If there's a god, why is there evil? - Page 4

WHAT?

Dugbug:

Is this really you or someone else. I find it hard to believe this coming from a 14 year old.

If it's proof you want, you can't have it. You just have to believe or not believe. There is no proof.

Proof is for the scientist. Believe it or not, some scientists believe they have found proof. However, only believe and it will never be accepted by the scientific community as proof.

Atheist I know struggle with this. Because it has to be difficult to believe there is no God.

However, some believers also struggle, they want proof.

You either believe or you don't believe. I would not be able to prove to you that there is a God. And you would not be able to prove to me that there is not.

Mother Theresa is just one example. Many in the Christian world agree, her doctrinal beliefs were insane. Never-the-less - the women communed with God. Her life was proof of it. Not to many people would argue with me on that. It doesn't matter what doctrine you choose to follow. What's important is how much faith you have in God.

And in other religions, Hindu, Buddhist, Indian, etc. There will be heroes and hypocrites.

Peace and Love : )

Dear MG:

I wish I hadn't mentioned evolution. I remember I once made a comment about Einstien that it made a young man so angry he was almost in tears. I had to stand back and apologize to him. Concerning Evolution. It depends on what article you read or what channel you watch or what portion of evolution you wish to discuss. The media as it has been proven to me time to time is very poor in stating the facts. The scientific community is mixed almost 50/50 on this subject. There is just as much proof as there is disproof. And in the big bang theory which is a part of the evolution theory, some believe they have proof of God. Maybe they have.

Catholicism is the beginning of all Christian Churches. However the Christian religion is a brake off from the Jewish religion and the jewish religion is a brake off from the Hindu religion. The Moslim religion is a brake off from the Christian Religion. The Buddhist religion is a brake off from the Hindu religion. There are hundreds of smaller religions scattered throughout the world, but most of them unfortunatly have been destroyed by so called holy wars. Many Holy scriptures have lost along with many traditions. Many are trying to recapture these things.

If you study religion you will find it fascinating, and when you understand it, it becomes a magical world, not an enemy so many fear.

You are right. In the bible, several places in different ways it mentions God as the creator of evil.

I'm a little behind on the conversation, but I figured what the heck..

okcitykid:

Mars is warming up, he told me, and they don' know how or why, they suspect bacteria. The ice is melting and there are small amounts of water. He said that in a 1000 years, Mars might become habitable.

I'm not sure why you think this is a miracle. If habitation of Mars is to save us, it needs to be habitable much sooner than in 1000 years. Even if you chopped that number down to 500 years, within a century we should easily have the technology to get off the planet and inhabit space, the moon, Mars, .. any place you want. The fact that no one knows why it's happening doesn't say much. We recently found out the atmosphere is denser than previously thought. If we knew so little about its atmosphere, why should we know anything about it's changing climate?

The earth is supposed to be in an ice age right now. They don't know why we are not.

I wasn't aware of this fact. When was this ice-age supposed to begin, and when was it supposed to end? If it was going to start within the last few centuries, human world domination should have had enough of an impact of world climate to possibly offset the ice-age.

Have you ever heard of the green house theory - we should not even be alive.

If by green house theory you mean the idea that light easily penetrates the atmosphere, delivering heat to the Earth, but does not let heat escape as easily causing it to heat up, I see no reason why we should be dead. If you are referring to another green house theory, please clarify. I am a skeptic when it comes to religious matters, especially when it comes to miracles and intervention. I hope you don't take it as an attack. I simply want to know how you reached your conclusions. Maybe you'll convert me

ÇåPtÂìÑñ€mØ:

Now add in the fact that a woman would have had to simultaneously evolve alongside the man, chronologically speaking, each step of the way. This is completely implausable.

I think you misunderstood evolution. Men and women do not evolve separately/independently. Women give birth to both men and women, and what comes out is a genetic mix of the mother and father, thus men and women automatically stay close genetic relatives.

If you mean before humans required an opposite sex to reproduce, I would guess the asexual species would've broken off into 2 sexes who were close relatives to begin with, otherwise at least one of the sexes would've been drastically different from the original asexual parent. Major differences are not characteristic of genetic mutation.

Let's look at the probability that man evolved over many years with many changes. It is, in fact, highly improbable.

One theory to explain this is that through many big bang cycles, intelligent life did NOT develop. If in one of billions and billions of cycles it did happen, which it eventually would if it is at all possible, we would be (and are) asking questions about the unlikeliness of our evolutionary existence. Therefore it may be unlikely, but this unlikeliness is perfectly synchronized with our existence in time, that's why we're here. The odds of it happening are low, but the odds of it happening GIVEN that there's someone intelligent there to see it are actually quite high. Does that make any sense?

An alternate explanation for evolution has to do with quantum mechanics (modern physics). In quantum physics, particles have more than one property at any given time, as if several variations of the particle instantly co-exist in parallel universes. These variations interact with each other, and all add up to what you see when you look at a particle. The interesting thing is that if you could create a large enough coherent quantum system, it would be as if all variations of system simultaneously exist in parallel universes.

Scientists are trying to use quantum behavior for use in computation (do a search for quantum computing). The way this relates to evolution is, and I'll simplify things greatly, in a quantum system like this, if one of the parallel universes happened to form something useful (a protein, an amoeba), then that may have been a dominant constituent in the sum of those universes, adding up to what we actually see. It's a shortcut for nature and evolution, because as long as it forms such a quantum system, that system may intelligently design itself, without a God, aliens, or any outside intervention. If ant-like artificial intelligence can ever arise in normal computers, then almost God-like intelligence can arise in quantum computers -- they are so unimaginably more powerful. Anyway, all this may or may not have played a key role in evolution, but you certainly can't dismiss "random mutations" when these are the things building blocks of the universe do.

..on a side note, scientists speculate that the brain may be a type of quantum computer, which may help explain consciousness and intelligence in humans.

Think4yourself

I believe in God, I believe God created evil, and I think the idea of evolution is stupid, I don't believe I came from an ape.

When I believe something is a miracle, it must be a miricle to me.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Nothing further to discuss.

But thank you for starting this thread, I am happy to have expressed my opinion.

Hi! Still waiting for my avatar, lol!

There are many things to comment to here, but I can only summarize to maybe explain the majority.

The idea of man being asexual is certainly a stretch. There are no warm blooded mammals that are asexual. This is virtually non supportive of evolution.

The idea that evil was created to tempt man is understandable, but is not in accordance to what the Bible says.

The Bible clearly explains that Satan at one time was in good standing with God. He was actually the bearer of light. He conversed with God. He was actually a worshiper of God. Then he became an apostate. He "opposed (Satan)" God. He then "slandered (diabolos -devil)" God.

Satan chose to oppose God based on his own free will. This was not part of God's plan.

If God's plan were to allow evil to run rampant in the earth, you would not have many promises throughout the scriptures that indicate the earth will eventually become a paradise, as God had originally intended, where there will be no more sickness and death. Notice below please:

*** Isaiah 35:5-7 ***

5 At that time the eyes of the blind ones will be opened, and the very ears of the deaf ones will be unstopped. 6 At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does, and the tongue of the speechless one will cry out in gladness. For in the wilderness waters will have burst out, and torrents in the desert plain. 7 And the heat-parched ground will have become as a reedy pool, and the thirsty ground as springs of water. In the abiding place of jackals, a resting-place for [them], there will be green grass with reeds and papyrus plants.

*** Revelation 21:3-4 ***

3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: 'Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.'

*** Job 33:25 ***

Let his flesh become fresher than in youth;
Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.'

*** Isaiah 65:21-25 ***

And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage. 22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them. 24 And it will actually occur that before they call out I myself shall answer; while they are yet speaking, I myself shall hear.

25 'The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent, his food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,' Jehovah has said.

*** Rbi8 Psalm 37:10-11, 29 ***

And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.

11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.

A german philosopher, Leibniz thought about this little paradox.
He concluded that because of the very nature of the universe, the world was as perfect as *possible*. That through some evil now, an even greater amount of good will emerge later because of it.

I don't think there really is any other way to explain it.

"The idea of man being asexual is certainly a stretch. There are no warm blooded mammals that are asexual. This is virtually non supportive of evolution."
I think you misunderstood. He meant that the initial bacteria were asexual and as they complexified eventually they turned into sexual beings.
Rather interesting to think how this would happen. My guess is when an asexual being eventually develloped independent sexual organs (say an organ to keep eggs and another organ that makes the stuff which "activates" them) then that being would eventually have the ability to split in to (for survival, think of marsupials, they give birth early and are able to abandon their offspring earlier if they have to) and that gave us the first thing resembling male and female.

--"He meant that the initial bacteria were asexual and as they complexified eventually they turned into sexual beings.
Rather interesting to think how this would happen."--

I kinda know how this happened or could shed some light. There are still some bacterias that do this today. It is called confugation. Some bacteria can trade off their DNA with other bacteria by conecting such things called Pili. This is probably what lead to sexual reproduction. (I knew bio would come in handy,though I had to crack out the notebook)

BUT to get back on topic-
--"He concluded that because of the very nature of the universe, the world was as perfect as *possible*. That through some evil now, an even greater amount of good will emerge later because of it."--

I believe that the world is as perfect as possible in the sense that it is/was inhabitable by life and that that life would then be able to co-exist with laws of nature and an equilibrium.

Also, I wish I had some proof that some evil will lead to more good. That sounds like it is a good idea.

The use of Nukes during WW2. Stopped any further bloodshed. And avoided any bitter invasion the US would have to undergo which would probably make it less keen to help Japan.

Or for example, murdering Geo. Bush Senior before he made Junior

1 Samuel 16:14-15 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him. (15) And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

But I do like the scripture quote about there being no evil in the end. I think I know why God made evil, but I can never really know for sure. And I hope also that it is for a good cause ultimatly and believe that it is.

There are definite scriptural references to God creating evil:



Rbi8 Isaiah 45:7



(Ecclesiastes 7:14) On a good day prove yourself to be in goodness, and on a calamitous day see that the [true] God has made even this exactly as that, to the intent that mankind may not discover anything at all after them.



(Isaiah 10:6) Against an apostate nation I shall send him, and against the people of my fury I shall issue a command to him, to take much spoil and to take much plunder and to make it a trampling place like the clay of the streets.



(Jeremiah 18:7) At any moment that I may speak against a nation and against a kingdom to uproot [it] and to pull [it] down and to destroy [it],



(Amos 3:6) If a horn is blown in a city, do not also the people themselves tremble? If a calamity occurs in the city, is it not also Jehovah who has acted?

Did God create Satan to be evil, or did Satan willingly become evil? That's important to determine.

We know that there is evil, the question is why. Not how.