If there's a god, why is there evil? - Page 2

we are "god"s hamsters. the good, is referring to the hamsters on the wheel trying to get their daily excercise, minding there own business. the bad, is referring to the hamsters that loosen the screws to that wheel, creating sabatoge, and possibly a torn ligament for the good hamster. dont get me wrong folks, but this is just my childish religious, philisophic view. i dont normally use animals as examples.

Why is there good, and why is there evil?
The one great thing I enjoy about Religion, is that religion needs science as much as science needs religion. You have to remember that religion isn't really anything more then the hypothesis that takes the place of the unexplainable. Science takes the place of all that is explainable, when something new is discovered it goes from the hypothesis of religion into the fact of science.
Why did god creat Evil? Why did god Creat good? There are a million things that could support each side, not one of them being right because there is no way to test it. We can't ask god why.
The question you ask is If there is good, why did god creat evil? But also think, If there is love, why did god creat hate? If there is Courage why did god creat fear? If there is life, then why did god creat death?
My answer to the question, is that it is a balance. Imagine a world wear ever man and women, animal and plant, biome and atom, all lived perfectly. No one ever got hurt, no one ever had their heart broken, no one would ever cry. Now how can one be good, how can one give something that someone else already has. Not only would life be completly boring and meaningless, but there would be no challenge.

I agree with everyone who said that evil exists to maintain a balance. There has to be an equilibrium, or else nothing is absolute. Just remember what one man said.

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."
-Sir Isaac Newton, Three Laws of Motion

Unfortunatley everyone who says that evil exsists to maintain an equalibrium has no concept of God. By definition God is all powerful and doesn't need to create an equalibrium, He can do anything. If we are going to subject God to natural laws then let us redefine God for he is no longer the christian God. He is the infinite. I am not religious, let's clear that up. But lets not talk about God being restricted to the laws of nature simply in an effort to understand something we don't. As for trying to put God into Newton's theories let's think about what you're doing. For God to fit in that law he would not be God.

I'm with Gemini on his last 2 posts. The whole point of my argument is that an all powerful God had no reason to create anything imperfect, because he is bound by nothing. Logic, duality in nature, and anything we can or can't comprehend is under his command.

Things only make sense because God made them that way, and he made us in such a way that we understand the world around us. Therefore he could've made any world he wanted, and if the downside is that such a world would've been boring or undesirable in any way, with the snap of a finger, he could've made that same world the most appealing thing imaginable.

Also, before anyone says it, changing us to perceive a 'boring world' as exciting does cut into our free will, since we don't necessarily see the world for what it is in the first place. If our free will was a constant untouchable thing in this world the effects of alcohol or drugs would not exist. Also, what's boring to one person isn't necessarily boring to another. It all depends what you're use to. As it is, we judge things relative each other, not on an absolute scale. God could change that so everything feels good.

Also, whether or not such a life would have a point was mentioned. I personally feel most lives are meaningless anyway, but even if not, needing things from other people is not the root of living meaningful lives.

Also, God could've created a world where you don't have everything, but have access to everything through your neighbours, if such a world makes you happier.

Think, a belief in God negates free will and freedom of choice to a great extent. God is defined as exsisting beyond time therefore he knows everychoice you will make before you make it, you can't even change your mind without him knowing the outcome. Is that Freewill? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't

I'm not sure I understand the notion of free-will well enough to comment. I can't think of anything that doesn't fall under one of these 2 categories (or a combination of both):

1. A completely predictable event given enough information about the preceeding state. Just as knowing the present state of matter in (classical) physics allows you to know all future states, given sufficient knowledge about human psychology, you should be able to predict all the decisions they're about to make, even if they themselves don't know what they'll do yet. Also looking at people as nothing more than a complex system of atoms suggests that a physicist with information about all your individual atoms could predict their evolution without considering that you're alive or conscious, or whether or not you have 'free will'.

2. A completely unpredictable/random event which could not have been predicted because it is not the effect of any preceeding cause. It just happened randomly. It may be that such events exist, and if so, they prevent knowledge of the future to the extent that they're relevant.

However, neither 1 or 2 lends itself to any kind of free will. If something is predictable, then it only thinks it has a choice -- the outcome was decided before the 'decision' was made. If something is random, it is neither predictable nor does it 'choose' anything. Also, if desire could be measured, it would be seen as a cause of the effect. Maybe I'm wrong.

People.. if you think about your argument then basically you are saying that science doesn't exist and that god controlls everything. If we follow your logic, then why ask why is there good and evil, lets ask why god made science. Why did god make a law about gravity, about respiration, why did he make us have to breath, if he is powerful then why did he do it? How come we evolved? Why do we need energy? He had the power to make us super human, super perfect. So why didn't he?

And just because god knows what we are doing doesn't mean we have no free will. So god knows that someone will take the shot for the basket instead of pass. It isn't like he is going to intervean. Just because god knows something doesn't mean god will do something about it. When has there ever been a divine intervention?

God made us for some reason. There is a reason that he made us not perfect. We all know god can make someone perfect, and maybe out there in the far far far corner of space there are people that are perfect. Yet, god put us here, and the fact that I can debate my opinion and you can debate yours shows that we do have free will. God made good and evil for the same reason that god made life, but we can't ever say that we know what is right and what is wrong.

__________________________________________________The whole point of my argument is that an all powerful God had no reason to create anything imperfect, because he is bound by nothing.
~*~think4yourself~*~
__________________________________________________

We aren't arguing why god created inperfect like, we are arguing why god created good and evil. I support the fact that there is no real reason why god created imperfect people. But, think about it. Imagine if you were god. Are you telling me over the span of the creation of the universe to like billions and billions of years ago you wouldn't think hey, I have an idea for a creation, instead of making a place of perfectness where no one is bound by any law or any force(which I don't doubt{if god were real} that there is a place like that) I will creat a place where there are laws that simple life has to follow, and there will be an equilibrium of ideas so that the planet could survive. Are you telling me you wouldn't do that after you have spent over a (insert whatever you think is the highest number) and (same number) years on the plane of existance. To think that god didn't have a reason for us is foolish. Remember, he is all knowing, we aren't, he knows more then any of us and has the mentality to think of a plan like this.

Sticky Convo. people, but I will say that I totaly 100 percent believe in God and to Walk by Faith and not by Sight!! I dont know that I agree with the balance but, more of the fact that the devil exists and his greatest achievement was making people believe he didnt exist.
God is Love!!!!

God doesn't need to proove himself.
God doesn't need man.

If man cannot find the wisdom in the ying and yang, it is their loss.
No amount of proof will be enough. If the vast universe doesn't depict God, then nothing else will. The universe in it's infiniteness, without beginning and without end is not sufficient to proove it is possible, what more can anyone tell another.

God has no beginning and no end, much the same as the universe. It's an awesome thought how small we are in comparison. God is the same. We are minute and unneeded
creatures for His great plans.
If one shall not trust and believe, then that one is cut off from eternity.
God makes no excuses.

Does He need to proove Himself?? Not actually, and it is written you shall not test Him either.

Want proof? Honest proof. Look for the history of the city where Lot lived. It is real histroy, matter of fact, anything in the bible can be prooven. Including the ark. Its petrified on the highest mountain....and pictures are available.

BUT, still, I have been so many debates about this, I know one thing, it's impossible to open a closed mind.

Nice to meet.

God is composed of all good. The universe in existence as He always was, has a bad with the good. He created Satan, his most beautiful angel. BUT, for pride, that angel betrayed God.

That angel fallen, has set out to destroy what God loves, and that is man. To destroy man, he must push pride into man, as he has. Misery loves company.
Man of today, more than ever, disclaims God and all He has given. The evil in the universe is controlled by satan, and the query and disbelief in God is some of his greatest accomplishemnts...if indeed, you can consider that great.

To hurt God, he must turn God's beloved creatures against Him.

Therefore, if man doesnt trust in God, or have faith He exists, without proof more than necessary, then satan has another notch in his belt...for souls that is.

God is Good, and cannot do bad, but for complete wisdom or understanding one must first trust, and reasoning and knowledge shall follow.

Here is a hint, the gifts of Wisdom, Understanding, knowledge...they al come from God's Spirit. If you believe without question, all doors shall be opened . Take that advice, and you will find.

HELLO Decius. Nice to meet.

Decius, you have expressed a point that I myself have been at pains to express for years. My frustration with most religious fanatics is there unwillingness to argue in a logical way. They refuse to acknowledge any argument that infers God's non-exsistance. It appears to me that man has clearly invented Religion and this lack of acknowledgement is proof. Through Patrishes argument we conclude to question God is the work of the Devil. Any inquary is almost a sin because Satan is behind it, without satan men would always blindly walk lead by God. It is clear to me that this is the advent of those who invented religion because when one of logical thought begins to question religion we see it as imperfect because it is a complete system (Godel) The advent of the devil is only to provide a deterant against questioning.

Having said this let us not dicount religion because of a few flaws, although not religious myself I have learned many things about being a desent person from the teaching of religious people. To end my reply I will say why Evil exists: God is not what Most religions say he is, he is not all powerful, he does not exist out side of time, or logic, he did not create the world in seven days, he is a mix of science and religion; there was a big bang and there is evolution, yet I have a feeling that there was something greater behind it, something inexplicable. Evil exists because people are people, because no one is all good, because life is dificcult, and people try to cope with the hand that has been dealt to them, because one cannot be considerate of everyone all the time, because sometimes one has to be selfish. There is evil because life is a jungle and we are all just trying to find our own way out, and sometimes with fear and trepidation, with an altruistic attitude, we won't ever get out.

If it means anything to anyone Voltaire once said: "If God didn't exists it would be neccesary to invent him".

I am a gemini, incidently.

Look folks. This could be a book if I went into great detail. AND the final conclusion would still be the same.
The problem Decius, with logic, is it is illogical. Did you ever notice with analysis, in thinking, you could actualy go into a big circle, and not come out with any real conclusion.
Man's mind is finite in it's knowledge. The vast knowledge and wisdom, again is a gift. TO trust and believe is when you will recieve them. Not before. It is futile to debate what someone who has not the same openness to these gifts, because it wil never make complete sense. As per your queries.

Don't get me wrong, questioning about God is very different than questioning God.

Gemini, you believe in the theory <~~ note that word, theroy, of evolution. I will give you this much, there is absolutely evolution, in that man still does evolve from its prior beginnings. No lie. For instance we could not survive in the damp cold castles of eons ago. Our bodies have evolved to comfort, for the most pasrts.

But to believe an eruption without a force is a fairytale at best. God did not create the earth in OUR TIME, of seven days. BUT in His time, which could be 100 years our time, for one day His time. Do not take the bible in human terms, and you'll do alright. As we all know, it took many years for the grand canyon to exist. That's how God created.

Man is too advanced a being, with both thought, emotions and compassion to be an amoeba. In fact, that's where the theory has root, that we were amoaba like creatures. Not so much. IF we were, then amoaba's would not exist.

Thanks Decius. That was very sweet of you to say, BTW.

In truth, God is all god. His creatures are comprised of the bad in the universe, which is to say, due to our fall from Grace. Grace is what held man in paradise. The innocence. Before the fruit befell them the knowledge of good and bad.

Lok at Genesis, when God said, He breathed life into man. HE breathed His spirit into man. His spirit is what gives us existence. That is our life force. Due to the nature of man and his desire to be like God, we are where we are now. NOT God's fault.

Look at it this way, might be less confusing. Which being that ever existed, took someone else's word for when they claim they love you? Isn;t proof in the pudding?

God should have just destroyed Adam and Eve, and been done with it, if it were not for His love, and His compassion. Not to mention His lonliness.

God speed.

so are you saying evil people or "innocence abusers" make life worth living, decius?

i think that if god were really omniscient and benevolent, he would not have given man the power to think for himself because he would have seen that man would abuse that by creating evil. that is...unless he were evil himself.

and the thing about the afterlife. when a good person dies, they say, "oh, god wanted [fill in name here] to be with Him." would god be so insensitive as to not respect the wishes of the deceased and their familiies and friends? would he be so selfish as to forcefully pry them from their comfortable lives and take their life from them just because He wanted them to be around Him?

like my father always said, if there is a god, it's a bad one.

i understand what you mean. one may liken it to a comic book story; there's no need for a superhero is there is no supervillain. but i don't--and i assume most people don't either--see myself as a savior or as a martyr. i do what i can to right wrongs when i can, but i don't consider that my purpose in life; my purpose or job in life, whatever it may be, is not to punish wrongdoers, nor is it to protect innocents. therefore, i don't think bad people need to exist. i don't believe that anyone can be truly completely evil or good. i don't think evil is necessary to life. mistakes happen and that's enough to balance things. according to christian creed (or at least to my understanding of it) , heaven's a place where no sins are done and a place to which only good-hearted people are admitted. i think that, if you believe such a place can exist, then you can believe that bad people aren't necessary.

to answer your question, i don't believe "man" (and i am loathe to use this term) is either inherently good or evil. i think we're all born blank slates and whatever we experience in life makes us act the way we do. free-thought, i believe, is not necessarily that which causes a person to be "evil" or "good." i think our actions are what defines us as a person. for instance, you may want to kick mother teresa's ass or burn down your local school, but if you do none of those things, can you rightfully be considered a bad person?

freedom of thought is a neutral thing. it's like being given the option to shoot a priest or a murderer. just because you're GIVEN the option doesn't make you bad or good.