GOD and goofy belief systems. - Page 5

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I have several good friends who are openly gay and lesbian and are happily Christian

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Then they are not actually Christians. It would be impossible for them to happily follow a God who does not accept their behaviour. Plenty of nonchristian people also goto church but this means nothing.

Christians do not wish to expand the earthly kingdom, you must be thinking of Mormons. It is the goal of the Christian to see as many people as possible accept Jesus' gift of life.

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so why are we still using a 2000 year-old system of judgement?

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Actually the acceptance of homosexuality is more ancient than the intolerance. So now I ask you "why are we using a 2000 year old system of judgement?"

So what you're saying is that if someone disagrees with something or does not follow every single line from the bible then they aren't Christian? Maybe you meant "not Catholic" or "not Evangelist" because in my experience, those are the only two denomenations of the faith that are so limiting in their definition of the word Christian. The majority of the United Church of Christ doesn't really have a problem with homosexual christians, unless your going to tell me that hundreds of churches all over the world are no longer christian.

Also, why if they didn't believe in god, and were not christian, would they waste their time attending services every week? There is probably other things they could be doing with their time, but they spend their sunday mornings going to worship and their weekdays volunteering in various missions.

Next up, the goal of Christians. Yeah I have a problem with this one too. I'm not going to argue that what you said isn't the goal of Christianity. I merely want to know, if the goal is to get as many people as possible to accept Christ, then why do you insist on alienating everyone who doesn't believe in what you say? Why not instead, invite them in and talk with them. Then you can figure out where their coming from and why they act the way they do. Then maybe you could see that they aren't these society destroying monsters you're trying to make them out to be.

Now for the last part. Yes the acceptance of homosexuality is older than christianity. I would like to point out, however, that in Ancient Greece and Rome it was not broadcast, bantered about, blown up, or in any way embellished (except during the reign of Caligula). It was an accepted part of society and people didn't bother about it. Also, homosexuality in no way contributed to the downfalls of these two societies. Both societies ended as a result of wars and invasions. So now, why do we use a 2000 year old system when the 3000 year old system seems to have been more successfull? If I had to guess, I would say because Christianity was the rulling force in the "civilized" world since before the fall of Rome, and they've spent the better part of that time convincing the world to go with the 2000 years old version. So that is what the world is working with right now. All of this of course doesn't make either system any more right, however, neither Greece nor Rome had their societies destroyed by homosexuality even though it was accepted, and here we are trying to restrict it and our societies going down the tubes.

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So what you're saying is that if someone disagrees with something or does not follow every single line from the bible then they aren't Christian?

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This is no little matter. This is fundimental stuff. It's like saying "yeah I'm a Christian but I don't believe in Jesus".

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Also, why if they didn't believe in god, and were not christian, would they waste their time attending services every week?

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Because they think they are. There is more than one account of pastors becoming Christians in the middle of their own sermons. You can go through all the motions and still be wrong.

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then why do you insist on alienating everyone who doesn't believe in what you say?

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I do not alienate those who do not believe. I may come accross strong and even offensively them but I don't (at least not conciously) alienate them. Usually people will alienate me for my views.

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It was an accepted part of society and people didn't bother about it

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Not so. Socrates spoke against the common homosexual practices of his day

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and here we are trying to restrict it and our societies going down the tubes.

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So you think accepting homosexuality will make the world all better? Homosexuality is a problem that is not the biggest or least of the contributions of social breakdown but it is a cause.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe Jesus said, "Put your faith in me, and all will be forgiven in the end." If that's the case, then why can't one who believes in Christ and lives their life mostly according to his word be a Christian? Ok so they sin a little bit. Won't Christ forgive them if they can't help it?

Yes, you can go through all the motions, say all the words, and there is always something else you can learn or be corrected on. People generally attend services because they believe in the faith, and as I said in the previous paragraph, if you believe in and put your faith in Christ, he'll forgive you regardless of the sin and regardless of how many times you've commited the sin.

Now for the alienation. I've got a little piece of information for you that you may have overlooked. When you type something in a condescending, strong, and slightly offensive manner (such as this paragraph) you're going to alienate people whether you mean too or not. If you find people are alienating you, it's usually because you aren't listening to them and just keep repeating yourself.

And Socretes was put to death for disturbing the peace. He may have spoken out against it, and it was his view. However, the fact still stands that it wasn't hurting anyone, it didn't bring down the society, and they didn't argue over it in any form like the current world does.

I'm not saying that homosexuality will fix the world. But if we stopped spending so much time and resources arguing about it and just let people choose for themselves who they're going to love, then that's one less meaningless problem we'll be wasting time on, and it's that much more effort and resources we can put into larger problems, like poverty, corruption, world hunger, and so on.

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I do not alienate those who do not believe. I may come accross strong and even offensively them but I don't (at least not conciously) alienate them. Usually people will alienate me for my views.

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Right, and being offensive won't alienate someone.

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So you think accepting homosexuality will make the world all better? Homosexuality is a problem that is not the biggest or least of the contributions of social breakdown but it is a cause.

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I recall the proponents for slavery and denying women the right to vote saying the same exact thing.

discrimination against homosexuality is the same as discrimination against blacks, jews, and any other group. It's just another way that various religious or moral extreemists try and impose their beleifs on the rest of society, but just because they hold some position of power doesn't mean they're right. You can choose to think for yourself.

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Won't Christ forgive them if they can't help it?

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But they can help it. Yes they will be forgiven but that is no excuse to sin.

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if you believe in and put your faith in Christ, he'll forgive you regardless of the sin and regardless of how many times you've commited the sin

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If you honestly believe in Him you will not simply resign yourself to a life of sin. People can stop homosexual tendencies. It is like an addiction.

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And Socretes was put to death for disturbing the peace

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As are a lot of martyrs

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then that's one less meaningless problem we'll be wasting time on, and it's that much more effort and resources we can put into larger problems, like poverty, corruption, world hunger, and so on.

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But it is only meaningless because you think it is. You do not see any problems and most people won't because they are long term problems and who cares what happens after we are dead right?

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Right, and being offensive won't alienate someone.

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Not my problem. If people choose to be offended then so be it.

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discrimination against homosexuality is the same as discrimination against blacks, jews, and any other group

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That is the stupid piece of homosexual propaganda there is. Homosexuals are only homosexual because they act it out. If a person is not attracted to the same sex then they are not homosexual. The comparison to blacks is like saying that if a black person does not act out his or her tradition heritage then they cease to be black.

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but just because they hold some position of power doesn't mean they're right.

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And what makes you think that you are more right than me?

In any philosophy you are taught to view things extrinsically, i believe this to be especially true with the bible. The bible itself was written over 2000 years ago, by men, and re written at least three different known times, not to mention the number of translations.

God created all things, love being arguable the most important. I do not believe homosexuals are going to hell, some truly love each other. They are sharing what god has given them. I do not however believe homosexuality is beneficial to society as a whole, but it must be tolerated, the way we tolerate anybody with differences from the norm.

Basically it is probably best not to look at the bible as a source of judgement, just a book of stories we can apply to life to help us live a better life.

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But they can help it. Yes they will be forgiven but that is no excuse to sin.

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they can't help it, it's not a choice, it's genetic. But suppose it is a choice, then who in their right mind would decide that for whatever reason, they want to join the most hated social group in the world? There's no benefit in this choice, no payoff, but yet there's millions of homosexuals. so this doesn't mean that they're addicted to homosexuality, because ther'es no motivation to start. so it must be genetic. These people get enough crap, they don't need any from you. Talk like this is the exact reason why there's a 17% suicide rate among homosexual teens.
And before you comment, remember this:
Everyone with internet access can read your posts, including homosexuals, so keep that in mind when you write.

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quote: And Socretes was put to death for disturbing the peace

As are a lot of martyrs

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just because someone dies for their beleifs doesn't make them right. Timothy mcveigh the unibomber responsible for the oklahoma city bombings was also a martyr but i doubt anone here agrees with his ideas.

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quote: Right, and being offensive won't alienate someone.

Not my problem. If people choose to be offended then so be it.

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If you're the one saying these things it is most certainly your problem. People don't have to accept what you say, you're not the almighty fountain of wisdom, no one is. If anyone wants to be taken seriously, then they have to be tolerable enough so that their audience doesn't start hating them. It doesn't matter how right you are, if you're insulting, nobody will listen.

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And what makes you think that you are more right than me?

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I provide reasons instead of blindly quoting scripture. And i will not be goaded into an insult war. I'm here to have a reasoned discussion nothing more.

Alright ethereal, now you've stepped in it. If there's one thing that pisses me off, you just said it. So they can help it huh? Well then if they can choose not to be homosexual, then they must have chosen to be homosexual in the first place, and if that's the case, then it follows that everyone could make that choice if they wanted. So I want you to try an experiment for me. I want you to try and make that same choice. See if you can choose to be attracted to the same sex for five minutes. See if you can do it. I'd bet that you can't, because it isn't a choice. Telling a homosexual not to be homosexual is the exact same as telling a black person not to be black. You're telling them to be someone they aren't, and comparing a person's personality to a drug is just sick. That's the way they happen to feel and it's sub-human to demean a person like that.

Yes a lot of martyrs died for disturbing the peace. My point with this comment was the word peace. The majority of the Greek society had no problems with homosexuality, and it did not contribute anything to their downfall.

Yes I do think it's meaningless. I'm basing this on history, where homosexuality never caused a society to topple. Besides, if we keep arguing this, then we'll never make it far enough into the long term to see these problems because the more immediate problems we aren't dealing with right now, such as pollution, education, and hatred of our fellow human beings, will annihilate us first.

Now let me try to sum this up. It seems to me that you're saying if the homosexuals just decided to stop being homosexual then everything would be fine on this issue. Alright, now humor me for a second longer. You're saying, 'Everything would be cool if the homosexuals weren't homosexual. We wouldn't have to discriminate against them then.' Hmmm I've heard something like this somewhere before. I think it was back just after the civil war when the KKK was running around. Oh right, it was, 'If those blacks weren't blacks, they could work fair and square.' And then again, during the industrial boom in the U.S. there was another one. 'If those foreigners weren't foreign, we'd be happy to treat them properly.' I know there's one more big one here. You ready for this? Here we go, 'If those Jews weren't Jewish we wouldn't have to kill them.' Ahhh yes, Nazi Germany. And now we have yours, 'If those gays and lesbians weren't gay and lesbian then we'd be happy to leave them alone.' Yep that fits into the pattern pretty well it seems.

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There's no benefit in this choice, no payoff, but yet there's millions of homosexuals

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Smoking has no benefits and yet more people are smokers than homosexuals.

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If you're the one saying these things it is most certainly your problem.

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If people choose to be offended then that is not my problem. Or am I not entitled to my own opinion?

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I provide reasons instead of blindly quoting scripture.

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What reasons?

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I want you to try and make that same choice

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I knew this would come up. But see I have already made that choice. Back in high school I choose to be straight. I had problems with sexual orientation and gender identity. And even know I can imagine what it might be like to be involved with another man, but that is not my preference.

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'Everything would be cool if the homosexuals weren't homosexual. We wouldn't have to discriminate against them then.'

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Again the difference here is that homosexuals have a choice. If you do not believe this then you've been fed too much homosexual propaganda. This is more like saying "if criminals didn't commit crime then they wouldn't have to be punished."

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Smoking has no benefits

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False, smoking is enjoyable for many people.

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If people choose to be offended then that is not my problem.

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It is if you want people to listen to you.

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This is more like saying "if criminals didn't commit crime then they wouldn't have to be punished."

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So you think that people are born criminals? That's just sick.

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False, smoking is enjoyable for many people.

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Very well so in the same way homosexuality only has benefits for those who partake and like smoking it cause problems for those who do not do it.

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It is if you want people to listen to you.

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So all you openminded people are unwilling to take a little offense at the risk of hearing a new idea?

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So you think that people are born criminals? That's just sick.

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People are NOT born homosexual so the comparsion has no validity.

True smoking has no visible benefits to the person's health. However, if you ask a smoker why they smoke you might be surprised at what they say. Yes, some smokers smoke because they can't break the habit. Others will tell you it helps them relax. Still others will say it helps with their thought process. Now for comparisons sake, let's look at 'choosing' to be gay (I still maintain it's not a choice but bear with me here). The pros of such a 'choice' are... wait, there aren't any. There is no one standing around saying, 'It's fun to be gay.' There isn't anyone saying, 'Everyone's doing it,' to young people. There aren't any subliminal messages in the media saying, 'Being gay is cool.' In fact, if you look at the media right now, most of the gay people are the comical relief of the shows they are in, and are made out to be on par with idiots. The point is there really isn't any motivation or pressure to 'choose' to be gay. Now let's look at the cons of said 'choice'. Let's see, you get to be hated and ridiculed by the largest religious sect in existence. You get turned down from jobs because your personal feelings happen to be different from everyone else's. You can't marry your significant other, or even go with them to the hospital if they get hurt. There are loads of other cons too. If people were out to choose the most hated lifestyle they could, why not become a lawyer instead. At least then you get paid to be hated.

Yes you are perfectly entitled to your own opinion, and so am I. So is every other person on this site. However, you should realize that if you post something you know someone's going to find offensive, then guess what? They're going to be offended by it. You can't say you're consciously trying to avoid offending people if you know someone will find what you write offensive. Now here's the clincher. No matter what it is you write, someone somewhere is going to take offense over one thing or another. The only way you can consciously avoid offending people is to not write at all, but I know that's probably not going to happen.

Ok so you had a sexual identity crises in school. So you chose to be straight. Wonderful. That's your prerogative as a human being to choose who you want to look at. Now before I go on, I'd like to introduce a third group that all of us have been ignoring in this little discussion. Yes, it's time to bring the bi-sexuals in on this. Those people who are attracted to both men and women. Now then, in high school, you say you weren't sure whether you were attracted to men or women. You decided for yourself, for whatever reason, that you thought being attracted to men wasn't ok, so you 'chose' to be straight. However, if you can still look at a guy and think, 'Yeah I could see what being in a relationship with him would be like,' then, according to you, you're one of those Christians who's 'just going through the motions.' Now if you want to tell me that you've sworn never to look at another man again, great. Good for you. Go for it. By your own definition then, you would be a Christian. By my definition, I don't care what you choose, you believe in Christ, you're a Christian. So lay off the people who turned out the other way and still believe in God and Jesus just like you. Just because they think differently, doesn't make their faith any less than yours.

Now I know this last part is going to sound repetitive, but I'm going to post it anyway. It isn't a choice. If it were, then we would all have to make it, and since the majority of religions aren't teaching anything about choosing to be gay to the children that attend them, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the founders of these religions didn't view it as a choice either. It's not like Billy the 13 year old, woke up one morning and thought to himself, 'You know, from now on, I'm going to be gay.' No. It doesn't happen like this. It's something that people realize gradually over time, and there really are only three possibilities when they do realize it.

1. They can accept it and go on about their lives happily.
2. They can deny it and try to suppress it and live the rest of their lives as a lie, trying to uphold the precious status quo.
3. They can be so overwhelmed by the hazing, discrimination, and other bull shit people throw at them that they decide to stick their head in a microwave and 'end it all.'

Now, yes if criminals weren't criminal they wouldn't be punished. However, since being gay isn't a choice, there really isn't any comparison between the two statements.

Now just one more thing I'd like to say. When I post, I do my absolute best to avoid slandering the bible, your ideas, or anyone else's. So, I would kindly ask you not to refer to my arguments, or the ideas that they are based on, as propaganda. I know the definition of propaganda is information that is spread for the purpose of promoting some cause. However because of modern events of the twentieth century, propaganda has picked up a whole slew of negative connotations. It has come to represent false information that is being deliberately distributed to conceal the whole truth from the public. As I don't refer to scripture or your arguments as 'Christian propaganda,' kindly do not refer to my arguments as 'homosexual propaganda.'

It took me so long to write that, that you posted again so I'm gonna tack this on at the bottom.

Homosexuality has no benefits for those who partake as you put it. The only thing it gives them is a headache. Also there is no health problem caused by being around a gay person, so that comparison just doesn't make sense.

People are perfectly willing to take a little offense. However, the more you offend them the less likely they are to listen.

For the last one, just read the appropriate paragraph above again. I don't feel like repeating myself a third time.

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The pros of such a 'choice' are... wait, there aren't any. There is no one standing around saying, 'It's fun to be gay.' There isn't anyone saying, 'Everyone's doing it,' to young people. There aren't any subliminal messages in the media saying, 'Being gay is cool.'

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In high school they brought in some members of the gay and lesbian association to tell us that "it's ok to be gay".

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In fact, if you look at the media right now, most of the gay people are the comical relief of the shows they are in, and are made out to be on par with idiots

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Brainwashing technique. If they introduce homosexual characters who are fun to watch then people will subconsciously start to think "homosexuals really aren't so bad".

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Now here's the clincher. No matter what it is you write, someone somewhere is going to take offense over one thing or another.

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Exactly and those people should really learn to lighten up.

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However, if you can still look at a guy and think, 'Yeah I could see what being in a relationship with him would be like,' then, according to you, you're one of those Christians who's 'just going through the motions.'

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This is incorrect. To be able to perceive of events that may or may not be factual is not a sin. I have the ability to picture myself in many different scenarios. If I was actually looking for guys to have a relationship then I wouldn't bother going to church at all because I would know I was wasting my time.

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I don't care what you choose, you believe in Christ, you're a Christian.

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If you believe Jesus then you listen to His words and those words were "follow me". How can you follow someone by going in the opposite direction?

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If it were, then we would all have to make it,

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What makes you think we don't all make it? Just because some people actually notice the question while others follow the course of nature doesn't mean a choice hasn't been made

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It's something that people realize gradually over time,

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Indeed. Like the wife/mother of two children who after spending a lot of time with female colleagues suddenly realized her whole life was a lie and she had to leave her husband and kids to be with a woman.
If you think homosexuals don't recruit people then you are so mislead. How else would they reproduce? If homosexuality was genetic it would have killed itself by now. Either that or they are not homosexual at all but rather bi-sexual.

every school does something along the lines of a lecture, or an assembly to show that homosexuality isn't bad, or evil, or pedophilic, or satannic. But every day in every class, everyone either hears or makes anti-homosexual comments. Now which side do you think makes more of an impact on a questioning teen? If a kid goes to church all his life and learns all about hell, and about how all gay people are pedophiles and in the end they will all go to hell, and hears evey day about how gay people suck, and then goes to a single assembly saying that homosexuality is OK. Which side do you think will win? For any questioning person, that alone is enough to make them start lying to themselves just so they can beleive that they're straight.

As for the media, any character used for comic releif is seen as stupid, or ignorant. You'll never hear someone say
"i want to be like that gay guy from will and grace because he's funny."
And it's not just people like you saying this. It's everyone.
As for homosexuality being a choice, it's not. These people don't become gay when they tell you, they were gay all along. it's them same for straight people too. nobody i know was interested in dating the opposite sex as soon as he/she could tell which one was which. Your sexual preference is something you find out abut after a while. And if you can honestly say "And even know I can imagine what it might be like to be involved with another man" then either you have diffuculty puttign thoughts into words, or you're just "going throught the motions" of christianity (by your logic).

As for the religious part of it, i'm atheist, so i really don't see what the big deal about christianity is. So i really don't have a problem with homosexuals not being christian, personally, i can't see why they should. I mean going to church every week to hear again why you're going to hell. Doesn't sound like a very good idea to me. And to tell someone that they're going to hell for something that they can't help but be is just sub human.

As for your last paragraph, the only reason that things like this happen is because of people like you. These people hear that being gay is bad all the time, and eventually they start beleiving they're straight because they think that if they admit to being gay, they;ll be a child molestor, or a burden on society. So they suppress it untill even tey themselves beleive they're straight. But it doesn't stay suppressed forever, oh no. eventually they realise that they've been lying to themselves for all this time, and they decide that they won't anymore.

As for the part about pople finding what you say offensive, what did you expect? There are few people that don't agree with you who wouldn't find bigoted discrimination insulting.