If there's a god, why is there evil? - Page 10

I understand what you're saying Crimson_Saint,

"The answer is it would not be fact, but it would be "very probably true". It depends on the occurance. Egyptian kings were known to lie in their archives often recording defeats as victories so they would be remembered later."

but I think you misunderstood my question. When I said that if someone wrote down a fact of occurance, I meant that what he was writing down was actually true. Like, if the Egyptian king wrote down the truth, that he actually lost his victory, wouldn't it still be true thousands of years from now? I was just trying to state that because when someone writes something that is true, it would still be true for the rest of existence. I hope that clears things up.

I agree with you on many points of your last post Crimson_Saint. We must be able to check corroborating sources, achaeology, history, and what we know about the times and the way people lived to get closer to the truth. We also have to find out if there was a reason for anyone to lie.

I'll be straight forward. I would not be a Christian if there was not very trustworthy evidence for Jesus' claims. I intend to show how all these things (well, not all these things, but some examples) make a case for Christianity. Though my research might take me a while. I hope that doens't bother anyone.

"My point was that they're both "magic". No one can explain why either one would have or could have occured."
"No. Man doesn't make everything. They label everything. That was my point. Labels are society specific. We observe, label, identify and that's it."
I agree completely, thanks for the clarifications

"Cause of life just means the duty any species has of ensuring its survival. And as far as not having any debt to the "circle of life", do you honestly believe that we could exist as the sole species on the planet? I don't, so I think it's probably important that we take care of other forms of "life" too. I want to reply to the other post too, but I have to run to work! Talk to you in a bit."
Well we could debate about this, but we've already gone fairly OT so maybe we should start another topic about it?

"I'll be straight forward. I would not be a Christian if there was not very trustworthy evidence for Jesus' claims. I intend to show how all these things (well, not all these things, but some examples) make a case for Christianity. Though my research might take me a while. I hope that doens't bother anyone."
I await impatiently!

Why there is evil in the world if God exists, has to one of the most popular questions of all time. I've come to the conclusion that maybe we as humans don't understand things. We assume that evil is bad and if God is there and he/she is good and really does love us then he/she wouldnt let bad things happen. But do we know the whole workings of the world? Maybe Evil has a part to play in the world. Without evil, there would be no Goodness. There would be no way for humans to make choices. Maybe what we call "evil" is needed in the grand scheme of things for a greater purpose, or for other purposes that we just can't think of. By suffering, we learn things. Maybe God wants us to learn things and to be accountable for what we do. Without Evil, we wouldn't know how good Good really is.

"It does not mean you can't begin to understand them, it means that until you take the step of believing in God, your eyes will remain closed to the"
Alrighty, you still have yet to show any evidence leading to the belief of God though.

"I'm not mad at you, I am merely upset that we could not discuss this topic more intelligently together. I feel that nothing I say or show will ever shed light on anything for you, since you question everything."
Intelligently? I've shown evidence why the Big Bang is true you have shown no evidence why the Bible is true.
I have explained why the Bible is not a very reliable (which is not to say completely untrue) historical document. There are no other contemporary references to Jesus's life and even the book itself was written much after Jesus died.

" I showed you proof of creation and you said, "tit-flesh""
It was to show you the absurdity of your statements. I could have written a book which said the first woman is made from indeed, titfles, why isn't it true? Men don't have breast so its absolute proof. You see the absurdity in my sarcastic statement, why can't you see it in your own?

There is an infinite amount of other explanations why men have one rib less then women.
Your "proof" of creation is only proof that the Creation has some basis in reality. Much like Greek or Nordic legends, it is likely early men noticed that men had one rib less and created speculative legends to explain them.
Your proof does not prove the rest of Creation either, just because one part of the Genesis has a foothold in truth does not mean the whole thing is true. What does men having a rib less have to do with everything being created in seven days?

" It's sad really. The portions of the Bible that are symbolic, you want to see literally...they just aren't literal."
How is one to know when it is symbolic or not? At the time it was written, people trully believed these sort of creation legends quite litteraly. If you look at Chinese or Egyptian legends, both have the entire universe born of an egg. This seems quite absurd today, but at the time it was a litteral explanation of their surroundings.
Why would it be symbolic for one people (the Jews) and yet litteral for just about every other culture around the time.

"Women are not looked down upon in the Bible because they didn't vote or own land or speak inpublic or any other argument you throw out."
Alright I'm sorry, but that is completely sexist.

"BOTH MAN AND THE WOMAN! It can't be more clear than God had a role for both genders, and women's role was merely different not worse."
So your showing that for some laws women had equal rights? Yes, but that doesn't deny the fact that as a rule of thumb within the bible, the woman is portrayed as incapable of making decisions, not worth expressing her opinion and less valuable then men.

"I am not backing away because of lack of ammunition for my cause. It is because of the total denial in front of me...my only weapon in debate now is prayer. You are not open to answers from me or any other Christian, so I must leave this in God's hands. I will continue to pray for you and myself...frankly I think both of us could use all the help we can get. I enjoyed the majority of this discussion, and hope you find something to believe in."
I can't believe this, you have no ammunition. You have shown no evidence except the claim that because men have one less rib obviously the world was created in seven days!

Next time you enter a debate, show evidence damnit. I admit I was getting a insulting towards the end, but frankly you never answer my points or find an alternative explanation to the evidence for the big bang (I provide alternative, more probable explanations to your evidence).
You only spoke about semantics and seemingly used faith as an argument even though by definition it backs my claim. That there is no rational reason to believe God.
You also found flimsy explanations as to why the laws of the old testament are no longer valid. Parts of the old testament are invalid now, yes, but only those laws concerning death. Most of the old testament, be it slave trading, polygamy, intolerance, racism (jewish superiority) and sexism is never specificaly challenged by Christ.
Youyou spoke of the symbolism of the bible. What could be less symbolic then this passage " it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire"

Finally I'd like to end my post with a statement about debates why I think Strongclad understood. In a debate, if one wants to prove something exists, one must present strong evidence that lead to the belief that that thing exists. To DISPROVE you need to show why the evidence presented is faulty. To show that evidence is faulty, I must provide an alternative and prefereably more likely explanation to that evidence (I have done this).

" So lets both agree that each others beliefs, in our own minds, are obsurd...mine of yours and you of my beliefs."
No I will not. Mine beliefs are based on hard, tangible, objective and undeniable evidence. That does not mean my beliefs are unfallible, but it means that I WILL change my beliefs if equaly hard, tangible, objective and undeniable evidence is presented. There.

"I'm sorry if this discussion went poorly for you. You are looking for statistics and tangible truth. Not every truth is tangible."
If the truth is not tangible, then it is not proven. If it is not proven, it *may* be true, but it is to be considered false until proven otherwise.
I will not believe in an intangible "truth" because it would then be no more then an arbitrary belief and I will not do this. Because of 2 reasons :
1 I do not believe arbitrarily. I believe what according to the evidence is likely.
2 If I believe in one arbitrary belief, why shouldn't I believe in another? I could believe in islam, judaism, hinduism or hell even helenism!

"I will not debate any more for the reasons I have stated."
" It is because of the total denial in front of me..."
Denial? Denial of what? Of the subjective proof? You have plenty of subjective proof yes, but you should know that subjective proof has no place in debate.
Or do you mean denial of your 1 piece of objective proof you have presented? That because 1/2 a sentence of the bible (the bible implies Adam has 1 rib less) is true automatically, the entire all of Creation is true?? That is not logic, that is believing what you want to believe.

If anything, you are in denial. Denial of hard facts, facts such as the expanding universe, the background radiation of space.

Finally, if you want to have an arbitrary belief who is not based on any tangible objective truth. You could believe in islam, hinduism, judaism or hell, even helenism and the belief would be just as intangible evidence and thus be an intangible "truth".

Sorry I misread.. END (for real this time )

"You didn't even read my post - I'm not here to argue with you - I'm out of here. "
Ah man, kid stay! I need someone who believes in God but doesn't believe in the Bible to let these christians see the light!"

http://bible.gospelcom.net/

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Timothy does not call it the word of God. The word of God is a phrase coined by Jesus, if you have any intelligence at all, you know he was not talking about the bible.

The bible is a (SMALL) collection of books from a (LIBRARY) of books, most of which had been destroyed and whatever else was left, a group of people got together and decided (this is the word of God/this is not the word of God). Throwing out hundreds of books. And who are they that we to this day believe them? What is now called the bible, considered by many (The Word of God), has brought on bitter debates that cannot be won. Some have died, went to prison, been shunned by loved ones, etc. In the bible you will find hundreds of contradictions that people will fight over. Maybe if we was to realize that it is not the word of God, we would stop fighting. In the bible there are literally hundreds of messages about god and people. In there are stories about real life in a religious context without judgment or condemnation that Hollywood could never reproduce. But I'm here to tell you its just PAPER. If the bible is the word of God, why has it ended? Did God stop talking to us? I'm not going to argue over it. But you're not all going to gang up on Crimson Saint either.

The Word of God is within all who believe in God. You will not find it on a piece of paper. And if that's where you're looking, you're looking in the wrong place. THE BIBLE JUST SIMPLY HELPS US UNDERSTAND WHAT IS ALREADY INSIDE US.

Roger Harkness, The Okcitykid, Oklahoma City, OK Okcitykid@okcitykid.us

"Maybe Evil has a part to play in the world. Without evil, there would be no Goodness. " I think you are close. Evil may be the baptism by fire. Fire is evil, it burns, but the end result is more pure.

Wow! Some crazy arguments have gone down. With hostility even! I've been rereading a bunch of the books I have for the past week or so and have been really busy otherwise, so I haven't been able to post lately. Once I get all my information compiled, I'll write up an argument for the Bible's trustworthiness, and reliability. Well, mainly the New Testament, since that is the main focus for the claims of Christianity. I will either post it here, or start a totally new thread with it so all who visit this website may see it and come to their own conclusions.

I read the last two posts from OKCITYKID and I have some gripes if you don't mind taking some criticism.

He said:

"2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Timothy does not call it the word of God."
For one thing, I don't know if you know this or not, but this letter was written by Paul, TO Timothy. (see 1:1-2) And, when you read anywhere in the New Testament where they use the word "scripture", they are normally referring to the Old Testament.

"The word of God is a phrase coined by Jesus, if you have any intelligence at all, you know he was not talking about the bible."
Well, I don't know if this phrase originated from Jesus, I might need some proof of that. But, it is mentioned elsewhere. Check out Hebrews 4:12 and compare to Proverbs 30:5. So the phrase has been around before Jesus' time on earth.

"The bible is a (SMALL) collection of books..."
Sixty-six books to be exact. Some are letters, poetry, testamonies, and annuls of Israel's history.

"... from a (LIBRARY) of books,"
What library would that be? And what were these books?

" most of which had been destroyed"
Where, when, and by whom were they destroyed?

"and whatever else was left, a group of people got together and decided (this is the word of God/this is not the word of God). Throwing out hundreds of books."
What group of people? And what made them choose the books that we have in our canon? Can you site where you are getting your information?

"And who are they that we to this day believe them?"
Believe me when I say this, I do not mean to be rude, but these are the arguments we get, (arguments that go nowhere) when sources or facts are not sited. It seems that people over the ages have taken the phrase "the word of God" and have applied it to the Bible. Realise that this phrase is a human constructed idea. Some think when Christians use this phrase, that we are speaking literally. It's just another term in the Christianese language that we use to refer to the Bible sometimes. This in-turn gets misunderstood by non-Christians and society. In truth, it's our fault it gets misunderstood since we don't always speak clearly and straightforward.

"What is now called the bible, considered by many (The Word of God), has brought on bitter debates that cannot be won."
Some have died, went to prison, been shunned by loved ones, etc."
Somewhat true. Debates are only considered won, if the proponent of a view convinces his opponent. Otherwise, there are no winners.

"In the bible you will find hundreds of contradictions that people will fight over."
Point some out. Most so-called contradictions can be rectified. People that don't trust the Bible are too eager to say it is full of contradictions, don't normally have proof of any contradictions, and aren't willing to listen when an explanation is given for the SO-CALLED contradiction.

" Maybe if we was to realize that it is not the word of God, we would stop fighting."
The Bible is a record. After reading its contents, it becomes obvious that it was written over a long period of time, by many different authors. It contains the words spoken BY God written by His people. So, you are partly right.

"In the bible there are literally hundreds of messages about god and people. In there are stories about real life in a religious context without judgment or condemnation that Hollywood could never reproduce. But I'm here to tell you its just PAPER."
Why is it unreliable? Can you make such claims with sitations from trustworthy sources? That is if it's just paper!

"If the bible is the word of God, why has it ended? Did God stop talking to us?"
To be short and to the point, the OT tells of Israel making sacrifices at God's temple to atone for their sins. These were made by the priest and presented behind a curtain in the inner sanctuary in the presence of God. Israel kept on sinning, and sacrifice after sacrifice kept having to be made. The prophets told of Jesus' coming. Then God sent Jesus as a sacrifice. Jesus was crucified. The curtain the priests had to go behind to present the sacrifices to God was torn in two when Jesus gave up his spirit. (Matthew 27: 51) This was sign of the breaking of the old covenant (meaning that God needed no more sacrifices) and the starting of a new one (faith in Christ for salvation, and Jesus blood as atonement for our sins). When Jesus appeared to the disciples after his crucifixion, he gave them commands to make disciples, baptize and teach.(Matthew 28: 19-20) Since this has been recorded in each of the four gospels, the letters of Paul, and the rest of the New Testament; and since we have teachings and commands from Jesus; we as Christians know how we are supposed to live our lives. God doesn't need to speak with us face to face anymore, since the fight against evil has already been won through his Son. All we have to do is obey Him and believe, and we will see eternal life.

"I'm not going to argue over it."
Not to be a jerk or anything, but by stating these things you have started a debate, so you pretty much are arguing against any view that is not the one you hold.

"The Word of God is within all who believe in God."
This presupposes that there is one true God that is knowable and puts his "word" within us. Check out what those who wrote the Psalms thought about the word of God.(Psalms 119:9-16)

"You will not find it on a piece of paper."
If it wasn't written on paper, or parchment, or papyrus, it can be concluded that we would not know of any "word of God." How would we know that it was in us?

"And if that's where you're looking, you're looking in the wrong place. THE BIBLE JUST SIMPLY HELPS US UNDERSTAND WHAT IS ALREADY INSIDE US."
Now you're telling me, that the "Word of God" is within us if we believe in Him; That we can't find it on paper (I assume you mean the Bible); yet the Bible helps us understand it? How does that work? If by your reasoning the Bible contains no "Word of God", how can it tell us anything about it?

I would like to quote Romans 3:11, "...there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." This quote is fitting for our day and age. Many seem to think that their view is the right way, but since so many people have differing views, it would be wrong to say that all are right. In essence, society has become its own god, and nobody follows anyone but themselves. Many say that they can know God, but how can that be true if what you know, is different from what someone else knows?

There can be only one God. We should only believe in Him in one way. The only way is by trying to find Him so we can see Him. Could he be described in the Bible? Can it be tested? It tells us:

"Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Good word, Strong.

Why is there Evil and suffering In the World?
The Question implies that if a good god exsists, Then Evil shouldnt' because god being all powerful should stop it.

We need to ask and answer two questions first, What is Evil? It is that which is against god/ It is anything morally bad or wrong.It is Injurious,Depraved, Wicked, Some acceptable examples might be murder,rape,stealing,lying, and Cheating.second, If we want god to stop evil do we want him to stop all evil or just some of it?

I think you are right Shade. These are the major questions we are looking for answers to. But I think that your comments here assume that we already know who God is, when that is definitely not true. Since there are those of us here that have conflicting viewpoints on who God is and what the beliefs in Him should consist of, we must first find out who is right.

You said:

"Why is there Evil and suffering In the World?
The Question implies that if a good god exsists, Then Evil shouldnt' because god being all powerful should stop it."
This statement that you've made implies that we know that God is good and that He should stop evil. But, we must know who God is in fact, to know that He is good in fact...

"We need to ask and answer two questions first, What is Evil? It is that which is against god/ It is anything morally bad or wrong.It is Injurious,Depraved, Wicked, Some acceptable examples might be murder,rape,stealing,lying, and Cheating."
...and to know these things are evil, we must know that God dislikes them and sees them as evil.

"second, If we want god to stop evil do we want him to stop all evil or just some of it?"
If WE want God to stop evil? See, this question shows how much some really think they know about God. I say this because we act as if we are right and God is wrong. In our selfish ways, WE want God to stop the evil that WE commit. If we didn't want things in life to be evil, or if we really wanted to stop evil, why don't we just do it ourselves and quit being evil? I would also like to add, if God IS all powerful, all knowing, all good, or whatever, don't you think He is capable of dealing with this in His own way? If He is our Creator, and if this is all going according to His plan, and I'm just stating this as an assumption (although being a Christian, I do believe it is), don't you think that it will work itself out according to His will? Who are we to say that He should deal with humankind and its evilness according to our opinions? How can we think that, when we aren't even powerful or smart enough to take care of the matter ourselves?

See, I think you are right on some points, but on your other points we must know more about God to define terms such as what is "EVIL." And especially what is evil in His sight.

We must define who God is FIRST, and make no assumption on what WE might think is evil. That is, if those of us here believe in God. And for the athiests here, we must show why our God is real, because obviously, they believe that He isn't.

You're right - it was a letter to Timothy written by Paul. My mistake. So the new testament is not the word of God but the old testament is, is that what you are saying? I can almost agree with you. Certainly a letter that Paul writes to Timothy could not be the word of God.

For the rest, you'll just have to go to the library.