Problems with God - Page 3

I didn't realize before that I was insulting anyone, that was not my intention. I did certainly take some of the comments as an insult to people who have faith as a whole.

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Facing reality can be upsetting. Living in denial is not the answer. Hiding behind rituals of sacrifice to, in selfish desperation, try to save your soul from threats YOU CHOOSE to believe in, is anything but sensible, let alone righteous.

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Facing reality is upsetting? what reality? My reality is of a God, yours obviously isn't. I agree with Sorceress, we have very different reality's. We live in the same world with the same physics but i hardly believe that that is all there is to reality. My reality is of a world with the same physics and of a new world, a better world, and with a God who is loving and forgiving. I live by his rules not because of fear but out of love for him, and out of respect for him. I realize that it is quite evident you do not believe in this same God but you must realize that this is what I know, and what I base my life on. I'm sorry if I insulted you anywhere along the line, it was by no means supposed to be in that fashion.

fireangel

Since no one I'm in correspondence with here was able bypass defensive reactions and the resulting flawed assumptions to affect an intended response providing me with the details my posts were actually designed to extract through passive aggressive means, and since these individuals appear to have no desire to ascertain any such information from myself, while interestingly replying with a theme of looking from the perspective of others, allow me to clarify some things.

My original post here was most specifically submitting an objection not to Fireangel's assertion of there being a god, but the utterly rediculous "logic" he was using to come to and qualify his conclusion.

I could describe the defensive behavior of other posters as reacting as any motherly figure protecting a defenseless retarded child being picked on, but I could see some taking offense and again misinterpret the fact that it is worded in such a way as to point out, in this case, a mere coincidence.

And so, as amusing as it may be to me, since I truly do not wish to offend, out of respect, I simply won't do it.

Moving on.

Sorceress, clarification in terms and intended usage is needed.

And I was indeed attempting to, but obviously failed. I meant to give distinction to the term reality. But admit I didn't do the best job because I mainly addressed only one distinction.

But you weren't much help due to your exact opposite approach of convoluting contexts of reality and even other concepts entirely in all manner of ways that didn't fully make sense.

Reality is simply existance as a whole regardless of the circumstance of its existance, the influence of its direction, and independant and or inclusive of our existance in it and affect upon it.

Our personally perceived realities are debatable as to whether they are exclusive or independent, just as anything else is, due to the understanding of the nature of this reality being made of seemingly the same forces and energies, simply formed shaped and experienced in variation.

Having said that, I'll submit that our individual perceived realities can be quantitatively distinguished in the context of this conversation.

To further clarify I must also separate two concepts you seem to again integrate in ways that end in innapropriate uses of the terms and therefore headaches for us all who try to argue at 2 in the morning.

Our perceived realities and our chosen beliefs are not one and the same.

You are basically confusing, what is, with, what you want things to be.

Coming full circle this is ultimately the issue I took objection to to begin with.

Its not just flawed logic. Its not just a harmless choice of some belief, its a line between the agreeable fact of many of the "beliefs" you miguidedly limited believers believe, in terms of believing in the concept of a source of creation (way to go you rebel intellects in a mad world) and our ability to willfully affect this creation (aka reality), a line between these sensible notions and those of declaring definitive knowledge of just what god or reality is, as fact, in the face of our limited information, experience, and abilities to even understand them.

See, if you would have bothered to ask, I might have been able to point out that I don't have a problem with god, nor anyone's belief in a creator, I have a problem with asshats who aren't able to admit what they don't know, including and especially about that creator, and are content to delude themselves and others that they hold more understanding and factual information than they do.

Because there is a distinct difference between the reality that is, the reality that we understand, the realities we wish to create or experience, and the ones that are actually created by our influence and existance.

You are correct to assume that these are connected and affected by us, but this is done both collectively and individually to infinite degrees that we cannot possibly fathom.

So to come to such conclusions even without rediculous "logic", is laughable. Unfortunately, it is also dangerous because people become addicted to and defensive of their "beliefs" and cannot be trusted to be able to understand and function in the reality we share.

Instead, we get this...

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what reality? My reality is of a God, yours obviously isn't.

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whose reality are we talking about mine or yours?

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People out of touch with reality.

So I could have told you what I alluded to, that I don't have a problem with god, I have a problem with religion, with sheeple, claims of facts that are not factual or cannot be proven as such.

And since I was unable to coax the information of whether you were religious or not, and what beliefs of you have, which are really your own and all that fun stuff, we got what we got instead.

I find your answer to be arrogant and condescending to name but two negative words I can think of, you don't even try to see another's perspective, you insult peoples believes and say they have no logic and no understanding I am completely offended and won't even justify the kind of answer you are looking for at this time, because how can I answer someone who completely ignores what I've already said, in your eyes I'm obviously stupid, barbaric in my faith and unscientific in any way that comes close to your obviously superior intelect as a human being, I find all your complete so called scientific answers as cold, unfeeling, objective to the extreme (I happen to like subjectiveness) and completely from an outside perspective not an inside. I am a human being not a machine, maybe that's why I have avoided the internet all these years! People like you put me completely off and I might even quit now and leave you to your confused semi-scientific babble.

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I find your answer to be arrogant and condescending to name but two negative words I can think of

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But what of their fact or fiction? Isn't that what really matters? And what answer would that be?

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you don't even try to see another's perspective

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Do you know the first step in accomplishing that? Asking a relevant question.

I was trying to ask if all of you were religious all througout, just indirectly because it is relevant but slightly off topic too.

I knowingly made reference to some stereotypes in otherwise universal statements, in hopes of correction or confirmation. But I was vague and indeed antagonistical.

You see how you felt and reacted just then, its exactly how I felt about this...

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I think that what needs to be understood here is that God exists, what is the point of a soul if it just disappears into the air after the body dies? Why would an old soul have to find a new baby's body to have a new shell just so that it could go through learning everything all over again? That doesn't make sense. In all questions of existence, God is the best and only logical answer.

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And if instead of you constantly repeating that I should...

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try to see another's perspective

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If you had bothered to stop and take your own advice for once, you might have realized that.

That again being our mutual distaste for arrogant preaching.

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you insult peoples believes and say they have no logic and no understanding

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How can I insult someone's beliefs if I don't know what they are? This is like blaming a curious child for hurting your feelings when she asks you why you are so fat and ugly.

You can't be offended unless its true and or you are insecure about such things. I don't know you, fireangel, and I sure don't keep tabs on all of your beliefs over years of debate, and you sure as shit don't know me.

If you were the probable religious person you probably are, then you would be happy to know that I think you would one day discover us more alike than you might initially think. I recognize your openness to more "advanced" concepts not necessarily orthodox but very real, regardless of religion.

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because how can I answer someone who completely ignores what I've already said

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I spent a lot of time trying to give and gain clarification, if you could just get past being so offended we might be able to progress.

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in your eyes I'm obviously stupid

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Not at all, sensitive, quick to judge, good at holding a grudge, hypocritical like anyone but in denial of it, sure. In other words, human.

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barbaric in my faith

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Maybe, I don't know your faith, and it probably is barbaric, but barbaric and romantic are two sides of the same coin.

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unscientific in any way that comes close to your obviously superior intelect as a human being

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You've expressed far more scientific thought, regardless of later pooing on them with some flawed logic, than fireangel did in the quote I responded to.

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I find all your complete so called scientific answers as cold, unfeeling, objective to the extreme

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That's actually kind of flattering, do you realize how hard it is to really think clearly, free of my personal inner and outer influence, from such a whole other perspective ?

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(I happen to like subjectiveness)

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Me too, but I happen to respect and acknowledge objectiveness.

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I am a human being not a machine

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No my friend, you are both. I could pull your words verbatem from this very site a thousand times from any number of sources. But I exaggerate, for I was sincere when I mentioned you were ahead of that particular pack, but it would seem you are held back your own inner god complex.

I agree I have been somewhat negative, but believe me when I say I was being quite tame, trust me, I'm not assuming you are reading or caring, but just know that I agree with your philosophy of being positive. But it is a practice I've only more recently put concious effort towards.

But even someone so assured in their ways and philosophies and answers as you, can still react in just the way you judge me for.

You have shown arrogance, anger, condescention and have most certainly not bothered to see from another's perspective.

But I don't judge you for it, I merely point it out and you react, generally accusing me of all sorts of things.

You'll either decide to leave or come to grips with the fact that not everyone has great personal skills. I managed to put up with you right?

Lighten up if your not going to bother to actually get to debating.

Whatever! I'm done

man is this dissapointing.
I say one thing and it starts all of this. Or just brings it to light.
I dont believe in and kind of god because i dont like the idea of trusting everything to some high being.

My older brother does not believe in god, and he went through alot of things and at one point he became a cutter. Some people say its because hes week, or he wanted attention, or he had no religion to believe in. I though it was because he wanted to do something. His favorite colors are red and black he like death and blood. He knew how my parents and his dad would react so he tested them. His guess was correct. They tried to send him into church, therapy, and many other things. But you know what they never actually honestly asked why did you do that? They did ask but they would not listen.

Thats what your guys's problem is you dont listen to each other except for a reason to bicker.

Dont start quoting me and telling me what i said was unfactual or anything else. Just sit read and look at things.

I have family memers who are and used to be drug users. I have family members who have always believed in god. An then theres me. I dont care about, hmm im in trouble lets ask god. No i don something for myself.

No i am not saying that people who believe in god do nothing for themselves. I just dont see how it could help me.

I have seen members of my moms church who were out quading and broker their collar bones. They go to the hospital and the next day when the doctor goes to operate there is no broken section of collar bone. Hes perfectly fine. Then theres a guy who works on building those big buildings when they are still metal skeletons. He fell from the top of one and landed in the junk section of the workplace. (The place were all of the scrap metal goes.) And he landed in the only bare spot in the entrie area. When he tried to figure out how it got bare one of the workers said, "I just felt like i really had to move it before my shift was done."

I have seen and heard good and bad. What controls everything is there some logical explanation?

People have and depend on beliefs. Why take that away from them. Can you just live your way and let them live theres? Or is that even possible in human nature.

Can anyone give me an honest response without copying and quoting from anothers views????

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People have and depend on beliefs. Why take that away from them.

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You can't take someone's belief away, you can question it, are you asking why one would question? WTF is with people against asking questions on debate forums, seriously, that's retarded.

You cannot blame me for their beliefs being fragile. Haven't you heard of the 3 little pigs, if they want to construct a shabby false reality to shelter them from that which can harm them, then they deserve what they get.

And if someone is dependant upon a made up belief, then they will conflict with the reality that exists regardless of their preference.

And if they become part of a large enough group, the "reality" they wish to believe in will leave no room for any other ideas.

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Can you just live your way and let them live theres?

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To an extent, but don't be naive, its generally those who follow some cult of beliefs that go about legislating it and forcing it on others.

Which is why it this topic is important.

Fragile beliefs, insecure, paranoid, whatever! Could you possibly divert your oh so logical and cold mind to furthuring the study of science rather that pick at what people believe. This discussion will never end between people. No matter how many of the logical people try to prove that their is no such thing as god.

Is it that you are insecure? Afraid that all of your science and technology and cold hard reliable facts might not be enough for you? That some unexplainable thing will claim you and you will have no way know what happened to you? Is it fear of the unkown that makes you nit-pick other people? Quesion there beliefs to make yours seem stronger? No you dont believe in a god you believe in machinery and things that you can see with the eye. People who believe in god are sometimes very dependant on god, you on the other hand are dependant on things you can see. What would happen to you if thins that you cant prove happened to you? Are your beliefs unstable?

I can't believe that you would compare our defending God to a mother defending her retarded child. I'm sorry but on all levels that is just disrespectful. I don't care if you meant as disrespectful to me or any other person who believes in or defends God, but that is just messed up. You need to learn to word things better if that was not meant as an insult. Find better analogies find better examples. I started this post as a place to get advice and that ended long ago. It has now turned into an argument. I do not want an argument because in a bullheaded battle such as this, on a topic such as religion and God, it will never end, it will only bread hatred. I don't want anger, I don't want hatred! This post has concluded and as the creator of this post I end it here. thank you

fireangel

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This discussion will never end between people. No matter how many of the logical people try to prove that their is no such thing as god.

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Exactly who here is trying to prove this? Not me. If I must repeat myself, I have a problem with religion, and not even all of that. I attempted clarification, you have elected to whine.

How come you are only satisfied if people don't question you or others? What's wrong with some people desiring to further knowledge rather than lying to themselves and claiming they have knowledge they do not. And if you hate questions so much get the fuck off debate forums, go to a bible thumper site for god's sake, quit whining.

Have you no clue that I'm trying to separate god and religion in context of what beliefs we are even referring to? You don't need religion to believe in a source of creation nor to attempt a relationship with yourself, the universe, or any god figure.

No religious individual, or non, holds a definitive definition of god.

I don't claim to have all the answers, I'm questioning the arogant fucks who do claim to. That's why I question them, because they say they know something others don't. And instead of answering, explaining, they whine and acknowledge that the debate can't end, because they don't know shit and can't end it, but will argue on anyway.

Another reason I question is because I have to explain to my children some day why people denounce,dismiss, even condemn and threaten others with differring religions and claims of beliefs, but want theirs taken seriously and treated differently.

But to further repeat, I question also because our beliefs shape our actions. Therefore, what we "believe" and why we believe it are very important.

Important for many reasons that no one here cares about because they are too busy whining about people always questioning them about claims they always make.

If you don't want your beliefs questioned, either isolate yourself forever or keep them to yourself. But if you feel the need to express something, don't be surprised if someone else does too.

Let's get past the question of why we are asking questions on a debate forum shall we?

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I can't believe that you would compare our defending God to a mother defending her retarded child.

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Good for you, because I wasn't. Maybe I should have made the anology to show the obvious point that I was refering to how they defended you... not your defense of god (which wasn't what was happening either, you weren't defending god, you were making claims of god's obviousness through use of assinine logic)... it may or may not sink in, I'm not holding my breath.

This is why we all do and have to question eachothers beliefs, to understand what the hell eachother is talking about. You obviously either don't get what I'm saying or are believing my meaning to be something its not.

People with certain types of beliefs, especially those they don't wan't questioned, especially when they are of a religious nature, tend to make up their own meaning of everything and get pissy when someone tells them they might be wrong. And in the case of my own words I have all of the authority in the world to tell you that your assumptions and beliefs in what I'm saying are indeed wrong. Which is why I most directly have been questioning your logic over your actual beliefs, though you wouldn't know it obviously.

And this is why I feel your logic and beliefs are of importance and in need of review. Because your "chosen beliefs" affect how you function when confronted by others.

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it will never end

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It will never begin, you think you have answers not worthy of debate. You are too stuck on what you think I'm saying rather than what I am, and you judge and condemn rather than learn.

That's why your logic is dangerous.

I have no hate for you, if my words are breeding hate in you, perhaps you need more control of yourself. Perhaps that's why I spoke up.

"I dont believe in and kind of god because i dont like the idea of trusting everything to some high being."

With this comment it is very clear that you are not trully atheist. An atheist does not choose to noto believe in God, he just doesnt. What you have done is takin it upon yourself to put a mindset up that God is bad becasue if God is real then you would feel bad. This makes you insecure. Because you are insecure you are not being fully honest with yourself, and all atheists must be fully honest, because the real definition of an atheist is someone who does not believe in a god. Not that they dont believe in God becuase they are scared of him.

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An atheist does not choose to noto believe in God

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There is some things very important for those who do believe, or "choose to believe" in god here.

Belief cannot be chosen. Belief is something that comes with being convinced by things that hold the most sway, evidence, earned trust, and or practical sense at the time over any other competing answer. Regardless of whether it is ultimately right or wrong.

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Because you are insecure you are not being fully honest with yourself, and all atheists must be fully honest, because the real definition of an atheist is someone who does not believe in a god.

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Just as all believers are supposed to be honest with themselves, though they tend not to be. Why? Aren't they being honest when they say they believe in god because of love they feel in doing so, indeed, they mostly are in that one point. What they tend to forget, at least when it is convenient, is that those who do believe in their unnecessarily attached religious dogma that they do indeed "choose to believe", or more accurately choose to feign belief, out of fear of damnation both eternal and while on earth from their fellow loving religious party members.

Hey wraith,

Since this thread is permissable to go anywhere anymore, are you an atheist, and if so or not, to you does that mean a disbelief in your general religious definitions of god(s) or does that include an denial of any possibility of a unified creating force, perhaps a sentient being perhaps not, whatever, but we'll just say something that could be indeed construed as a "God"? Just curious. And pleased that I probably won't face whining if I recieve an answer, which will probably address my actual intended point as well, novel concepts indeed.

Ironwood you are just boring me to death now, you don't know what the hell you are talking about!

To be honest you really upset me personally by what you said before, I'm not embarrassed to say I actually cried because I feel that I should not have to defend my personal beliefs or anyone else's for that matter, not that you give a shit about other peoples' feelings. I came on to the internet because I felt I needed to connect with this whole other world that I had alienated myself from, actually I was feeling a little vulnerable and needed to chat, I've tried the chat rooms and they're OK, but I do like the debates on here. But I just find it so exhausting to have to justify every personal spiritual thought that I have to someone who obviously just couldn't care a less what I think and feel. As far as you are concerned I'm just words on a screen and you can attack me and my beliefs any way you see fit. I'm physically shaking typing this right now that is how this whole debate has affected me. I do not consider myself a whiner but anyway who cares if I am, I am not just words on a screen I am a person with feelings, my feelings. Do you talk to people face to face like this? Do you attack your friends, family and neighbours beliefs and feelings with as much vigour? If you do then I am surprised anybody wants to be around you at all. I don't know you, I've never met you but I tell you this, if you were a member of my family I would have disowned you by now.

And Decius if you're reading this, shame on you for letting people like ironwood attack other people like he does on your site!

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Ironwood you are just boring me to death now, you don't know what the hell you are talking about!

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To make such a statement would mean that obviously you do know what I'm talking about, and so if I do not, and I am mistaken in the lines of logic I am pursuing, perhaps you could help me better understand. That's why I talk on these sites, to expand my understanding, not just to re-affirm already established beliefs. You should try it.

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To be honest you really upset me personally by what you said before

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I'm afraid that the clarification again needs to be made that YOU took personal offence to something I have said. I understand that things I say can indeed be taken offence to, you do not share the same understanding about your own words.

And how about you let me know just what upset you and why so I can better understand your posistion that you constantly accuse me of being at fault for not knowing, all I can do is ask. You want someone to understand you, explain yourself, period.

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I feel that I should not have to defend my personal beliefs or anyone else's for that matter

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But you do it anyway.

Do you know what a debate is, you just said here that you have no desire to debate, you know this right?

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not that you give a shit about other peoples' feelings

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Tsk tsk, there is a difference between caring about feelings and catering to them.

How can I even do anything about anyone's feelings when no information is given about what was actually taken offence to, why it was offensive? When no attempt is made to understand what it is I'm saying even when I say that misunderstanding is taking place and I desire clarification all around?

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I came on to the internet because I felt I needed to connect with this whole other world that I had alienated myself from

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That's kind of amusing given the subject matter. But I'll warn you now, if you can't handle hard reasoning mixed with passionate reactive responses, then the internet is not for you.

Firstly, if you stopped judging and whining you might realize I'm not who you have come to believe, the danger of such logic again, and that you will later find that people with far less caring and far less sensible means will be attacking you, like good ol' Poser, what a freak.

I simply attacked someone's logic, that has yet to be addressed in any response.

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But I just find it so exhausting to have to justify every personal spiritual thought that I have to someone who obviously just couldn't care a less what I think and feel.

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You don't know the first thing about what I care about, your too stuck on you assumptions, "chosen beliefs", about me.

I've asked for personal posistion to give a shit about, you bitch and say no, then proceed to do exactly what you bitch at me for. Being offensive and not caring about feelings or beliefs of others. This is why you are receiving less respect from me. You don't even want to know, you are ok with assumptions.

I DO want to know what you believe and why you believe it, and yes, I may disagree with something, that is why we are here, but I will not make assumptions of you.

If you fear having to explain your posistion I can't help that, then you are just a hinderance to anyone learning anything.

When you stop and look at the fact that it is you holding judgement of me and any beliefs I may have and not the other way around, then we will be getting somewhere, but that will take some maturity and humility on your part.

My posistion may indeed challenge fundamental beliefs and the logic you use to come to them, but it is in no way a personal attack on you. If you hold such beliefs that may be seen as being attacked, then feel free to explain why it is incorrect to hold the posistion I do. Don't just tell me I'm mean and don't care.

I can't censor myself because you MIGHT hold an opinion or belief that I may be speaking against on some level or another, that defeats the purpose of debate all together. How would I learn if I can't ask questions?

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As far as you are concerned I'm just words on a screen and you can attack me and my beliefs any way you see fit.

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Your assumptions are making asses of both of us.

First of all, you ARE just words on a screen to me, this is what I know of you, you refuse to add depth or give backround to yourself and these beliefs I hear so much defense of, but no substance to.

Again, I cannot attack YOUR beliefs unless I know what they are, I do not.

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Do you talk to people face to face like this?

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Do people say stupid things? Including myself, you betcha.

Is it the norm, no, does it last longer when people talk back just the same way but never aknowledge their part in the TWO sided argument, you betcha.

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Do you attack your friends, family and neighbours beliefs and feelings with as much vigour?

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My desire for truth knows no bounds, if someone says something I don't understand and or disagree with, I might very well make a point of disagreement or ask a question to start a debate and learning and or teaching process. This is how we learn, does it ever get heated, you betcha. Is it all my fault? Nope. But I will most definitely take credit for fueling the passion for learning in those to whom I speak, and thank them kindly for reigniting my own passions to learn and better myself. You should try that too.

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If you do then I am surprised anybody wants to be around you at all.

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Only those who like to learn. Ya, not too many people who claim to know it all like to talk to me too much. But I love to talk to them.

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I've never met you but I tell you this, if you were a member of my family I would have disowned you by now.

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Your God must be so proud. WWJD. I feel sorry for your children if they are not permitted to use their minds and under such barbaric threats, its a sad waste and not a motherly posistion to take.

See all these attempts at personal attacks you make, I don't take offense to them because I know you don't know me, that you are making superficial judgements, against your own probable belief system no less (though I will not assume due to that being silly) , based not on anything to do with me, but your beliefs and your reactions to my words, understood fully or correctly or not.

Why is it that religious people, taught not to judge, are the quickest to do so. And usually the most sincerely hateful and spiteful about it? Oh I'm sorry, I'm doing that asking questions on a debate forum thing again, my bad.

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And Decius if you're reading this, shame on you for letting people like ironwood attack other people like he does on your site!

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Ya, for shame. How could you allow them to attack me like I attacked them.

Sorceress, I hold no ill will towards nor opinions of you, though you are making the latter very difficult, and have no desire to see you leave, but you have to know that you are more likely to get kicked off of a debate forum for refusing to debate than I am for asking question and stating opinions. Even if I do get offensive.

how can I debate with someone who has no desire to listen to anyone else's point of view without attacking them?