futility of romantic 'love' - Page 5

quote:

---

it seems ironic that guys seem to be stuck in one of two mindsets, either we appear to be complete assholes and never give as much as we take, or we try far too hard and attempt to give so much that women just find that we get irritatingly under their feet. I would count myself as in the latter of the two (as the lesser of two evils) but still wish there was some way of finding a middle ground.

---

Yeah, I agree. I don't know how my next relationship will turn out but hopefully I can get past these mindsets. I think I am on the right path. ^^

Now its just a matter of learning to be content with being alone. Then maybe finding someone amazing. Who knows.

my dear "texts on a screen"

it is good to put my thots thru this fire of discussion. all my analysis i do on my own, but when u 'texts-on-a-screen' argue it out, it builds my convictions in my own argument or otherwise, shatters it. either way, the outcome is a stronger thot.

i love the man like crzy. the tears will never stop i guess. but if i am restricting his life which is the only one he has known for 49 years, its not worth it for him. and if he is making me sad with using other sources of pleasure thru fantasy then it is not worth it for me.

so on grounds of mutual 'not-worth-it-ness' and the axiom of 'being true to myself' which applies to him as well, i think the path we take of separation is the only one to take. we manage what we can i.e. the relationship, and what is uncontrollable - i.e. the feelings, we will live with.

all u young people are using yr experience to learn and change for the next experience. i think i will just wallow in this tremendously fulfilling and yet debilitating experience for ever after. and keep busy with day to day activities, which dont require soul contribution.

there is usually a mismatch of how much each of the partners gives in a relationship as both of u mention. in our case we had reached a level where both of us gave equally. the positive was all there and perfectly balanced. it was hard to tell who was more impacted by the other. and who was more surrendered than the other and who had let the other person into their soul deeper.

so the positive was great and perfect. but the negative did not go away. it just did not go away - maybe the habit - maybe his confidence that he loved me so much that HE knew it didnt matter - tho' it did to me - i dont know what went wrong. but the negative remained.

so here we are at this awful place. having moved away from a compromised solution.

will never know if this is right or wrong and will never understand everythign there is. but i know its easier to cry out of love for him and out of missing him, than to cry out of anger despair of having been let down by him, and having been compromised by him.

for all that big talk, i had near breakdown conditions today.

after dealing with that one question and there seem to be no . i was weak and made the mistake of breaking the silence. and we went into a spiral of hurt-anger-frustration-breakdownof talk - feeling of abandonement - total despair.

the situation is unlikely to improve. and with the communication pattern we have fallen into, life may not improve either.

no one thing leads to the point of giving up. its not this one man. and its not this oen experience with him either. its probably 40 years of screwed up living with this one experience as the last straw.

who knows what happens next. incidentally i stumbled upon this site when i was looking for a self destructive chat forum a day after i broke up. and the philosophising of the problem helped a bit.

but the all encompassing dread of having to live another day is too much. and to plan for the rest of my life in this meangingless state seems like too painful.it might be better (for me at least) to inflict the pain once and get out of this mess forever. IF i can find the guts. it has become clear to me that commiting suicide needs more guts than living does. that huge amount of resolve needed at that one moment is elusive. btu all this is possibly a digression ...sorry.

Spicesoup - This situation makes me so sad to hear. The fact that you feel as if your life is meaningless scares me. We all needs a purpose in life to be happy. Something. Anything. Without purpose or the hope of purpose we die.

You see your life without purpose and it seems to be not worth it? I don'tsee how my life has any purpose anymore either. I have to hope of romantic love but somehow I feel like I houldn't rely on that for purpose. When you put your meaning into a relationship and that relationship fails... you will be damaged so badly you will not want to live.

Recently I have had a dosage of what this feels like when my girlfriend left me. I know I may be only 19 but I really gave that girl my heart and life. She had everything and she broke it. ALL my happiness was through her and my lifes meaning was to make her happy. Nothing else. Now she is gone. Where is my purpose? What am I to do?

You are in a similar situation. They key I think lies in the realization that we MUST not rely on romantic love to create our life meaning. It can't be. Its too dangerous.

I had a breakdown today too. On the way home from school I almost lost it. I have to see my ex bestfriend in class everyday. He is the one who is now with my ex girlfriend. Its by far the cruelest thing life has done to me so far. Everyday I see him and my heart gets ripped out all over again. I don't know how to survive but I know I must.

You can't give up on purpose. You can find it. Its out there somewhere. Find it. Don't give up. Please.

Love - Zach - from across the world.

quote:

---

the situation is unlikely to improve. and with the communication pattern we have fallen into, life may not improve either.

---

First off. The situation WILL improve once you do certain things.

If you are already broken up - CUT CONTACT!!! I mean it. You will not get better until you cut contact. The human heart is amazing, it can survive nearly anything. All it needs is hope. Hope of what?
Of meaning.
What meaning?
What is the meaning of life?

The meaning of life is to find "Genuine Happiness".

The hope of Happiness. You can be happy again. Put your hope in happiness and embrace it. That IS the meaning to life. Everysingle human on this planet is seekig happiness yet few realize how to find it. Some look to alcohol. Some look to simple pleasures. Some rely on others to be happy.

The key is happiness within yourself!

Believe in Yourself. Know who you are. Strive to love yourself for all of your unique, exceptional and distinctive qualities. Embrace your right to be happy. Get in touch with all the small, silly and substantial things that make you smile. They are uniquely yours. You have your own blissful happiness support system deep inside of you.

Try new stuff. Discover more people, places, ideas and activities that delight and amuse you. There is no end to the supply of wonderful, beautiful, pleasurable, enlightening, tranquil and exhilarating experiences just waiting in the wings to dance with you. Play with the possibilities and be open to finding lots more happiness that is personally yours.

Actively seek out happiness and take small actions to sustain you. If you were hungry, you would seek out food. Until and unless you get up, decide what you want to fulfill your happiness and take action to bring it into your life, your happy hunger won't be satiated.

quote:

---

no one thing leads to the point of giving up. its not this one man. and its not this oen experience with him either. its probably 40 years of screwed up living with this one experience as the last straw.

---

You have realized that the way you have been living is not the "right" way. Start to live right now. Get up and smile. It is never too late to be happy. Never give up and never Surrender! Your going to die someday anyways - you never know what may happen in the future.

Listen to me.

What ever has happened in the past, "Your future is Spotless!"

Love - Zach

zach !!! who wud have thot that u r 19 and i am 40+ !!!

u have said many many sensible things. tx

x x x x x

yesterday in my meltdown, i talked to him. and for the first time, he admitted that he had erred. up until now, he had always denied that my jealousy was justified -in his point of view i wasalways wrong - and he kept repeating that i shud not be hurt becos his actions were of no consequence to what we had.
he mentioned an extremely useful thing - that he has erred, but the unless in my own head i am able to forgive him, there is no cure for me.

both these things came together - that he believes that i am not a lunatic fighting for unreasonable things. this made me feel infinitely better - becos in his context of 'live and let live' he had adamantly refused to see that any woman in love would be extremely jealous of her man giving himself even in fantasy - to another. in my obsession to prove myself right i have dragged in his whole earlier life which had sanctioned his playboys and had sanctioned single women friends wanting to come and spend the night at his bachelor pad in another city alone with him. all that potential for intimacy had me going nuts but his first wife was okay with this. and so i had lashed out his whoel life.

him admitting his errors has taken the pressure of me having to prove that i was not a lunatic. for 2 years we have fougth long and hard on this issue.

so what followed is that i have forgiven - knowing that he never did DO anything wrong. and that the monster it became in my head was as much because of his act that had potential, as it was, because of his refusal to see my hurt and do anything to end hurting me.

my anger that followed thru the two years damaged him.

so now with yesterdays episode i think i have found closure on this issue. there is forgiveness on my part. i am released from this grip of obsessing about the bad things that happened between us. and its good to not feel the frenzy anymore. there is no more anger or pain.

of course i am not a fool to deny that the past two years have been made miserable by the way we both handled it. and there is no changing that. we have ruined what we had. both were at fault. him for thinking that i had no right to be hurt . and me for not managing myself and letting myself turn into an angry witch.

so today i am fine. have forgiven. NOT forgotten - for that wud be foolish. we do have very different paradigms. we do come from different planets and possibly even different solar systems. so if we stay together two things will happen - we will see many many more clashes. and second we will not have any common process of solving these since we are from different worlds. and we will make each other very very unhappy. instead of the objective we both started out with - which was happiness.

but the best thing is that i have been released from my anguish and despair by this one change - his admission of error and him showing me that only my forgivenss in my head will release me.

it has. and i feel like a normal person again.

Spicesoup- It warms my heart to hear you have found the ability to forgive and move on. You can now continue on your search for happiness within your life. I am so happy myself that you are now able to release all this!!!

I can totally relate to you with the discussion of Forgiveness.

Long story short - I was with my girlfriend for over two years and she was great but then she pulled "I don't love you like that anymore" and I was devastated. Just over a month later I got my closure finally and I was actually able to see the light at the end of the tunnel and move on. Not a week later I find out about her and my bestfriend. They like each other and are now involved. It shocked me so bad. I had been friends with this guy since Kindergarden. I was FAR from over her and they both knew that. They betrayed me - mainly my bestfriend. He doesn't care that he is hurting me like this.

The point is that even through out the betrayal and pain, and he knows he is doing wrong to me (because I have talked to him about it) and doesn't care, I have found the strength to forgive them but they are still being kicked out of my life. They are not good friends. I am released from the pain and anger. Forgiveness is everything.

Of course I still am hurt be the whole situation and I am sad that it turned out this way but I am no longer controlled by the anger and I am now able to resume my life.

there is still a wistfulness about this story.

he HAS made changes. but all after so much strife !!

his environment of open sanction, his stubbornness, and maybe his conviction in his love for me, made him refuse to see my point for so long.

and i had to deal with not just the pain of the issue itself but alos of his refusal to change for this long. the anger was double as a result !

and he has hated that part too.

he DID see my point of view in the end. he DID make changes on each of the three things but after such a huge war...

i wish that the war had not happened. and wonder at the same time, that had the war not happened, wud he have even stepped out of his envirnmental conditoning to SEE my pain ?

i wish that we cud be here with the changes without the blood that was spillt along the way and the death of the relationship that it has caused. and at the same time i wonder about the original question i had raised - that why shud i have been hurt at what his instinct was making him do. why did he have to change himself and restrict himself to prove his love for me ? the fact that society has made all males "control" their desires to different extents - where is the justice to them in this world that we live in ? how do the two sides ever find a common ground ?

anyway. i will live my truth. and thats the only thing i have under my control in any case. let the rest of life happen with futility

x x x

and now a new set of feelings : shame at myself, disgust at myself for debasing myself so much. for allowing so much loss of dignity thru fighting for this long. wish i cud erase my soul. i give myself the creeps thinkign about how low i had dropped.

quote:

---

why did he have to change himself and restrict himself to prove his love for me ?

---

The ability to choose ones way in life. The ability to choose how one will think. To choose. Thats what makes us Humans and special compared to every other creature known. We still have basic instincts but we are also so much more than that. The capacity to love to the depths of eternity. This could kind of go towards religion in this topic. Just my opinion.

quote:

---

and now a new set of feelings : shame at myself, disgust at myself for debasing myself so much. for allowing so much loss of dignity thru fighting for this long. wish i cud erase my soul. i give myself the creeps thinkign about how low i had dropped.

---

You fought long and hard for a cause you believed in with all your heart. You did nothing wrong at all. We would never grow as people if there was never hardship. The battle makes us strong and wise. This is just how life works I guess.

yes u r right that i fought long and hard for what i believed in.

and he too has been a gentleman and not been unkind ever in my struggle.

but the fact remains that he didnt want much of this intensity and devotion. maybe that was a reason to avoid taking more than he cud give. maybe he just didnt want me as much. whatver his reasons he didnt treat me badly on grounds of our differing levels of neediness for the other.

but yet i was intense. and gave all. and fought for too long to keep a relationship alive which had so many problems. i am feeling shame for that part. the line where i shud have withdrawn was crossed long time ago. while i was in the story i didnt see it as such. but now i do. clingy. maybe forcing myself on him. i feel terrible that there were many things i did which were definitely debasing. like i wudnt let him go even if he wanted to. at that time, i felt close enuff to him, and felt so much oneness that i didnt even see myself as going down on my knees. and yet now i feel that maybe i made a fool of myself.

and he had to watch me lose my dignity and grovel and fight for attention, for time, for restrictions. i wish i cud save myself from seeign myself ever again. and i hope i never have to face him again ever. the disgust is all for myself. and its worse because he has done nothing to bring this feeling on !! its just self-realisation

zach, your point about his changing may be true. but then why did his instinct bend to accomodate mine, instead of the other way around ? in the pure theoretical argument, maybe i cud have curbed my instinct of possessiveness to accomodate his 'male' instinct of spreadign his seed, just to prove my love.

i am so so tired.

quote:

---

but yet i was intense. and gave all. and fought for too long to keep a relationship alive which had so many problems. i am feeling shame for that part. the line where i shud have withdrawn was crossed long time ago. while i was in the story i didnt see it as such. but now i do. clingy. maybe forcing myself on him. i feel terrible that there were many things i did which were definitely debasing. like i wudnt let him go even if he wanted to. at that time, i felt close enuff to him, and felt so much oneness that i didnt even see myself as going down on my knees. and yet now i feel that maybe i made a fool of myself.

---

I know you feel bad that you may have dragged it out longer than it needed to be, but realize it needed to be dragged out for you to realize what you did and learn from it in the way you have. It has already happened and things have settled and it couldn't have gone any other way because this is how it happened. Don't beat yourself up for what has happened. Learn and look foward to today and the future. No sense in beating youself up over it. As long as you have learned something from it all - thats all that matters. ^^

quote:

---

zach, your point about his changing may be true. but then why did his instinct bend to accomodate mine, instead of the other way around ? in the pure theoretical argument, maybe i cud have curbed my instinct of possessiveness to accomodate his 'male' instinct of spreadign his seed, just to prove my love.

---

I believe this is a matter of how you have been brought up and what morals you possess. He simply has different moral standards than you and that is something that shouldn't be bent either way. How we aquire our moral standards is quite debateable but none the less your standards are standards and shouldn't be bent.

We all have instincts that basically drive us right? But we must factor morals with them at the same time. So this can become a very complex discussion.

First we must come to a conclusion on whether his fantasies are instinct driven or simple a lack of morals as compared to you and I. Or is it both?

This is important because morals standards MUST be upheld no matter what as to not compromise self integrity. And instincts can be supressed and sometimes must be supressed due to moral expectations. Like my instincts tell me to go fuck as much as possible but I don't listen to them because I won't be happy because that goes against my morals. I am trying to find a balance to gain happiness.

There is always instinct driving us so we dont give up I think. But our morals judge how far or how limited we will let our instinct go. Kinda see what Im saying?

He simply doesn't have as much morals as you do so he lets his instincts take control to a level where you feel is unacceptable. You expect a tighter reign on your partners basic instincts. Which requires more morals and more control. And there are men out there with this kind of control and moral perspective. Just a matter of finding one.

Hope I didn't confuse anyone.. This is how I view it.

Edit: Also something else I should mention.

The instinct is something that can be bent and controlled. Your morals can be bent too but I don't think morals are something that should be bent at all if you are to remain who you are.

i think instinct is self driven and morals are superimposed byt others.

a child sees a candy in a store and reaches out for it instinctively. but the mother stops the child - its not yours and so u cant have it until u pay for it - its stealing if u dont pay - its not good to be greedy - impose control now becos we will eat dinner in a short while - its wrong for yr health and so on. theres rules mixed with morals coming at u , for the good fo a larger group called society.

change this example slightly the child sees an ice cream with another child - if he is not full already - surely he will want it. and then if the child is young enuff, with instinct as his only guideline he WILL reach out or may even get into a fight with the other to acquire it. as they grow older, it will be upbringing - which will be the "morals" or rules imposed by others.

and the justification for this set of rules is sensitivity to other human beings.

morals a re controls then. to ensure long term peace in a system. they may be counter-instinctive. and are usually controlling instinct or taming raw desires for more order within the system. by 'order' i mean elimination of discord and higher average levels of satisfaction for all the members of that system over a long span of experiences.

and i am sure he is not compromising anything within himself when he buys playboys or fantasizes about other women. he is just being true to his instinct. and no one ever has imposed any moral upon him until now, so he does not even see it as a 'necessary' action to eliminate these. all his life in his earlier paradigm, his sensitivity did NOT yield a reading that he has done anything to offend.

it is only with ME, a woman from a different planet that his earlier set of rules dont seem to work !

and as i mentioned earlier this set of rules or morals are necessary for the survival of a system. a system which consits of more than one person, and the interactions within them.

in our case, in the absence of such sensitivity and our inability to arrive at a set of morals that ensured we both were happy, has resulted in this system has falling apart. so we are no longer one unit of 2 people who r going to live happily ever after !

I agree. And understand exactly what your saying.

I think we have come to a great understanding about all this.

What do you plan to do next with your life Spicesoup?

i'm happy in my memories. i've lived and covered every significant milestone i cud have ever wanted to. with this man i found my detsination too. there was fulfilment and contentment in that story. i can live that feeling for the rest of my life - am 41 so if i'm lucky i'll be done in the next 15 years - so that gives me enuff time to complete my responsibilities of raising my kids. and in the meanwhile i will also complete living all the dreams i had put off until 'one day'.

i have found closure for my whole life, in this story. everything i have yearned for, if found. it healed my life. yes there were other issues i found too, but those bad things have lived their usefulness by leading me to my decision of moving away. and after the forgiveness, they are no longer worth remembering. the overpowering positives are the only things that shud and will remain with me. so there is no place else i want to be. i am happy and content to go back to he memories of our short life together and use that alone to feed me emotionally. with this kind of life closure what else does one need ?

and u zach, i hope thru your thinking and talking to yrself u will find a way out without allowing this to permanently damage you.

Would you ever consider falling in love again? Do you think your too old for a new relationship? Just curious.

Im very glad to hear that you have found the closure needed. You are indeed an amazing person. Glad to have met you! ^^