GOD and goofy belief systems. - Page 2

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The crusades were mosr certanly an act of christianity

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Wrong they were acts done by people who may or may not have been Christians and done in the name of God but that does not mean they are acts of Christianity. In fact they are the opposite.

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and the current discrimination against gays

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This one actually is something that Christianity teaches, but you would care nothing for the reasons given.

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s simmilar war could have happened, but it's much less likely, because there would have been no motivation to go to war

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No motivation? If you don't count expansion of an empire, new slaves and servants, and treasure. But yeah I can see how those wouldn't motivate people... Except maybe the Americans.

The Crusades were indeed initiated by christians from europe. While it's true they had their eyes set on the treasures rumored to exist in the middle east, the reason given for the Crusades was to defeat the so-called infidels.

As for the discrimination against homosexuals, though dogmatic christianity may support this, that doesn't make it any more correct than slavery (which as it so happens is also supported in the bible). And don't be so quick to assume we won't care for the reasons. Unless the reasons don't make sense, in which case it's understandable that you don't want to share them.

For the last part, only the upper class would care about things like expanding the empire and slaves and such. The people actually doing the fighting are the ones motivated by religion. So if you take religion out of the equation, it's true they may still have gone to war, but it would be blamed on something else and we wouldn't be having this lovely conversation now.

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Wrong they were acts done by people who may or may not have been Christians and done in the name of God but that does not mean they are acts of Christianity. In fact they are the opposite.

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No, every religion has it's good and it's bad, you'rs is no different, man up and accept that your religion isn't perfect.

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This one actually is something that Christianity teaches, but you would care nothing for the reasons given.

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No it doesn't, the intolerant crusading christians teach this.

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No motivation? If you don't count expansion of an empire, new slaves and servants, and treasure. But yeah I can see how those wouldn't motivate people... Except maybe the Americans.

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yes but there's other ways to do this besides going out and slaughtering all the non-beleivers like cattle. The crusades did more harm than good, but it seems that people fail to realize that anymore.

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No, every religion has it's good and it's bad, you'rs is no different, man up and accept that your religion isn't perfect.

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I realise this is attributed to Christianity what I am saying is that the people responsible were completely wrong. The crusades were not part of Jesus' teaching and they were the opposite.

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No it doesn't, the intolerant crusading christians teach this.

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Clearly you have not read the Bible.
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders" 1 Corinthians 6:9

Homosexuality is wrong because of it's disruption to productive society and it's blatant disregard for God's creation.

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yes but there's other ways to do this besides going out and slaughtering all the non-beleivers like cattle

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Tell that to the soldiers in Iraq.

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So if you take religion out of the equation, it's true they may still have gone to war, but it would be blamed on something else and we wouldn't be having this lovely conversation now.

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This was my first point. Without religion people wouldn't behave better they would simply have different excuses for behaving badly.

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the reason given for the Crusades was to defeat the so-called infidels.

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This is not a Christian teaching. "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Ephesians 6:12

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though dogmatic christianity may support this, that doesn't make it any more correct than slavery (which as it so happens is also supported in the bible)

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Slavery was a way of life at that time and a Christian was not forbidden to have a slave but he was require to treat them justly. Homosexuality is totally different for it undermines society and destroys it inside out.

Alright, first off, yes Jesus did not go around saying, "Smite all who disagree with my teachings." The whole fighting part of the Crusades was completely seperated from the Christian theology. However, the crusaders, or those in charge if you will, used Christian theology as well as the times they lived in to generate fear of the muslims, thus an excuse for war.

Now if your going to quote scripture at me over the issue of homosexuality, why don't you go looking in the new testament for the time when Jesus told his disciples to eat food that was, by old testament standards, considered to be unclean. If you recall on that occasion, Jesus said that with his arrival on Earth the rules of the old testament no longer applied. All that a faithfull person would have to do to be saved would be to put their faith in Jesus Christ and the forgiveness he represented. Thus, I'm going to kindly disregard any rule and commandment that was written in the old testament, with exception to the cardinal ten, while talking about christianity. While it's true the old testament is as much a part of christianity as it is judaism, the new testament says explicitly that the rules of the old testament are obsolete.

Now soldiers in Iraq. Just because the militant fundemental muslims of the middle east are doing this, does that mean we should "slaughter them like cattle" or support such actions?

Alright, great, so according to Ephesians 6:12 we're supposed to go after evil leaders of the world right? These rulers of this dark world. So I guess then that's why the leaders always get captured and ransomed instead of us ignoring the masses that are standing in the way, even if they don't want to, and just going right for these dark throats of theirs.

OK, now this I have problems with. So slavery was a part of life, great. Guess what? Homosexuality is a part of life too. Like it or not, it's true. And please before you say it's anti-productive and is destroying society, please show me how. Because from where I'm sitting, we're looking at overpopulation already. So let's see... a portion of the population figures out that they are attracted to the same sex. Great that's that many people who won't be having children and increasing the problem.

Finally one point I realized I missed earlier on but I just wanted to adress it. If this is truly God's creation, then why not enjoy everything in it? Since Jesus lifted the restrictions placed on us by the old testament why not just live and let live? The only rules are those in the ten commandments according to christianity, well that and don't eat from the trees in eden, but anyway. So it's a disregard of God's creation to enjoy it. Right, now excuse me, but I'm gonna look outside and enjoy the blue sky, the trees, and the cute little animals running around. Pardon me if I'm sinning.

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However, the crusaders, or those in charge if you will, used Christian theology as well as the times they lived in to generate fear of the muslims, thus an excuse for war.

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I do not disagree that people twisted the word of God to justify their bad behaviour.

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Thus, I'm going to kindly disregard any rule and commandment that was written in the old testament

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That's fine because I was quoting from the new testament.

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we're supposed to go after evil leaders of the world right? These rulers of this dark world

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The evil rulers of this world are not people but Satan and his demons. This is spiritual warfare bodily destruction serves no purpose in it.

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And please before you say it's anti-productive and is destroying society, please show me how.

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Homosexual activity destroys the concept of marriage which is the building block of society. Without it children become neglected or abused because they lack a stable enviroment in which to grow.

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Homosexual activity destroys the concept of marriage which is the building block of society. Without it children become neglected or abused because they lack a stable enviroment in which to grow.

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Simply stating the same thing over and over again does not make you any more right, you have to provide a reason, and not meaningless bias. So untill you can provide an actual reason, i will be disinclined to beleive you.

Furthermore, if i'm not mistaken, doesn't JESUS say in the new testament that "love thy neighbor as you love me"? it doesn't say love thy neighbors who are just like you, or love thy neighbors except for those previously mentioned. don't hate something just because it's different. if people did that, then there wouldn't even be a bible, and chances are we would all be either jewish or islamic (not that that's a bad thing).

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The evil rulers of this world are not people but Satan and his demons. This is spiritual warfare bodily destruction serves no purpose in it.

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People have been saying things like this for thousands of years, but that doesn't mean they're right, and often times these words resulted in the deaths of many innocent people. A good example of this is the Salem Witch Trials, or the afforementioned Crusades. just calling someone satan because they're not "just like you" doesn't make you any better than they are. and history shows that statements like this are not only useless, but actually move society backwards.

I won't deny that the crusades were a misintrupretation of the christian faith and texts, but the people who promoted the crusades are the same sort of people who preach against homosexuality today. just the fact that in a 2000 year-old religious work it says that homosexuality is a "defilement of nature" doesn't make it so. I have no doubt that the people who started the crusades interpreted the bible in much the same way as to prove their point, but that doesn't make either point vallid.

God, I just lost 30 minutes of typing. Okay, here it goes again:

When I made my original post I had a very specific subject in mind. That subject is SOCIAL ENGINEERING.

You're probably saying--what the heck? Let me explain what I mean, and what in my mind is social engineering.

Let us look at less than spectacular examples of social engineering: Lenin's founding of the Communist party. Hitler's purging of the Jewish people--a.k.a., the Holocaust. Mao's rule of China. Musolini's rule of Italy. You get the point.

Not only were these people psychotic criminals and dictators of the worst kind, but they were people who had a social vision. They attempted to perform a fundamental revision to the way society worked. Either by applying socialist or fascist concepts to running a society.

Anyway, these people I mentioned were a-holes, and enought time spent on them.

Now lets look at people who did some really great social engineering: Jesus Christ, Moses, Muhamed, and yes, the founding fathers of our constitution.

Wether the revolutionary paradigm shift occured because of religious or secular philosophy, these people moved the world in a better direction.

So I guess my point is that during our history there have been a lot of really smart people who made the world a whole hell of a lot better. Sometimes through religion, sometimes not. But ultimately the gifts they laid at society's feet were limited to what was possible in the context of their societies.

Laies and gentlemen, does anyone think that maybe it would be a nice thing to have one of these nice little improvements happen again?

For example, imagine a world where criminals are actually rehabilitated. Our founding fathers thought it was possible, but I guess we just gave up somewhere along the way.

How about a world in which education is both free and MANDATORY? Maybe even fund the schools better than our military--wouldn't THAT be insane?

How about a world in which we take care of the weak and the poor. Maybe even throw in social services such as free healthcare and retirement for everyone... (Even though it's a clitche, one of these days we may take it seriously.)

Or how about a world in which we value people over money?

Am I crazy, or do we live in a world that spends too much time looking back at the leaders of the past, not at the leaders which we should be looking for?

How come idiotic things such as prayer in school is a central political issue, but all the other IMPORTANT things are left out by everyone?

Am I CRAZY?!?!?

And before I get any hate mail: I am NOT a communist or a nazi. I am actually a refugee from the former Soviet republic of Hungary. I hated the communists only slightly less than the nazis. (My uncle spent time in one of the smaller concentration camps in Germany.)

Your not crazy. Nothing would make me hapier than to see all, if not some, of those little ideas you mentioned come to pass. People do spend way too much time examining the past and saying how good it was while letting the future sort of sit there and rot. Anyway where am I going with this? I really don't know, but I agree with you for what it's worth.

Thank you, at least one person has validated my existence for today. Now for the other 6.5 billion...

You know, I don't really expect everyone to just jump up after reading my posts and say "Hey, let's change the world." But I do wish it....

I guess I just want people in the media and the public spotlight to start talking about things that scare the crap out of politicians.

Things politicians can't address without upsetting the status quo for the upper echelon. Things that the average joe will never even think about....

Okay, enought rambling. What do you think?

I think you make a good point. The media should be prepared to ask the questions that scare politicians, instead of asking the same old predictable ones. Maybe then we would have fewer corrupt officials.

think of what? what scares the politicans or about what you said which by the way was pretty good. what scares the politicans is me, and the fact that they don't uphold the constiuion

Surprisingly I don't think corruption is the problem. (It's as natural part of the political process as tires are to cars.) I'm more concerned about the status quo.

The person who has the least to loose when the status quo is upset is the poorest and richest person. The poor--for obvious reasons--have nothing to loose. The rich on the other hand are usually very well insulated by their money and status.

The middle class on the other hand has just enough to want to keep it, but not enough to protect it. ("It" can mean anything; car, house, alimony payments, etc...)

It then follows that it is the middle class that insulates society against self destructive phenomenon. See: Revolution. Also see: civil unrest.

My worry is that we are going to bicker about the merits of intelligent desing untill the middle class shrinks--yes, indeed it is shrinking--to the point where society starts breaking down along the fractures that it exhibits now. See:drug use. See: corrupt criminal justice system. See: ultra conservatism and liberalism. Also see: Civil rights erosion.

These are the things which make me write in this forum. What do you think?

I do agree with most of your prosposed reforms. It was jefferson who said the people should revolt every 20 years to keep the government honest and in touch, granted thats a bad job of paraprhaseing but you get the point. Reforms are necessary to keep this country great. Any ideas on how to accomplish them?