I am of society and not society per say.

Society raised me from birth with the help of my mother and father. Society is the people in the world. They taught me (their beliefs) until I was old enough to question them. I now believe what I believe as truth to me from what society taught me when I was ignorant.

The world still lies steals cheats and goes to war, nothing has changed. Mankind has not advanced one iota from day one. We went from rocks and sticks as weapons to nuclear warfare. That's progress? When will it ever end? War and peace cannot exist in the same spot. Thoughts please? PLJ

Our knowledge has grown faster than we have. For those that would say we have emotionally evolved, I would point out that the Holocaust was but one generation ago. But it is a dichotomy. The species that brought you Mother Teresa also brought you snuff films. To make matters worse, anyone watching the news will soon realize that as smart and rational as we be might be as individuals, we act stupid and irrational as a group.

There is a simple answer to this, a simple reason as to why humanity acts this way.

Both of you are more than double my age, so you may be tempted to dismiss what I have to offer to this discussion under the assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about. I ask that you keep an open mind and think about this rationally, something none of us do often enough.

The reason why humans have, from the beginning of recorded history all the way through to modern times, acted like savages toward one another with very few exceptions, is because we were raised to be this way. Ever since mankind went from hunter-gatherers to living in cities, we have been born into a world that demands we act this way in order to survive, or sometimes to simply arbitrarily acquire as much of anything (such as money) as possible. Before humans became "civilized" we were, ironically, much more civil to each other. Humans lived mostly with the same group of people (their extended family) their entire lives. Property, as we know it today, did not exist. When you think about it, private property is more about restricting access to goods for others than it is about securing access to goods for yourself.

Now, you could argue that, for the most part, and especially on any large scale, it is the only reasonable way for society to function. You could argue that there isn't enough to go around and that a portion of the population will always be poor. You would be right, at least for the majority of the history of human civilization. However, we now live in a very different world than we did for most of our history. We now live in a world where literally every human on the planet can easily be provided a tremendously good standard of living, not just the basics for survival such as food and shelter.

Every year, production in every form goes up, while employment goes down. Every year it becomes cheaper to produce higher quality goods, yet fewer and fewer people can afford to buy these goods. It's called technological unemployment. It seems that the more our technology advances, the worse our standard of living gets. These days, most people are employed in the service industry, since most of the other jobs have been taken over by machines. Even these service industry jobs, however, are starting to disappear. Clearly, our socioeconomic system cannot handle this kind of technological progress.

So, what's the solution? Do we stop advancing in the field of technology? Do we go back to producing goods in a more manual labor orientated way, just to keep people employed?

No. We change the system.

I advise you to watch this documentary in its entirety. It explains the point I'm trying to make far better than I can. I would also suggest that if you're going to watch some of it now and the rest of it another day, to simply wait until you have enough time to watch the whole thing at once.

Nonames,
Excellent movie, Will get back to you. plj

I checked out the Zeitgeist Movement. I admit that some of this is very on-point; but I also feel that there are false assumptions and construed facts.

I can say that we all agree that there is something that is not working, and many suffer.

I can also say that if i knew of a solution, I would not just be typing on a thread. Rough questions. Difficult solutions. Many more wise than I have faltered at this wide one.

Still, I think that this solution will never be accepted or implemented. Right or wrong, just not happening.

Got me thinking though.

Nonames,
I will say it's odd that there's a lot of people wanting a one world government and it seems to be working toward that which is biblical as well. pljames

Zeitgeist is a perfect example of not seeing the big picture

the movement espouses non-participation in government, this is non participation in society which is not being a part of society and letting the Marxist oligarchy of elitists and corporate power run the world unopposed which doesn't create anarcho kalvanism but a nanny state to support a utopis for the elite not unlike ayn rands in atlas shrugged

By not participating in society or government you start having massive problems, the thing zeitgeist misses on is that corperations want a strong government only working for them, if you do nothing and allow the idiots of the world to vote then you can't fix any issues

the zeigiest movement in this way reminds me of the manhatten project, building up technology without thinking about how it effects the world

Everything we do has a ripple effect on society, absolutely everything we are society and society is us, there is no definition of sanity therefore we must all be insane because either we love conflict and that the purpose in life is to suffer and be made better by the abrasion or we are all eternally stupid and unable to see anything beyond the scope of our own little worlds, I paraphrased from Chuck Palahniuk's Erosion poem in Haunted
but he makes a huge point about how people look at the world.

Vote for the least harmful politician that can actually win, Sign petitions for bills you believe in change peoples minds while working towards your ideal future

Ignoring government or society doesn't mean it doesn't exist,

I like zeitgeist it has a lot of good stuff but don't treat it like a tea partier treats rush Limbaugh, people in the movement that I have met are sometimes wildly intelligent but not accessible to people who don't have their views,

I would like to hear your thoughts

i am not sure this is on topic with the thread, but my own take on what i have heard and seen in this documentary is that oil, greedy corporations and the all the worlds banks have screwed every society on earth out of there life in pusuit of some utopian (is that the right word) ideal of a monetary society ran on the premise that people are happier if they are productively employed to produce and consume at a regular rate? our resources are running out and we cannot sustain our growth as a world community without a greater number of us losing our lives to the financial backers whose currency is our food and water. and before long will shall be paying for it with our lives? its an old cliche, but what about any children my generation may be lucky enough to have - what can we do for them?

i have to ask, what ideals have you upheld in life pljames? for good or ill, no matter what result they eventually brought your way? i do mean to ask you this critical question because you seem a gentleman who, in your late age has experienced all life has to offer, and could provoke a debate about the merits and abominations of society from an individuals perspective?

being 33 at this present moment, i think my small town is not a bad place, the economy's solvent, the people are happy to live their lives according to their liberties, rather than their rights? (as we seem to have lost them circa 1998?). we have an oil refinery, many banks, a huge car and commercial industry, shopping centres, resturaunts the lot! but when people are unhappy here in this small town in england, the cite the same faults in our society each time. these are : -

1. huge inequality,
2. family breakdown,
3. unwanted and unplanned pregnancy
4. isolation, loneliness and abuse,
5. terrorist threats,
6. immigration!
7. unpopular and deceitful governments.

- though maybe not in that order.

any comments are appreciated!

dead city, your post is a good topic for a new thread, that said.

I think huge inequality is due to class warfare of the elites vs. everyone else which includes corporations that have a responsibility to share holders but no responsibility to real living people in society, if your not already rich enough to invest then you are left behind

I think we can solve this inequality gap by returning to Keynsian economics I have made an entire thread on this topic for my full answer
http://www.captaincynic.com/thread/96657/1/what-economic-governmental-sy
tem-works-best-and-how.htm#96820


2. I think family breakdown is people getting married too young before they know who they are then later on when they are in their 30's or earlier realize they aren't right for each other
and people having kids before they are financially stable enough to do so as well as attitudes towards planned parenthood and abortion contribute to this

3 see up teaching abstinence religion is a big problem in this

4. Violence in society as well as the capitalist pack mentality that people seem to have, americans are bully assholes a lot of the time but the cause of my anti social tendencies was being bullied a lot as a shy kid

I think we can solve bullying by teaching emotional intelligence in schools just like we teach gym, I think physical fitness is just as important as mental fitness if kids learn how to process emotion then I think we will have a much better society.


5. stop fighting wars of occupation that destabilize governments and support just rebellions in places like Syria Egypt and Libya even though Egypt is back to their old tricks at least the situation is slightly improving, I see no benefits to the afghan war I think it's just creating a new generation of muslims that hate the U.S. This is exacerbated when Isreal then builds settlements obviously on gaza strip lines and then isreal invaded and murdered civilians.
obamas double strike drone policy that kills more civilians than terrorists also pisses people off.

6. immigration, its a little annoying that you put an exclaimation point on immigration.
We have a problem with unemployment here in America because people hire illegal immigrants under the table for half and sometimes less.
I don't think we should be going after the immigrants we need to be going after the people who are giving them jobs in the first place if they haven't got at least a green card those people should lose their business.

They are the reason why immigration is a massive problem, immigrants hear that people are hiring and you don't have to pay taxes and no one really does anything about it, not only that but you don't have to worry about drug cartels and you can make 4times as much money as you can in your old country

No matter how strong you make your borders they will always try to get in.

We can solve this by cracking down on illegal hiring processes as well as a path to citizenship that doesn't require a history test that the average person of your country can't even pass. I have givin our history exam that we have in the states to many native citizens and most of them fail it with flying colors.

We can't stop them from coming but I think we can decrease the incentive to do so and those that do have the balls to still come, they can then be taxed


7. We need to create a social democracy, we have economic anarchy right now, GE paid nothing in taxes last year this is not right, corporations and the rich do whatever they can to avoid taxes.

Individual rich put their money in swiss bank accounts and caymen island accounts that launder money away from the government as well as providing a safe haven for mob money around the world no questions asked.

Corporate loop holes as well as Americas new laws that treat corporations as people. All massive problems.

we can solve this by, instead of electing officials that the government not working proves their point, electing officials that understand the importance of both protecting our economy but at the same time upholding the tax laws that the public is being defrauded of

and in the case of the big banks, wallstreet and the automobile industry outright theft but that isn't completely the fault of government because without the bailouts their would be absolute economic collapse

government is just an entity that is of the people, people with more power influence it more, the wealthy holds most of that power


One more question to you, do you think that everyone has the same oppurtinity in life?





I would like you to answer your own questions as well as I am interested in your own answers

well, in britain when we were kids growing up there was a culture of our parents giving us children the opportunities they missed out on because of poor parenting and the memories of their respective childhoods'. which i can tell you, the majority of our parents (who are both now in their late 50's) had terrible childhood's because of their despotic parents attitudes to them and their roles in society. i believe my parents have no faith or gratitude for their upbringing, they were dragged up, beaten, abused, humiliated, ridiculed and starved of love, affection and opportunity. which brings me to answer your question. for my generation (born 1976 onwards) all studied the same curriculum at school as that was government policy and those that actually had some ambition were selected to go further than high school, rather than take a job at 16. luckily, i was one of them - but do not take that as a suggestion i am any more successful than those who have been in the workforce since the moment they became eligible to vote.

i have spent time at a distance learning college and i have had many proud achievements to my name, that many people who have not benefited from a university education have not. but still, i am financially no better off, i am unemployed, i am drawing welfare due to a sickness that has been ongoing since i was 20, and yes, i am still proud of my achievements - but to measure my success by what marque of vehicle i drive, the location of my apartment, or the company i keep - you would be surprised to even believe for one moment that i had graduated or even managed to secure any gainful employment.

and so you ask about equality of opportunity? well, if you're intelligent, capable, responsible, hardworking, sociable and trustworthy - you may well have what it takes to have all the opportunity you could ever wish for. BUT, and this is a big problem that every government that came after tony blair has forgotten to take care of is; who will invest in a child's life so that child may have equality of opportunity rather than fall into the trap of working to pay off debts incurred to prove to themselves more than anything, that their life here on earth is both comfortable and satisfactory? our economy is run on debt and it would seem where the poor have credit and payday loans, and those who have a modest income and yet hope to do better in future have mortgages. the rich and super rich take their places in parliament or government committees and run the institutions of state, the mint, the corporation of london, the port of liverpool etc etc. but i digress. i have enjoyed all my opportunities to do better than before in life and i imagine there are those who wish they may have had some of my opportunities in life, but on comparison i am still financially dependant on the state. the majority of people are much better off than me, certainly much more independant.

i hope this answers your question.

Social interaction is good, if we all work together for the benefit of all. But our human nature always has the last word. There is safety in numbers, but for those who have fear of there own safety.

Power and greed will overcome even a decent person. Our change has to come from within and caring or agape love not material love. Paul

// ... private property is more about restricting access to goods for others than it is about securing access to goods for yourself. //

nonames, as an explanation on why the world is the way it is these days, I believe you hit the nail right on the head with your above statement.

Somewhere along the line, society has determined that the 'one with the most toys wins.' and it appears that mankind is on some kind of headlong rush into accumulating as much earthly wealth as they can appropriate and protect from the greed of other people, and judging by all the wars and the acts of individual brutality we read and hear about every day, a great many people are not amiss to accumulating their wealth at the expense of other people's lives or well-being.

In fact, for some, the mere accumulation of material goods is no longer sufficient currency on which to build the self-perception of some individuals. There are also a great many people in our society that do not seem to 'feel good' about themselves unless they are bullying, degrading, raping, torturing or otherwise making other people feel brutalized and isolated.

The fact that such selfishness and violence seems only to be growing in intensity as the years pass indicates to me that humankind is on the brink of self-destruction.

It is apparent SOMETHING must be done in order to reverse this way of thinking - but the question is what CAN be done as long as each person believes within his own heart that he alone is right, and everyone else is immaterial if they do not come alongside to their way of thinking?

It is going to take something OUTSIDE of what already appears inside of each and every heart and mind that exists on this planet, something that transcends all of the selfish and greedy notions we already have, and upon which we ALL must agree to abide by if there is to be any hope that mankind can be pulled from the brink of annihilation.

I dare to propose that such a solution already exists, and that there are some humans already on board with this outside influence for the betterment of mankind. It is called 'righteousness' - and such a concept is founded on the virtues of justice, mercy and humility, and it is fueled by the power of love.

If any of our actions are based on any other attribute than that of righteousness, then it is based on righteousness' opposite, namely, that of selfishness, and it is selfishness that brings death and destruction to our world. Since it is apparent that as individuals, none of us are even close to being an epitome of what it means to be totally righteous, and thus being an example for all of the rest of the world to emulate, our salvation as a race depends on emulating the ONLY One that has ever been able to totally exemplify the concept of righteousness, namely Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, and the Son of God.

The laws of God are established so that humans will know what sin (selfishness) really looks like, and it is only by the outpouring of God's Spirit on our lives that enables us to break the chains of sin's influence. The death and resurrection of Jesus fulfilled all the requirements of God's laws, and it is only by having faith in Jesus that His Spirit is poured upon us.

Oh, sure, some folks may try to let on that they are able to achieve righteousness by the virtue of their own understanding, and will try to belittle those that trust in God to save them, but all it takes is to compare their words and deeds to that which God has established for their rebellious works to be exposed for the selfish motives they really are.

Ngnightgfell,
Excellent post well said. Paul

thank you, Paul...8-)

There is no simple answer to your first post.
It is the answer to all other questions but it has no answer of its own.
Except maybe 42.