If there's a god, why is there evil? - Page 8

Tanker - Don't you find it dubious that today's man should be held accountable for the sins of our supposed ancestor?

"God does ask for obedience that you give everything to him. But he knows man will not do so. His love never changes because his love is unconditional and unchangable."
And yet he creates some of us knowing we will sin and casts us into hell forever. No, no sense at all! A good God would simply not create us and spare us the pain.

Finally, I don't think denying God is a sin. Am I destined for hell, do I deserve hell, because in my opinion I've seen little or no reason to believe in God? If God loves me and wants me to love and believe in him then he should show the world some better evidence then a few questionable books.

No, we are NOT held accountable for the sin of our ancestor's, we are held accountable for OUR sins. Whether you are Christian or Athiest, no one can deny we do wrong. Whether it be lying to our parents, cheating on a test, or anything of that sort.

God creates us with free will, and you can quote me on this all you want, if you deny God you deserve Hell.

Yes, you are destined for Hell because you deny Him. He has given us proof enough of his existence by this little thing we call THE UNIVERSE. And he hasn't written a few questionable books, he wrote one book that is all that needed to live a fullfilling life as long as you follow its laws. If need be, I can show you some things that prove God, such as, you can go back in the history books and see in the Roman records that a man named Jesus was crucified for the exact same reasons explained in the Bible.

Strongclad: You're absolutely right - you write to much. Let me see if I can remember all your questions.

1. This thread has been going on since before I got here. I found it and said, wow - cool. Who dare ask such questions? I have not read the entire thread, it is too much for me to read.

2. I disagreed with the Good and Evil question. We could go on forever on that. Mr. Humble brought that up - I suggested he make a new string, he did, it died, and we're back here talking about the same old thing. I say, ah the hell with it, lets talk about it.

3. I read the bible when I was 13. I have been a member of the Catholic Church, Pentecostal Church, LDS and RLDS and everything in between. I am now a member of the Unitarian church. I am well versed on the subject of Christianity - you could not possibly offend me. I hope I do not offend you. I think it is great you believe what you do and it is ok to share as far as I'm concerned. I have also briefly studied all the other major religions. If you was to do this, I think you would be surprised what you might find.

Concerning the question of this thread - I think I have a glimpse of the answer - but I don't think I or anyone else here has the answer. I do believe that the originator of this thread had meant to flounder the belief in God, but I think that the opposite is happening. And it's cool.

" If there were no evil, good in itself would not be considered "good" because it would be the behavior of all beings. If there were no good, evil would not exist because "evil" actions would not be considered evel without having a "good" to compare it to.
Just my thoughts" I agree - that goes along with the Ying and Yang thing. But there is an evil we're not understanding. All the religions will in their own way try to teach you the great goodness (becomeing one with God). But what about evil - what is that all about. Maybe I'm reaching, and maybe I should just quit it.

Crimson_Saint - I wish I could make my case for Christianity in short, but my reasons for believing are more numerous than I would like to write about on this thread. That's why I keep recommending books by authors who know what there talking about in which they tackle the same subjects.

"If God exists, I doubt a book would be able to describe him well."
I'm just making an assumption, and pardon me if I'm wrong, but when you make this statement, I tend to think that you may not have read the Bible or given it a chance. I think that this is why many atheists (and not necessarily you) don't believe in God. Many atheists have already made up their minds in what they believe because they've already closed their minds to the belief in God.

The Bible, is the record of God interacting with humankind throughout history. It contains His words, His actions, and His promises to humanity. In the mix of all of that, you cannot say that it lacks in describing Him. Many scholars, professors, and scientists have written books stating evidence of why the Bible is reliable and trustworthy. Those who wish not to test it have already closed their minds to it.

"Evils exist, no denying it and IF God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient, THEN THESE EVILS ARE IN FACT ONLY PERCEIVED EVILS, and they must lead to greater good."
I'm sorry, can you explain what you're meaning by PERCEIVED EVILS?

"Though I find it dubious that you trust an outdated book more then your own feel and personal relationship with God. There is no reason to believe the Quran is less true then the Bible."
Time after time after looking at the claims by people who think that the Bible is contradicting or untrue, I find an author who uses evidence to shoot those claims down. Too many people think the Bible is outdated with out any justification. Just because it has no photographs or videos of the miracles or the things it states has happened, doesn't mean it is untrue. It's like saying that if in the next two thousand years nobody lands on the moon, that the historical event that really did happen must not be trustworthy because it's listed in outdated material.

Sure I have a relationship with God, but in no way can I use my feelings from that relationship as a basis for truth. Feelings may reveal the presence of God in someone's life, but feelings are too subjective to use as a basis for the truth of God. Feelings are personal and can't be used to prove anything really. Our feelings sometimes lie to us as most of you know. There are many people in this world, who get this so called "Spiritual" feeling when they think God is with them. Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, New Agers, all get these feelings, but with all the differing beliefs, not all can be right just because they say they've felt the presense of God. I know someone who is a fan of the Insane Clown Posse and has told me that all their songs are really about God among all their profanity. Whenever she goes to one of their shows, she says she feels the presence of God. But I would bet based on their actions, that they really have no clue what they're talking about.

I wouldn't believe what I believe if it wasn't true. Sure, people from many different faiths say the same thing, but not all come up as reliable when tested.

The Bible is the basis for who we are as Christians. It's our guide for living as God would want us to live. But if you get rid of the Bible and all the information it contains, we have nothing. We wouldn't know who God is and what He has done if His dwellings on earth weren't recorded or handed down in one way or another. No Bible - No Christianity. Tanker summed up Christianity in his post, and all of that is true and based from the Bible.

I don't believe the Qur'an, because of it's claims. I'll give you an example which I'm borrowing from the CHRISTIAN RESEARCH JOURNAL.

The Qur'an is held in the highest position of authority for the Muslim and believe it to be true down to the word. (I guess in a sense it is to Muslims as the Bible is to Christians - it's God's word.) So by that, it must be true if it is from God. But in it's pages there is something wrong.

The Qur'an directly addresses the biblical docturne of the Trinity, and misrpresents it. Note these words:

"They are truly infidels who say:"God is the Christ, son of Mary." But the Christ had only said:"O children of Israel, worship God who is my Lord and your Lord." Whosoever associates a pompeer with God, will have Paradise denied to him by God, and his abode shall be Hell; and the sinners will have none to help them. DISBELIEVERS ARE THEY SURELY WHO SAY:"GOD IS THE THIRD OF THE TRINITY;" BUT THERE IS NO GOD OTHER THAN GOD THE ONE. And if they do not desist from saying what they say, then indeed those among them who persist in disbelief will suffer painful punishment...The Christ, son of Mary, was but an apostle, and many apostles had(come and) gone before him;and his mother was a woman of truth. They both ate the (same) food (as men). Behold, how We show men clear signs, and behold, how they wander astray!...Tell them:"O people of the Book, do not overstep the bounds of truth in your beliefs, and follow not the wishes of a people who had erred before, and led many others astray , and wandered away from the right path."(Sura 5:72-73, 75,77)

It is clear that the Qur'an is not an inspired document, for it is clear that it's author did not understand the doctrine of the Trinity, WHICH ALREADY HAD BEEN ESTABLISHED CLEARLY AND TAUGHT FOR CENTURIES. To say "God is a third of the Trinity" is to completely misrepresent the doctrine. The Father is not a third of God, nor is the Son, nor is the Spirit. Each is fully God. God's being cannot be divided. It is simple(i.e., not compund, not made up of parts)and indivisible.

When it is pointed out to them that the doctrine of the Trinity, in all of it's classical expressions, begins and ends with the affirmation of the unity (indivisibility) of God's being and the absolute truth of monotheism, the response is to question the accuracy of the definitions, for the Qur'an says otherwise! This brings us back to the authority issue and to the fact that the Qur'an misrepresents the doctrine, a fact that demonstrates the true nature of the Qur'an's status as a supposed revelation from God.

So my arguement from this example is to say that there is reason to believe the Qur'an is less true than the Bible. Everything must be based on truth, and not just that, also truth that is knowable. We know that God exists because He has shown us He does. If He didn't, and if we were alone without Him, we might still be sacrificing babies to the Asherahs and the Baals. (check the Old Testament)

I just want to make a suggestion; when you wish to assert the truth of something, give evidence that backs up your claim. I try to do the same in my posts, as I am trying to relay truth. I try not to make assumptions on anything, because when you're trying to make a point to someone, you don't want to assert an ungrounded opinion, or an outright lie.

Like this opinion:"if (IF) homosexuality is evil, then it is not a gay's fault he is evil. Its not his fault he is attracted to men, its not his choice, its his genes."

Has it been proven that genes cause people to be gay? And if it's in the genes, how come there are fathers of homosexuals that aren't gay? If genes are to blame for a persons actions and if they're passed on from your father's genes, shouldn't he be gay too? Or is it just a mutation in the transfer of genes from father to son? Is he just a by-product of so-called evolution? And can that mutation be proven?

These are the aspects of an arguement. Just wanted to state that.

I wish not to offend anyone, that's not my intentions. I'm just assertive in getting things right. I'm pretty anal when it comes to detail and trying to get people to think logically.

Peace.

WOW!!!WHAT A WHOPPER!!!

Hey Yo.

Im new here, but this looks like a pretty rad place to discuss things.

Anyhoo, great writing Strongclad. Never have I seen such an argument put so succintly, or so well written. Precise and to the point without sound too preachy. Well done. Being a Christian myself, it is good to see such people taking such a stand online.

Well done.

Underdawg - "Yes, you are destined for Hell because you deny Him. He has given us proof enough of his existence by this little thing we call THE UNIVERSE."
There are other explanations for the universe then some omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient entity. The big bang theory has holes in it, but FAR less then the idea of God.

Strongclad - "I'm just making an assumption, and pardon me if I'm wrong, but when you make this statement, I tend to think that you may not have read the Bible or given it a chance."
I've not read the whole thing. I've read numerous extracts though. I've read many of the old testament's laws as well as some of the new testament's, I've read most of Genesis and I have a copy the new testament in my room.
But no, I've never given it a serious read, but from actions of religious people and many extracts of the bible, I've found that its probably an outdated book.

" Many scholars, professors, and scientists have written books stating evidence of why the Bible is reliable and trustworthy."
And many scholars have shown that the book itself contradicts itself many times.

"I'm sorry, can you explain what you're meaning by PERCEIVED EVILS? "
Well, for example, lets say someone who died in the WTC was going to be the next Hitler and would have been responsible for the deaths of millions of people, the WTC attack would ultimately be a good thing. But we always will perceive it as evil.

"The Bible is the basis for who we are as Christians. It's our guide for living as God would want us to live. But if you get rid of the Bible and all the information it contains, we have nothing."
I doubt you are trully living by the BIble's laws, old or new testament. The Bible's laws can be strict and the punishments brutal.

"It is clear that the Qur'an is not an inspired document, for it is clear that it's author did not understand the doctrine of the Trinity, WHICH ALREADY HAD BEEN ESTABLISHED CLEARLY AND TAUGHT FOR CENTURIES. To say "God is a third of the Trinity" is to completely misrepresent the doctrine. The Father is not a third of God, nor is the Son, nor is the Spirit. Each is fully God. God's being cannot be divided. It is simple(i.e., not compund, not made up of parts)and indivisible."
Well perhaps what was being taught for centuries was simply wrong and the Quran corrected the old belief. Just as Christ supposedly came to correct the beliefs of the Jews.

"Has it been proven that genes cause people to be gay? And if it's in the genes, how come there are fathers of homosexuals that aren't gay? If genes are to blame for a persons actions and if they're passed on from your father's genes, shouldn't he be gay too?"
Its called recessive genes. The "gay" gene wouldn't always express itself if you also have a "straight" gene. But no I have no proof for this claim. But it seems to be the most likely explanation.
Are you attracted to men? Do you have to suppress an attraction to men? If not, then you are different then a gay because he is attracted to men (not by choice) but probably because of his genes or possibly environment.

But in that case, back up your claim. Why does God exist, what is this strong evidence leading to the belief that an omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient entity exists.

"Wow Crimson you are a tuff nut to crack..."
I'm not sure if that is a compliment or not

" but here goes...just tossing around thouights..no disrespect intended.... "
Don't worry about respect or lack of thereof!

"With this said...why do you find the big bang theory more believable than creation and God?"
Because of 3 main reasons :
First because the way the stars are moving shows that they must have orginated from one spot, I'm not a astronomist so I can't go into details. But yes, I have some faith, but its only in that scientists are not lying when they show the evidence leading to the belief of the big bang theory.
If I were to believe in God, I would have to put faith in the words of a priest as opposed to any real evidence.
Second because over the years the views of the church have been contested time and time again, with numerous schisms and a few pardons to scientists on the way. I would think the word of God would be timeless.
Third because the Big Bang is very counterintuitive. Which is pretty much expected since our brains were made for hunting gazellerather then understanding the universe.

"all that need happen is a repenting of sins, changing of lifestyle"
Unless you feel attracted to men here, I don't think you can really tell a gay to repent. I'm attracted to girls not through any decision of my own but by simple instinct and feel. I imagine it must be identical for a gay except he feels attracted to men.

"He will pronounce them dead and it will be so. That's power I will not mess with. I want to be on His side , not the opposition!"
Then do you pray to him because you think he is good? Or do you pray to him because you fear he will crush you otherwise? Either way, it is not a reason to believe in Christ. I will take my chances and continue believing Christ will probably not return.

"I look at God's existance this way...If God does not exist, then words like (and I am only showing examples not advocating or condoning blasphemy) goddamn, and the misuse of Christ's name would not be so tabboo, in any society, let alone ours."
You are wrong. God does not have to exist for blasphemous words to be taboo. All you need is a majority in society which believes in God and that blasphemous words are evil and taboo.
Big difference.

"Atheists would have no purpose in life as a spiritual being without the existance of God."
Perhaps my purpose in life is to be happy? An atheist can have any number of purposes... Whether it be amassing wealth, helping others, discovering new theories, all in the goal of being happy.

"If there is no God then there is no reason to say it, the argument of religion would then be I do not believe what others believe, not a complete denial of an entity or being."
I didn't grasp that... Just because I understand the concept of God and can refer to him does not mean he exists. Just as people can refer to a flat earth and say "The earth is not flat."

tanker: I can believe that God has been and will always be. That's not hard for me to believe. Because to me that makes sense even though its not possible and that doesn't make sense. In the physical realm I can believe that we suffer from our ancestors sins. Back in the 1960s when our country was rich enough to buy the. They were not responsible. Now a mother and father have to both work to afford to buy a house and feed their children. This was not so in the 1960s. Carelessness, prejudice, etc. We suffer. I can buy that. I do believe in a heaven and a judgment. When I stand before that judgment, I will not be accused of my fathers sins. Just like the police will not come to my house, take me to court and convict me for sins my father did. My father will pay for his sins, and I will pay for mine. However, on earth, in this body, I do suffer sins that my father did to a certain degree. Genetic, emotional. The way my mother fed me and what she fed me. My father and mother smoking, etc.

Almost all the religions have their creation story. It is wrong to believe that one is right and all the others are wrong. But if we look at it differently for its meaning and not historical accuracy, there is much wisdom to be found in the story. The serpent represents evil. I do not believe in a devil. I do believe in evil - it is a subject (for our own good) we should study. But concerning us. In all religions, science, philosophy and psychology. A common theme is taught about the Ego. Calling it many different things but describing the same thing. the Ego causes us to do good things and bad things. It is us, and this is where it gets complicated. We make a mistake if we call the Ego evil. However it can become evil if we mistake it for god. Like God it is. This is the likeness of God within each of us. The world teaches us that the ego must be protected from harm (even though it can be bad). Religion teaches us to give up the ego and become a part of God. I think Christianity misses the mark on this. Christian teachers are convincing people that they have done this already (they call it salvation, born again, etc.) Study it, that is not the true teaching of Christianity. The way I understand it is that you must first go through the baptism of fire first before you can even come close to it. All the religions teach this similar theme.

My father believed in a teaching that - you could do what ever you want to. You are saved by grace, Jesus already paid for you. I don't think so. Though I do not believe in a hell. I believe that we are reincarnated again and again until we finally get to that point unless we really mess up, then its just death, our light is snuffed out and we are no more. I believe in a place called purgatory that we might also go to, A Catholic Priest showed that to me in the bible. I think that the life and death of Jesus has something to do with our salvation, I don't know how, and I don't think its important to believe that to be saved. That is the silly part of Christianity. What does believing that Jesus died for your sins have to do with salvation. I DON'T THINK SO. In the bible it says the Demons believe this also and they are not saved. Where did this stupid silly idea come from? Jesus may be a part of the process. But our belief or disbelief will not make it so or make it null in void. Our belief in the process is not relevant to its success.

Ok - I've said enough - Peace

As a Unitarian - I have to defend the gay community. In nature there is gay activity in certain animals. Is it possible that this is due to our own medaling in nature. Possibly, Possibly not. I know the bible says some things.

But let me tell you what the bible says. Children who are disrespectful should be stoned. It doesn't say stone them to death, it just says stone them. The jews don't even practice this, yet it clearly states in the law of moses that this should be done. I think Crimson gave a very good explination about the word of God in an earler post - I forgot to thank him for that.

I made a nice long reply and lost it. I'm a bit annoyed so I'll be briefer.

" But the blanket statement that scientists are telling the truth and Priests are not is ludacrous."
That's not what I said. I said I assume scientists are not lying when they show the evidence for the Big Bang and I deduce from that that the Big Bang is likely to have happened.
I also said that priests do not present objective evidence, but merely opinions and their own subjective emotions and spirituality which I do not have.

"The history of the Catholic church seems to be peeking its head through to our discussion, but the Catholic church is just one portion of the church or religion as a whole."
"The schisms were over doctrine and problems within the church. Every church or religious group through out history has had a split of some kind, usually for very siimilar reasons as the great schism from history."
I would think all those who have a relationship with God would get along better, that's what I meant. I find it very strange and peculiar that those who each share this relationship with God cannot agree on such simple things as doctrine.

"" I don't think you can really tell a gay to repent." You can tell a gay person to repent because the act of homosexuality is not natural. It also is prohibited by God. If it was not an abomination to God and a natural/genetic disposition then offspring would result from the mating of two men or two women. But that is not the case...there are no boundaries to extend or stretch, there are no exceptions to this rule, there are no pardons for anyone who lives that way and does not repent and change his ways. Eve was created to be the perfect companion for Adam."
Answer these : Are you attracted to men? What do you think people "choose" to be gay for?

"That in and of itself is the only model for sexual matching and morality that is natural according to the creation provided by God. There are no exceptions....I can't say it any other way. well, try this...its like multiplication tables...2x2 will always equal 4. there are no other ways to get it to equal a different number, unless you DECIDE to add or subtract from 4. Muddy, but I think it works."
I didn't get that at all. Except that since being gay isn't quite natural its evil. Well no, I disagree completely. Unatural things can be good ( medicine, hell buildings and churches!) and many natural things can be bad (base aggressive instincts, rape is often done by instinct).

Finally, you have yet to show how being gay is a choice, you have only shown that being gay is unnatural.

"it still does not make it less taboo or wrong. " (blashepy)
It is only wrong to a religious person. An atheist will seem blashemous words as merely words.

" That can give you purpose and comfort at the darkest times of your life. "
I do not believe in things out of nesescity. I believe in things because I deduce what is most likely given the evidence given to me.

"God is not a "flat earth" concept. He is tangible inn the fact that you can see his creation, you can watch Him work in people's lives as well as your own, and you can always have an ear to listen to you in good and bad times."
A flat earth is very and only tangible to a person who believes in a flat earth. He will feel the ground and say "it feels flat as a table".
In the same way, God is only tangible to a person who believes in God. I've seen no proof of God, and the existence of the universe is not tangible proof for anything except the existence of the universe.
The evidence for the Big Bang is very tangible though. There is the background radiation left from the Big Bang and the fact all stars are moving from the same spot.

But tanker, why do you consider the bible as absolute truth and other books, such as to Quran as wrong?

The Bible is outdated? yeah really. Back when it was written there were many things that were believed but couldn't be explained by science. There was no concept to explain physics. Like when Moses saw the burning bush, he thought Oh, it must be a message from God! When what actually must have happened was from lightning, back then there was no such thing as science.

People knew Jesus was different. He was performing miracles like no one else could. He was healing the sick. But many rejected and ridiculed him because they did not believe.

Lost another post grrrr..

Oh well .. here it goes again.

"The way in which you worded your argument concerning priests and scientists led me to think that you were less inclined to believe what a priest says because you thought them unable to tell the truth."
A priest never shows evidence, he shows what believes.
A scientist shows his theory and then evidence supporting his theory.
That is the difference between the two and it is huge. And as in this debate you have shown little real hard evidence for God, because belief in God is based on emotion and faith.

" Just in general. You must be more clear in the future. I think you perceive faith as an emotion rather than ...well, faith."
Emotions are moot in debates as is faith. Faith by definition is the arbitrary belief in something, and since a priest's beliefs are based on faith, I think that should explain why I do not believe them easily today (not nescessarily lying, but mistaken)

" Anyway, looking for reasons to not believe will become futile."
Actually you've given very few reasons to believe. You have given me an incentive to believe (hope when in need) but I cannot (I don't know how someone could!) believe in based on the advantages of believing in it... No I just don't do that, I believe in things based on the evidence presented and then deducing the most likely thing.

"In fact you yourself conceided in your last post that I proved that homosexuality is unnatural..."you have only shown that being gay is unnatural." If it is unnatural then why would it ever be genetic...mutations don't count."
Actually your right, I assumed it was unnatural, because I myself can't think of any evolutionary advantages to being gay. However, citykid pointed out that some animals can be gay, and I doubt any of our meddling could cause them to be. So perhaps much like a recessive disease genes can be passed on to your children, without being fatal, such is too with "gay" genes.
But regardless it could still just be a matter of environment!

"The big bang theory is about as tangible to me as the Bible is to you."
Only the evidence leading to the belief in the big bang was tangible for me at first, with time so did the big bang. I don't see any reason why the evidence for the big bang is less tangible for you.

" Maybe you shouldn't call yourself an Atheist, you should say your a scientist. That fits more of what you believe. "
I don't believe in any of the most popular beliefs of God. Sounds atheist to me, I'm pretty sure most atheists don't believe in God for the same reasons as me, just they don't debate as much.

"It's interesting that the Bible is seen as outdated...adultery, murder, theft, etc. is all explained in the Bible in almost the exact same way as those crimes are explained in this country's criminal justice code."
Not all the bible is outdated but enough of it is outdated that I'd find it impossible to live my life by it here's a few extracts :
- Most of Genesis really.
- Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)
Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10)
If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)
If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)
If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16)

Number 5:11-31 says that if a woman cheats on her husband, he is to take her to the priest and he will give her "bitter water". If the woman didn't cheat on her husband her pregnancy will continue as it should. But if she did cheat on him, then her belly will swell, her thigh will rot, and she will be a curse among her people.

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)
Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)
(freedom of speech?!)
Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)