Problems with God - Page 4

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how can I debate with someone who has no desire to listen to anyone else's point of view without attacking them?

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You stop taking offense and stop worrying about if someone "attacks" you or what you say.

Tell me what I've said that you disagree with and why you disagree with it. Maybe regale us with why you say it hurts you. Relate it to your life experience if you wish, how you came to the beliefs and opinions you express are under attack.

I do suggest you stop taking personal things people say when they obviously don't know you personally.

You don't have to do anything, but if you want to, just start talking, express these emotions and ideas that have brought you to tears, open yourself to all the varied sorts of criticism, accolades, and inspiration there is to be found here.

I don't feel bad that I inspired strong emotion in you, even if you consider it negative, I have a feeling you faced some pretty negative stuff, but I bet it wasn't really from me. And I bet you may have grown a little stronger and wiser in the process, you seem like you have your head on fairly straight.

But man do you hold a grudge. I admire your persistence though. Feel free to chime in with some questions or comments rather than continually insisting I don't care or want to know about anything.

I would very much like to know what exactly stirred you so deeply and why? To see if you know why as well.

I find that people have a very difficult time, not so much understanding a concept in question here, but facing it.

Hmm. This is an interesting topic this 'Problems with God'.
I love to debate with people so that i can see there point of view on things. I love to argue with Ironwood because he is the kind of person who doesnt shut up under deress. I do respect peoples point of view on things. I dont try to take offense to anything, actually its kind of hard because I am very curious about what in the world other people think. Some times things do get out of control for everybody. Now my mind is set toward agrue then argue more.

So when you have people saying that religion is the only way to go. I say, why?
And when people say that there is no such thing as a god?
I say 'can you prove that?'
When people say that the bible is proof that god exists, I say 'How can you be sure that some old guy who wanted to create the fiction series of books did just start writing and call it the Holy Bible.?'
Irongwood: I did not realize that from your point of view my argueing was considered whining. I just had no idea that why a lot of people would want to question religion that much.
If you really have strong fealings about this discussion and you dont want to hear people critizice your religion Respectfully, ignore Ironwood. And maybe later on me.

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So when you have people saying that religion is the only way to go. I say, why?
And when people say that there is no such thing as a god?
I say 'can you prove that?'
When people say that the bible is proof that god exists, I say 'How can you be sure that some old guy who wanted to create the fiction series of books did just start writing and call it the Holy Bible.?'

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That's good stuff.

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I did not realize that from your point of view my argueing was considered whining

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I took you questioning why I asked questions that you felt can't have answers as whining, but I don't claim to have full understanding of your demeanor or posistion, I was going off rather brief and superficial observations and interpretations.

None the less, why I question people's belief is because there is very real issue with religious fundamentalism in the world. And to better understand and cope if not intervene if needed, I ask people what they believe, why, and do they understand where there beliefs come from and what that means and have they seen it all in context and all that jazz to help broaden the perspective of those who have not elected to use there mind but to give it away.

I question those who claim to have answers. Its funny how often it is that those who think they know whats best for everyone try to take over the world. And the not so funny thing about that is, they need a bunch of manipulatable sheeple to do it.

ironwood, I believe I asked for this to be closed for discussion. Please do not keep it going. The people you disagreed with most on the topic are sick of arguing about it and you have won. I hope that this satisfies you. We throw the white flag, YOU WIN! good luck in future battles and may you find some better calling in life than to argue all day with people who post things on this site.

Shut the fuck up.

Just for some who will never ask a valid question, not you sorceress, I see potential in you, religion itself is not bad, the good parts are indeed good, the bad parts are simply ones that need constant vigilance like any other inner demon issue faced with disinformation and or secrecy, intentional or not.

And I see someone needs to come out in a positive way, I'll let it be me.

Yes, I was strong and even negative in my posts, and this is in turn all you focused on or reacted to, so no debate ensued.

I take all blame for all my actions and even some of yours.

Just know that I was serious and honest about my concern, but it doesn't mean that any of you are the concern, again, I mentioned a line of logic that I react to because I don't like seeing a mind on the brink of such freedom and advancement only to be shackled by dogma's who all too often have inherent hate, judgement, racism, and exlcusivism. So many of the very things we think we have religion to get rid of.

But I know that it isn't the majority who are fundamentalists out to hurt others. But I'm facing a rise of another fundamentalist that is likely willing to brand those who think like me a traitor and or evil.

So this blind devotion and self convincing that is usually based on things others have told you to believe concerns me. We do create our own realities, and then those realities manifest in the world, and my stomach turns when I hear strong convictions of questionable conclusions that is guided by an unseen hand, the human hand behind religious beliefs, political beliefs, beliefs in facts of historical and current events.

Even the religions warn of this human malice, this is my concern ultimately, not the religion or the beliefs themselves, but any deceit and lies people end up choosing to believe, and more importantly follow and or fight for.

And to do this we must question, but yes, there are more productive and respectful ways to do it.

Ironwood- Yes I am an atheist. No, I am not afraid of the conseqences of there being a god, I have just never felt anything to sway me that way. I have not felt anything to sway me the way of chosen dis-belief either, I really just feel that there is nothing there. What I mean is that there has been no choice. I have thought of the idea of a God and if it were true, but the idea in the back of my head has always been no. How I know ther is no denial is because I have many good reasons to believe in a God, what with all the benefits and all. I am a very good person and I have been fucked very hard by very many people. I think that I will not be rewarded for it. The only thing that I will ever get is what I have earned, and I will not go to heaven for being such a good person, I will probably be fucked even more for this outlook. And though i do mind, I will not tell myself a truth so that the anger inside of me goes away. I will keep it. See, I have reasopn to believe in God, and I dont.

Ofcourse I have reason not to believe in God, but please trust me when I say that it has nothiung to do with how I feel and how i belive.

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please trust me when I say that it has nothiung to do with how I feel and how i belive.

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That makes for a pretty solid twist coming from the main paragraph.

I just wanted to say thank you to Iornwood and all of the others who have posted on this thread, which I discovered only today!!!

As I read through these posts, I have laughed out loud (not in mocking but with joy), and felt my old, cold, human heart ignite with such powerful love for humanity once again...

To Iornwood: in the humble opinion of my heart, you are a most gracious and majestic warrior, and I am not ashamed to admit I have fallen completely in love with the spirit you have expressed here! I am greatly inspired to be living in this world knowing people like yourself actually exist...

To Zyphon: you have on more than one occasion made me want to reach out and protect you (which is silly, I know).
But if I were your god (or had any influence over him), I would be sure to protect you from the demons...and you would know it, I would leave you no doubt!

To Sorceress: I recognize your anger, even though I believe its roots lie elsewhere than where you suppose. I commend your feistyness, and if I could influence your god, I would insist that he properly supported and took care of you. And that every promise ever made to you (from where ever) is immediately fulfilled!
(BTW, I also adore the irony in your choice of pseudonym)

And to every one: I realize my opinion may be of little consequence or interest, but I nevertheless wanted to say that your words (and therefore your spirits) have moved me into sending you all thoughts consisting of positive energy, and it's just plain good karma to have someone (christian or otherwise) send you good energy!