

oh, not at all

nothingness happened here by itself

now is clearly seen that neither meditation nor therapy have any use

this is the topic I would like to discuss here

about "my" anger it is not so important, it is part of some emotions happening in nothingness as anything else

the position of the therapist: manipulating the fact that there are emotions, so there are things to be solved, to be processed...so much bullshit

but of course, to go to work is hard, it is better manipulating people doing the therapist or the meditation teacher

why should I hate you or fight back? not at all, there is no more identification with the illusory ego here

if someone thinks that not being identified with the ego equals being aloof and without emotions...this is the position of the guru...another manipulative trick...


what I see very clearly is that meditation is used by the ego in order to reach "somewhere", and it's misleading