Save us from puritanical soul-torturing 'Green' people.

This is really getting me down at the moment. I mean really getting me down.

I simply do not agree with most of the green debate.

I feel it is born of a childish reluctance to accept the fact that they are going to die. Age, and die.

Like the planet will age and die.

Death, dying and rot are natural.

Disease and decay are natural.

And what exactly are we saving the planet FOR? Even if you buy the argument that we have the power to do that. Which I don't.

Everything is biodegradable before lava.

If the planet had had enough, it has the tools to deal with it, is what I'm saying.

But I digress.

This post is not about that. This post is about a certain archetype that has held us all in chains for thousands of years. And one that all too easily has found its way into the mindset of being 'green'.

This archetype is the Puritan.

It wears the clothes of godly goodness, but is not God.

It is a soul harvester. That is the price you pay for allowing it to possess your heart. It will take your soul. In a very real sense, because your motivation will not be your own. It will belong to a set of values embodied in this archetype, giving it life, and power. And to all intents and purposes, a controlling influence in the affairs of man. Where it certainly does not belong.

Being green has fast become the religion of our times, but is no different in its effects upon our hearts, minds and souls, than the medieval church. It's subliminal control has penetrated how we relate to each other, has become intimately entangled with our valuation of each other, amongst even the closest of friends and family.

But it is all borrowed.

These arguments, for and against, are just hats that some have decided to wear. A club, for being on the right side of God.

Doing good, in other words.

But 'doing good' as a modus operandi, is a myopic and dangerous thing. It can at times come with a borrowed self-confidence that can, in the wrong hands, be akin to the desire to jail and torture.

And history is full of these characters. Men and women who have bullied and controlled us with what Lenny Bruce called the 'dirty lie'. The dirty lie that politics has ever been anything other than corrupt, that a man who abstains from sex is the holiest among us, that we are here to aspire to live as saints.

Swift had it right, at the end of Gulliver's Travels, where Gulliver is crushed to despair that he cannot remain among the Whinnim. But he realises his grand mistake, which is the thing that sets his soul free, that as much as he is Whinnim, he cannot escape his Yahoo nature.

He is a human being, for sure, a Whinnim, with all the best potential attributes to integrate into his spirit that this entails. But he is an animal too.

And we forget that about ourselves, continuously.

Hidden inside that realisation, is a lot of god-given self-forgiveness. It is an escape from the clutches of a Puritan archetype that seeks to enslave and kill us. Hypnotised to do it to ourselves, by what is really only a thought pattern.

A satanic thought pattern, wearing the mask of God.

I understand where you're coming from Ophion but I can't say that I don't understand where the green cause is coming from either. If we look at the earth as a mother common to all of us (which in a very real sense it is), how ungrateful are so many of us that not only do we not try to repay the favor of being born, but apathetically allow for disproportionate magnitudes of decay and destruction?

I guess it comes down to how we view life - a gift or a curse. Many people these days view it as the latter, and rightly so - their lives are miserable.

I can't help but look at my own body as a microcosm of the macrocosm that is the earth. A few years ago I was depressed, angry and bored with life - and you know what, RIGHTLY SO! I would sit in front of the computer all day and fool myself into thinking that's what I wanted to do. I was out of shape, had no direction and all my relationships were withered pieces of dog shit. I'm still releasing a lot of those feelings. But one day I consciously decided to get control over my life and slowly started taking steps in that direction. As I began to take more care of my body and get my shit together, the more grateful I became toward life - and in the condition I'm now in (which is in no way the ideal of health), I genuinely care about the planet. I'm sincerely sad about the unique animals that are going extinct all the time and at a quicker pace each day. It makes me want to grab some people by shoulders and scream LOOK!!!!!! LOOK!!! DON'T YOU SEE???

Society at large prizes death over life and this is why we're in this shit pile. You want evidence for this claim? Take a look at how many sorry deadbeat saps you can find in any given town in any given bar on any given night who would rather spend their time getting shit faced listening to radio music-trash than spend time with their family - and the rest you can find wasting away in an armchair in front of a TV or computer.

I understand that they were mistreated when they were younger or something - who the hell wasn't???????????? And some obviously have had it harder than others. Is this really an excuse to slide into complete resignation? It's fucking feeling sorry for themselves!!!! Make steps to improve your life the way YOU want it to be. Find out what would bring you TRUE fulfillment. The time of inaction is over. Shit needs to get done.

And you know what - I would feel sorry for all these miserable people - I genuinely would - the same way I feel sorry for animals that get skinned alive and raised in slaughter houses and fed their dead relatives and whole expanses of rainforests being chopped down and legions of sharks being fished to the point of extinction because their fins represent manliness to some asian countries - except for one condition - they created all this misery. That's right. They CHOSE this life for themselves. They deserve every bit of it.

Will I help someone who asks for it? Yes, of course. I'm not inhuman. I have feelings for these people. I want everyone to be happy. But you can't force someone to make better choices for themselves.

All the best,
Chris

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I understand where you're coming from Ophion but I can't say that I don't understand where the green cause is coming from either. If we look at the earth as a mother common to all of us. (which in a very real sense it is),
how ungrateful are so many of us that not only do we not try to repay the favor of being born, but apathetically allow for disproportionate magnitudes of decay and destruction?

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yes, I too wonder how "green" relates these feelings? (puritanical soul-torturing green people)
But you are correct in your assessment about nature; in your statement

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Like the planet will age and die.
Death, dying and rot are natural.
Disease and decay are natural.
And what exactly are we saving the planet FOR? Even if you buy the argument that we have the power to do that. Which I don't.

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And what exactly are we saving the planet FOR? Even if you buy the argument that we have the power to do that. Which you don't, nor do I but perhaps if enough of you (plural form) come together & work toward this goal then perhaps "we" can?

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This post is not about that. This post is about a certain archetype that has held us all in chains for thousands of years. And one that all too easily has found its way into the mindset of being 'green'.

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Yes, the art of misdirection (lies,deceit, misrepresentation, etc) those seeking power over others; to control others into betraying the very cause they seek to serve is as long as the history of mankind.
Yes, the earth has supplied our needs, fossil fuel formed in pools beneath the crust of the earth . . and one day we will find that we have exhausted that supply.
Sounds like the smart move would be to conserve that resource, while we find suitable alternates for it?

Wayback........

If I am correct in my assessment of nature, why does it feel to me as though you are guilty of a common human failing, of seeing yourself as intellectually outside of it?

You are not outside of nature. Every motivation you have is part of it. There is not one moment of your enacted will that lies outside of the momentum of Creation's will. It is this stance that will dissolve a lot of percieved dualities for you. For the better.

Thinking, however, is all your own. And the debate that ensues from this, with family and friends, is just a value based game we play with each other, of who's a right person and who's a wrong person. Not one blade of grass gets saved during this interraction. It's just pecking order, pack behaviour.

It is fear that is the primary urge behind saving the planet. A sort of anxiety based fear that you are surrounded by reckless destructive people you percieve to be your intellectual inferiors, and thus in need of your will to control them.

Love does not behave this way.

Hmm, the military bootcamp at LaJune (sp) has recently come under fire as they have found that the water supply was contaminated. Strange isn't it that those serving in the field are provided with potable water (water buffallo =>water tanks) yet those on a military base in the HomeLand were not?Why do you think that this happened? The horror stories about dumping toxic waste, poisoning local children, families, live stock, did they really happen? Ah, yes lets see now. Yes, they did dump toxic waste but the government fined them but it was cheaper to pay the fines than fix the problems? Let alone deal with the damage already done so they continued dumping? Then of course it is cheaper to play the legal game so . . class action suits followed, all to buy time for greater profit.
Ah, these things are just the product of an over-active imagination, right

Wayback......

Who on earth said anything about imagination?

Do you not hear the carping need to dominate in your voice?

Who said sufferring, death and decay had to adhere to some kind of angelic order? THAT sounds hellish to me.

Chaos is chaos. What you describe...how it affects your heart and mind, is your unrealised spirit crying out for explanation. You feel disempowered by what you see and hear about.

Hence the impotence laced anger, and the need to lash out when you are called to account.

You are playing the same game I described of others in my previous post.

What on earth makes you think that that sort of pecking order behaviour is a route to anywhere but personal power mongery?

And that you skulk behind the issue you spoke about, using it as some kind of god given sword of light to battle your subconscious impotence that I'm giving the space to manifest, is really silly.

How could anyone disagree with what you say. I don't disagree with its awfulness one iota.

But if you could still yourself enough to be receptive, you would know that this is not what I am talking about at all.

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Thinking, however, is all your own. And the debate that ensues from this, with family and friends, is just a value based game we play with each other, of who's a right person and who's a wrong person. Not one blade of grass gets saved during this interraction. It's just pecking order, pack behaviour.

It is fear that is the primary urge behind saving the planet. A sort of anxiety based fear that you are surrounded by reckless destructive people you percieve to be your intellectual inferiors, and thus in need of your will to control them.

Love does not behave this way.

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yes, you have a point in that I don't really comprehend what you are talking about here.
But I am glad to hear that you do agree that we are destroying the ability of the 'our planet' to substain life. It sounded like you were attempting to justify 'our abusive nature'?
Ignorance? All through out the ages, mankind has warred amongest themselves yet we still go to war filled the notion that we will rid ourselves of war by conquering all.
Yes, it is true that I use a automobile which contributes to the destruction of the environment! In my area we are presently experience an outbrake of red tide (higher than normal) yet the fish kill seems to be less than previous years? Perhaps this is because there are less fish therefore less fish dying
Old saying 'Water, water everywhere but not a drop to drink' especially pointed statement when you consider that I live in an area surrounded on three sides by salt water. We have severe water shortages so they are discussing plans to recycle waste water for human consumption We have a recycled water program now for lawn sprinkling . . . well they have such on the next street over now but my street doesn't as the recycled volume doesn't meet the demand sounds like we should be looking into purifing salt water into fresh to supply our needs & leave the recycled sewer water for the trees? Barely providing for 'our present need' for clean water, local government, etc seem to be more intent on more growth & prosperity than meeting the needs of those already here
Oh, ya being human I sometimes become angry & frustrated . . sometimes I even transfer that anger, venting it on unrelated issues.
PS:As 'our society' tends to be industry & urbanalization causing increasing heating of the atmosphere causing the polar ice caps & other fresh water storage sheds to melt, increasing the volume of 'our oceans' then using salt water as a source of fresh water supply would have a positive effect on that problem as well

The opposition to the green party generally hinge their arguments on that fact that death and decay are inevitable. In a metaphorical sense, this situation is similar to a young man putting the nails in his own coffin because "one day he's going to die."

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The opposition to the green party generally hinge their arguments on that fact that death and decay are inevitable. In a metaphorical sense, this situation is similar to a young man putting the nails in his own coffin because "one day he's going to die."

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Ah, coffin nails => slang for cigarettes, ya & I am a smoker too
The opposition to the green party generally hinge their arguments on that fact that death and decay are inevitable. So why hasten it
Take from life according to the need, not the greed . .

Gives you a sort of buzz, doesn't it gentlemen?

Seeing yourself on the side of right.

But you didn't create the debate, did you?

You just joined in.

Which means you haven't realised anything yourself.

Don't turn this thread into a back slapping avoidance of my original point. I'm sure there are other threads you can vent whatever it is you feel you are venting.

I actually don't care about either side of your argument.

Stick to the point.

It's hard to tell exactly what you're trying to argue here based on your OP. Could you sum up your argument in a couple sentences?

Put simply,

you do not know that you are right, but behave as though you do.

And setting yourself up as right immediately makes others wrong. But you interpret all counters to your arguments as being on the opposite polarity to the original reaction in YOUR mind, fuelled by the fears felt in your heart. But if the tide cannot be turned, to entertain your view for a moment, have you even wondered how that situation might be navigated? Probably not. Which means you have not calmly objectified your aquired knowledge from any other side than the emotive.

You have a reactionary spirit, which means something in your intent is not your own.

When people talk about saving the world, what they never consider is that perhaps the only real power they actually have, is to save THEIR world. But the ego doesn't think that way. It wants to be seen saving THE world.

How childish.

And this is where simple monkey politics comes in; pack animal pecking order behaviour.

So what, if someone thinks that you are so wrong it's laughable? This shouldn't affect you. But it does.

The tragic examples of what you percieve to be man's evil, merely denote where you stand in relation to something you have been told. A set of images in your mind that your heart has reacted to.

Maybe things are supposed to run out?

But you dare not contemplate this because you fear change. And fear of change is ultimately fear of dying.

So how can your view be trusted? You don't know for sure that you are right. And what you do know you cannot discuss without feeling contempt for anyone who might hold an opposing view.

I daresay the dinosaurs had a few issues with being wiped out.

But you might interpret this, dismissively, as me being facetious. And in that moment have set up your own personal pecking order.

There is no way for me to put all this simply, though I gave it a shot. The Puritan archetype is something I am exploring only now in my life. Only now, because I have not felt its presence until now. So no doubt I will post more on this in the future.

But for now understand this, the world will never stop fighting until each individual drops the notion that it is a laudable thing to be right and good.

Right and good, are subjective, relative experiences.

What is right and good for you, may be the polar opposite for what is right and good for another. But setting yourself up as the universal arbiter means you can be manipulated.

Manipulated by a puritan inside you. Something that tells you you are right, when perhaps you really do not know for sure, or indeed at all.

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When people talk about saving the world, what they never consider is that perhaps the only real power they actually have, is to save THEIR world. But the ego doesn't think that way. It wants to be seen saving THE world.

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Ah you mean as in the Serenity Prayer?

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God, give me
1) 'the strength to change those things that I can';
2) ' to acceptance those things which I can not'; and
3) 'the wisdom to know the difference'.

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We may help to make change but in truth we can hardly change things about ourselves, let alone another

I think it is you, Ophion, who is the one who established his "rightness" from the very start. You were no doubt further encouraged by Decius' blessing.

Do you know for sure that the puritan archetype exists? What do you rely on to know? Your own observations from reality?

I am basing my opinion from my own observations of reality, and it's true that I could be wrong. I asked you to sum up your argument because it wasn't clear to me what you were arguing for in your OP. Instead you retreated and said there was no way you could do this - with 90% of the rest of the post evaluating me from your own (unsure) perspective of the issue (or are you completely 100% sure of it's truthfulness and everyone else is wrong who disagrees with you?)

My guess about you is that you are an atheist, are pretty well read which may have caused a bit of a superiority complex in you. Many of your friends think you're really smart and you're not a fan of small talk.

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But for now understand this, the world will never stop fighting until each individual drops the notion that it is a laudable thing to be right and good.

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Okay, from here it seems you don't think right and good exist - and if they do, only from a relative perspective. I think they exist from a relative perspective myself. So, each relative sutuation has a right and good solution. Why should we not strive for this?

How would you define good and right? Do you think I'm missing the point of all this? If so why and what's the point?

First off, Chris, I apologise if I have come across as attacking. I tend to speak in capital letters, with the intent of starting fires, so to speak. I like to get the blood up, both in myself and in others. I find it exhilerating to do so, as it leaves no time for complacency, and new thought and direction appear almost magically.

Your perception of me is not far off the mark, except with your observation of atheism. It is because of my spirituality that I have arrived at this particular archetype.

My father, when he was alive, was, in his spare time outside of selling books for a living, a christian lay-preacher. I was raised in a christian environment, but in no way a stifling one. My father and I would argue much about religion when I was a teenager, especially after I expressed the wish at twelve years old, that I didn't want to go to church anymore, or have anything to do with it. Not in some angry sense, but because around that time (and I was actually in the choir!) I just woke up and wondered what on earth I was doing there. It all seemed so absurd to me. And, like I say, I would then argue a lot with my father about the shortcomings I percieved in his faith. So much so, that my mother took me aside once and quietly told me to stop because I was upsetting him.

This conversation affected me profoundly. I loved my father deeply, and the thought that I was capable of hurting him made me feel sad and ashamed. From that day I grew to develop my own path, while also now and then seeing things from my father's somewhat Pauline filtered version of Christianity.

Being the son of a preacher man, so to speak, meant that religion, faith and spirituality were to become a major part of my being.

That, and nearly drowning when I was twenty five.

There's nothing like death to bring the afterlife and notions of God into focus.

And the route I took, the exploration I embarked on, was deep into the realms of drugs, yoga, past-life regressions, and exorcisms.

I wanted to understand death. And the route I took, forced me to face three further cultural taboos - fear, madness, and sex. And because of my wonderful childhood, with parents who loved me and allowed for innocence, I always had a strong rope, psychically speaking, to pull me back from the various hells I visited. And because of my innate sense that Life is far more in hand than we give it credit for (which is faith in action), which I owe in part to my father I believe, I have an awareness of what others call God, which I know without doubt surpasses their comprehension.

I do not claim God. Like the priests all over the world have done. How can you comprehend the incomprensible?

But............paradoxically perhaps.........

This is exactly what we are here to do.

Little by little.

As much as we can take at any given moment, and no more.

Absolutely I feel right and good exist. But you must understand they ONLY exist because they have an opposite.

Evil defines Good. And Good defines Evil.

They are helpless without each other. They are nothing without each other. They need each other.

And my path led me to this realisation, and forced on me the task of resolving this duality, tantalizing me with what might lie beyond it.

This does not make me special (although at times it absolutely does, so stick that in your pipe!). Others have reached this terrain. But so few that, at times, there is no point of reference but my own.

The Puritan appeared around this time.

And it appeared because I started to have the suspicion that something VERY powerful keeps us in the cycle of Good and Evil, forcing us to continually define ourselves in relation to these two forces. And that try to leave the cycle, you come up against not Evil, but Good.

Of course it is an obvious worldy thing to renounce Evil. Who but the basest would argue?

But leave Good?

Surely this is madness!

And you would be amazed at the perspectives that ensue, once you reach and hold this position.