meditation - Page 2

Magic, I tend to agree with your cynicism regarding therapy and the following of spiritual gurus.
Also with your statement that in general neither meditation nor therapy are of any use. This is because the ego has slipped in through the back door of your mind and will use therapy (oriented around stories that seek justification for the hang ups in life) and meditation, which is viewed as a boring destination particularly if you have been manipulated by the cunning of your ego and its determination to survive even at your cost. This in turn will lead you to manipulate others and engage in many other distractions. But in the end the ego is still sucking you dry of energy and even to the point where your anger feels right and justifiable.

You will of course be inclined to fight back – but this is merely an egoic standpoint in its bid for survival.
Notice also that your ego has chosen to position me in opposition to you - as 'aloof' or without emotion (a favorite trick of the ego is to convince you that emotions = pain = the evidence that you are truly alive.

But what you should see very clearly is that your ego is standing in your way of and interfering in your attempt to escape it (via meditation) by convincing you it is nothing (of value) or a goal to be attained (the ego is always goal oriented).

It is not. It is your natural born right and the true seat of power.
You have temporarily forgotten this and your ego has managed to convince you to fund its own cause instead. You are being used and it doesn't give a fuck about you, it only wants your precious energy to survive.

PS I am not superior to you in any way at all, and only speak from personal experience not from the perspective of teacher.

You have been lulled into sleep and are having a bad dream (along with the rest of the world) while your bank account is being raided.
Which is why I say 'Wake up!' which is not said as insult but to remind you that your energy is funding that which shows up in your life.
Its difficult to take responsibility for the crap we have bought but we cant move on unless we do.

So if you are happy as is, then stick with it no problem.
Why then the anger??

anger happens as many more things happen, without any reason

it's the shadow of the illusory character, and functions here as an engine

let's say I happen to enjoy sharing

maybe it's an emanation of compassion, the more this message is spread the better

Ironwood

thank you for your honesty

I don't see there is anything supernatural

natural is already super

this is why I dislike very much any kind of spirituality or therapy

they are abusive, they say something very wrong, they make people think that they can grow, that there is more than just this

there is not

first of all there is no person, the person is just a concept

in nothingness thoughts happen ,feelings happen, actions happen
they belong to nobody, they come out of nothingness, they disappear into nothingness

the person, the false concept there is a person, an ego, an individuality, is all illusory (maya)

once seen this you can easily see there is no free will, no possibility of choosing, no goal

such a relaxation

the ego obviously laughs about it, what kind of answer is this?

the spiritual therapeutical teacher dislike it, what is he or she going to sell to people then?

no control, no extra senses, no power, no mistakes, no regrets, no responsabilities, there is nothing

meditation is a waste of time and energy, there is nothing to seek, all is here perfect as it is

you say you feel better...abuse is to persuade someone to make his prison cell nicer and more comfortable, instead of showing him that the prison is illusory

Going to have to ask you to be more specific.

Not believing there is supernatural means what to you, because what is even natural to me includes all existance in all its forms and dimensions, I only use the term supernatural as common terminology to describe that which is generally referred to as beyond the standard frequency range of the 5 senses.

Just like infrared and ultraviolet light spectrums exist outside of our limited spectrum of "visible light", but are no less natural.

More than just this, again, I will need clarification.

abusive? for stating something is wrong if it is not, perhaps, again, depending on your meaning.

stating that growth beyond average state of existance however, I will likely dissagree with you. Because just like most people will never become astronauts, microbiologists, world record weight lifters, professional singers, etc. meeting various extremes of human potential, it is equally unlikely that most people will develop natural intuition or psychic oriented abilities or out of body travel.

Not that these things are not possible, but most will not develop and hone those skills by working on them.

Do you understand?

I may come back to your other points later, but must depart for the moment and feel comfortable I have asked my most important questions and made my more important statements I would like feedback on.

I have been exploring for about 20 years

I have met hundreds of people claiming they talked to spirits, create reality through the power of thoughts, went out of body and travel, could "feel" this and that through psychic abilities

they were ALL liars - some were just victims of other liars, some did it on purpose

frauds

to me such things simply do not exist

why should they? life is not enough magic the way it is?

to search for something extraordinary reveals one cannot see the extraordinariness of ordinariness

to be a professional musician, an astronaut, this is very different, this is to explore the human potential

the former I define abuse, lies , frauds - the same the priests do with religion, to sell something nobody can own because it does not exist

Ah, now I am beginning to see more clearly where you are coming from, its what I was thinking to a degree but now I'm more certain.

I understand your skepticism, I shared it.

But then I started lucid dreaming and then had an out of body experience. And everything about such a skeptic paradigm began to change.

And I've only been making such explorative efforts for about a year now.

Untill it happens to you, and if you are lucky enough to witness the extremely powerful and undeniable sensations
that I did, that apparently not all do, but most do according to general research, your posistion will be understandable.

But for me such things were never complete impossibilities, in fact due to many factors I believed such phenomen at least possible, and at times probable.

But my main sources of doubt were mainstream science, religions, and the fact that I didn't know people who made such claims, or that I paid attention to if they did.

And of course, primarily, because it hadn't happened to me.

There is nothing more extraordinary about psychic phenomena, it is seen this way because of social factors.

Your notions that it is impossible because you haven't experienced it and because it seems unreal or supernatural due to social labeling and stigmas are both common and the most commonly disproved posistions taken as science progresses on any number of subjects. Not to mention going against endless ages of experience that are usually dismissed.

I think one of your biases against the notion is drugs. That they are somehow detractors from such possibilities because experiences as claimed are so similar.

Just as I would bet that your position on what dreams are and their significane is just as negative or dismissive.

But you would never deny that you dream I hope, or that you can see images "in your head" even if you're not looking at them.

The human imagination is also not widely or officially understood either. The notion that there is no reality involved in dreams and imagination or senses beyond the physical are not based on science or logic, they are assumptions mostly, and the true lies you speak of.

And I can tell you right now that the biggest detractor from you ability to succeed in these revelations is your denial of them.

If you allow for the possibility and believe that you can reach any potential available, whether you understand it or not, and accept that you don't understand everything, your doors will be open.

Your heartfelt desires and intentions are indeed your keys or your roadblocks. Or at least seem to have been the key for me.

And again, known physical reality is a wonder to me, but I would never delude myself into believing I know all of what exists and certainly not deny that which I can't know.

Existance itself is such a paradox that it has long since been obvious to me that nothing is impossible, and that the probable reality is that all things are possible if not probable, if you can imagine it it can be, in some way shape or form, or eventually in all.

Television, cell phones, and even radio were hocus pocus ideas at one time too sir, flight, a round earth.

Don't let the fact that some people lie and take advantage of others be the factor that denies you your full potential.

Don't buy into anything anyone says, but don't believe you have all the answers either, experience it for yourself.

But you have to want it and to allow yourself to believe you even have the possibility.

This has nothing to do with false promises of false realities, its about truly exploring, openning your mind, not closing it.

Ironwood

even a very powerful experience happens in nothingness - who is the dreamer? who goes out of the body? - the dream, the experience, they just happen, out of nothingness, to nobody

what you call skepticism is the very clear vision that anything just happens but there is nobody in or beyond the body-mind

it is far less and it is far more

I personally like drugs for the beautiful sensations they provide, like a sexy woman, some good food...nice things happening, enjoyable when they happen

spiritual experiences as well, something nice happening, without any reason or any goal, out of nothingness, to nobody

All irrelevant.

Life is what it is, experiences are what they are, and they are what we make them too.

You may claim to know that there is no one or no thing, but you have no knowledge of this "truth", you can't if you are nobody anyway.

Who is experiencing or why is irrelevant to the point that the experiences happen, as you say.

But where the no goal predetermination of life that you describe comes from and what its no goal purpose is is quite debateable.

Your words are empty and irrelevant if your premise is correct, and why would you bother to try to save people from abuse that is going to happen regardless of "anyone's" "wants" or "intentions" if they are going to happen anyway?

If there is no you enjoying nature as it is, why do you even bother defending what is natural or supernatural?

Who is the dreamer?

I have no idea, I almost don't care.

But the closest I've come to even attempting to understand, and what seems to make the most sense so far, is that the source of consciousness behind or resulting from existance is the who.

Who is the dreamer?

Good question and probably the only one of relevance in the big picture. A problem being that the dreamer cannot be defined in language and can only be alluded to.

This is because language is a mind-constructed, time bound event only useful for temporary (human) communication. It functions to organize and define our experience.
Every Thing is experience, and we process that experience through the lens of our mind.

Since we know that experience is a time bound event (animated by energy) – having a beginning, middle and an end, we also know that ultimately it will perish and this creates the struggle for survival.

No Thing wants to die as this renders experience ultimately meaningless. It is our mind that is searching for meaning while the dreamer is concerned with experience.

So who is the dreamer?
In the simplified terms of available language: it the energy that animates the dream.

P.S: Experience that is addictive is the most advanced form of slavery known to humankind. Small wonder I suppose that such addictions work in the province of the mind. And a bittersweet irony that those involved are mostly seeking enlightenment, just at an enormous cost – perhaps because they value it so highly?

the perception that I have is that there is no dreamer

the who, the ego,appears to be an abstraction, a concept

what is, is awareness, that doesn't belong to anybody

the separation is immaginary, the individuality is immaginary

about Ironwood the not enjoyng nature I wonder where do you pick that up - anything is very much enjoyed, because anything is extraordinary

things yes happen anyway - like the sharing and the discussion about this - happening by itself, with no purpose, goal, relevancy

If there is no dreamer, then who perceives the dream?
As it is empirically impossible to be simultaneously within the dream while outside observing it.

And awareness belongs to the dreamer - who is engaging with experience.

Separation exists in form, and form is imaginary, form is the dream.

So the purpose, goal and relevancy are therefore your own and may or may not be meaningful to others.

This discussion is not happening by itself. It is being kept alive by individual choice. The proof being that should we choose not to post replies – the discussion will die.

I said, if there is no YOU, no who, no dreamer, enjoying anything.

Imagination and illusions are as real as anything else.

Consciousness likely chose to split into seperate beings on purpose, to create different experiences and growth.

You have over simplified life and existance to the point of irrelevance, why do you bother to have this conversation, why do you bother to sustain your life?

You enjoy it.

Isn't that all that matters?

All of nature is natural, and nature is infinite, it is a concept. Therefore the paranormal exists and is perfectly natural, existance beyond that limited human understanding of the physical, pathetically limited, is quite natural and exists.

Your reductionist concept of who or what the who is, is correct in that we are part of a collective whole of conscious existance. But it is incorrect in that we are not able to be seperate too, if only temporarily and to a limited degree.

Goal and purpose is whatever we chose it to be, ultimate goal and purpose appears to be to grow, to learn and experience, or to ulitmately just be.

oh I'm sorry but there is no individual choice at all

you cannot choose to post a reply or not, it just happens!

the impulse to write happens, the impulse not to write happens, out of nothingness, to nobody

of course the ego cannot accept it, the ego says "I am! I meditate! I grow! I evolve! I choose!"

Even about this there is no choice, the concept of free will drops, by itself, if it happens, when it happens. And there is no way to persuade the ego to die by itself.

Yet "die before you die" - "I hope you die soon" - these are invitations coming from nothingness that could resonate with a "knowing" that could just say "Ah yes, this is it" or not

to the ego, though, it appears a threaten, and it is judged as false or "too simple"

Don't be sorry, just continue to enjoy irrelevance.

You seem to show a lot of concern and emotion for a person so in touch with your espoused truth, especially given the nature of this truth and the irrelevance it brings to existance.

yes ironwood you must have the idea of enlightened beings aloof sitting on a throne, with no emotions or with very little emotions. like if having emotions and concerns is the proof that something is not ok

"therapists" and "masters" use this trick to get customers

the ego thinks there is a need to become extraordinary, have superpower, super control, extra-ordinary capacities like getting out of the body and do astral trips...these are just hallucinations of the mind

I enjoy my emotions and my concerns just like anything else that happens

you seem to like the word "irrelevance" a lot

existence is perfect the way it is and truth is only one, whatever we may discuss about it, however the ego accepts to see its irrilevance or not