Inescapable Human Emotion - Page 2

You litterally told me that you may not understand me BECAUSE of my intelectualization, then got mad at me for changing my tactics at expressing myself, in order to be more understood.

You are insane

You're right. I am insane. Now let's talk about you. How do you feel what I said initially does NOT apply to YOUR case? I will try to clarify so you can understand me. See how that can go both ways? Seriously, I'll stop the fascade. Will you?

You have yet to listen to me.

You missed my point in my example.

This is not about my relationship with my father this is about the the subconcious and a fun idea I had about that I thought might be fun to explore on an online forum. Just because I didnt accept you as my online daddy you got your feelings hurt, I am NOT talking to you any more.

Alright, dude, have it your way.

Awakend,

I feel part of what you are trying to express here is concept that does not actually exist. The Freudian idea of levels of development, or any version of it, are groupings people have developed in order to explain common happening (in their eyes at least). I have never stumbled across anything that states we are biologically predispositioned to care for anything but what we are taught to (I study neuroscience). So, to say they are innate, I would disagree.

All that said, if you have been taught to or more importantly perceived that having a father role in your life granting you a right of massage (I do not want to say into manhood because I don't believe that is what you are trying to convey) is important, you will interpret all actions contrary to this as an insufficiency in yourself (because you have told yourself they are). Once convinced of this whether aware of it or not, I would imagine it would be difficult to see things differently.

Speaking from experiences of a similar nature to this I have found I am never aware of the emotion until I realize that as insufficient as I am towards the emotion, I do not need it. This is where the tricky part is and what I believe you asking, how to see it differently and not feel that way. The answer to that question, is individual, I run towards the embarrassment, I try to set something up to where I can feel how silly it is, to shatter the fear, however I do not know if this works for everyone.

That deficiency, whether one feels it to be very real or finds it to be decidedly delusive (either way, it's weak), must be replaced with something strong (a view rooted in objectivity).

A simple removal is impossible, for something like this lies at the foundation of the mind. A complete dismantle/rebuild is the only option, taking into account the way everything's come to be as it's being done.

However, I'm not suggesting you were saying that, Zach. I'm just expanding on your last sentence, as I feel that simply shattering such perceptions would prove impossible.

Zach, So you're saying that in your study of neroscience that humans are not biologically disposed to emotions?

Did you know that if a baby is not loved or given attention that in a few, im sure rare, cases that they die from an absolutely unknown cause? As if it simply gave up living because itwasnt loved.

Thats a big stretch, but lets look at maternal care for a baby. Mothers have such a strong attachment to their children that even if their child isn't born and it dies from a still birth that the woman feels like she has lost a part of herself. Now, I get how its the woman's choiceto put that love in the baby to begin with, but where does thestrong desire come from to begin with?

What about animals? The concept of the alpha male lion? They have an innate desire to attack the other males so that the females of the tride will want their cock, and the females do want their cock when they win in combat against another lion.

Or insects. The Female praying mantis eating its mate after sex. That must be a biological disposition.

Or what about survival instincts? Or sexuality?

All these things come to mind when questioning whether biological disposition occurs, but the idea that all things are taught does make sense with what I personally expereince.

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So you're saying that in your study of neroscience that humans are not biologically disposed to emotions?

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This is completely different from what you originally asked.

The situation you originally posted dealt with a programed (or taught) emotion.

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as a human, and as a member of the male gender, I have an innate desire in me to gain the respect of my father

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and (the purpose of the first part of my original post was to address your assumption that this emotion was innate)

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how many other things are there in our minds that we can not escape from because they are programmed requirements for emotional satisfaction?

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Humans develop (that is their genes program the brain) to feel certain emotions however, these are innate and can be recognized by a baby as well as expressed (if you would like a list of these just think of anything that can be expressed with your face). Secondary or societal emotions are emotions that we are trained to observe (can you express a lack of a father figure with a face or do you just look sad). The important distinction here is that one we can perceive on our own (initially), the other we must be taught to perceive and than perceive it ourselves. The commitment to secondary emotion happens at a young age so it is often difficult to distinguish if one has never observed the difference. What you expressed originally is not innate and unlike innate emotions it can be deprogrammed.

An easy example to illustrate this is guilt, a non-innate emotion that we are taught. Guilt is coupled with the action that violates the expected norms of behavior. For example, the first time you remember lying to your mother, you probably felt guilty. The reason for this emotion is because she and others had trained you not to lie to them. As we get older however, one does not feel the same guilt lying to their mother about something worse than the original time we remember feeling guilt. We learn to deprogram this emotion because it does not apply to all situations. The same is true for your original post, just because you feel it does not make it real or normal.

As for the examples you listed. These are happenings that are biologically explainable.

Babies who die for lack of attention (love has nothing to do with this), do so because their brain is under-stimulated and shuts down. This may sound odd but rats do the same things.

Mothers care for their children because when a baby leaves the womb a mother releases excess serotonin which allows her to become infatuated with the newborn (similar to how you think you love someone when first meeting them) and thus develop a bond (just as other relationships move past this stage).

The lions observe courtships behaviors too (are tribal people attracted to the same things you and I are).

Insect behavior is biologically programed, however it differs from what you express in that the male also gives himself up willingly. Sacrifice is not uncommon with insects as a great deal of insects are programed to die after reproduction (this is an interesting approach to getting the leg up on natural selection by the way if you are ever interested). If this was the case in your post, than this would have never happened because your father would loved you upon conception. Sadly, this is not the case and as a result run away and dead beat fathers are more common than uncommon.

Survival instincts are based on over superstition of the unknown or fear. They make religion possible and while natural are no longer needed.

Sexuality is based in development of certain areas of the brain and can be found on google.

I can understand why you might make the conviction that all emotions felt are natural however, it is simply not the case. Humans are programmed to observe and apply. We have natural functions and emotions, however a lot of what we does is not innate
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Secondary emotiona versus primary emotion. Very interesting.

So, if I have been taught to need a strong male not myself (i.e. my father) then I can teach myself that i don't need it.

Here's some interesting background phycology in my mind.

I used to have dreams all the time where I would be in a situation to protect myself and I'd just freeze up and not be able to move. Still have dreams about fighting my father. I am the younger brother and my older brother has always been pretty protective of me. Not allowing me to fight my own fights. Having to force him to let me. I was abandoned at an age that I was unequipped to help myself. I missed out on a lot of healthy parts of childhood where I was supposed to gain independence. Never went to camp. Didn't go to dances in school. On the other hand, I did have unhealthy exposures to independence. Stealing for fun to sell what I stole for money. (not like cars or anything, just stuff from K-Mart) this is all around 12 years old. Having no guidance and roaming my town looking ofr trouble because I was bored. And finding it. These habits ,moved with me. Eventually I thought it wasn't a big deal to steal a golf cart from an old folks home to drive back home. (I lived in the country) Got in trouble with this one and didn't have any one to turn to. My buddy took the fall for me because he could. He couldn't get out of it, so why both of us go down?

My point is, all these things have taught me that I am uncappable of protective myself. But they were all taught to me as a child. That makes this a secondary emotiona that I can un-teach.

Thanks Zach. Appreciate the insight.

I've been thinking about this.

If the problem were secondary, then simply by being aware of my surroundings, ackownledging that I am capable of protective myself, have protected myself, and continue to protect me, my woman, and our life styles, would be enough to get rid of the feelings of needing an older adult male figure in my life. And in some ways, it has. When I first started my adulthood I did NOT feel like I could take care of myself and that caused a lot of problems in me. But those problems have subsided. I have absolved them.

What is a more accurate description of what happens to me is, I feel unloved in some very primal way. Like there is a basic emotional void where parental love should be. This void could be composed of a bunch of secondary learnings, but I feel that those would come out as insecurity. Secondary emotion seems to be situational, therefor feel inadeqaute in my situation would cause a sensation of insecurity around older men. This most certainly used to be the case, but after a lot of learning and "un-teaching" those feelings just aren't there. I feel GOOD when I feel like an older man is respecting me. I don't feel the urge to fight them or prove them wrong. Which leads me to believe its primary. Because I am not having a negative reaction to the stimulation. I am having a very positive reaction. Which is why when it is gone there feels like something is missing. Because if I had my fathers love, then that sensation would always be there. If the problem in primary, if the need for parental love is primary, then what?

I'd also like to make it clear here, I am not unhappy in my life or with my emotional standing. I am merely exploring an OPTIMAL emotional state. Ofcourse I want the best for myself, but understand under the circumstances of my life, that may not be possible. Which is what this thread is about. Can optimal emotions be had under not optimal circumstance.

I'm a firm believer that they can. I feel I am living proof (not to say that you can look to my life as proof. It's all subjective from the outside. We all have our own personal truths).

I've come to realize that I've learned through my own efforts/father figures of yesteryear all I needed to know about how to take in love/be a man. I've come to realize, again that when it comes to neglect, it's nothing personal. It never is. All actions serve the self. All of them.

But there IS something that this discussion has defined for me. I'm always aware of it, but I've never tried to do anything about it. I have this sense of apathy for a lot of things. I have very selective attention. Frankly, my only interests lie in fundamental philosophies, rudimentary biology, psychology, exercise, and fun.

I have difficulty in learning the mundane, the things necessary for basic survival. I can't hold attention to things like that. My boss must have told me one million times about how to clean out the paint sprayer machine (I paint during the day on campus). I still haven't a clue how. I don't listen. I'd like to be a retainer of knowledge, mundane and all. Never fully can, though. I AM making progress, though.

I think it's to do with the fact that for a long time during my "developmental" years, I tuned out learning from my parents because I was unhappy with both of them. Also, I was extremely hyperactive/unfocused. I was too young to KNOW I was unhappy/unfocused, but I think I did FEEL this. My mother worked....often. I saw my father every other weekend. And he would try to teach me small things. Fishing, bicycle repair, shit like that. I never retained a thing, though. I think I wouldn't allow myself to because I realized that they were, at the time, unnecessary lessons. And I was always too busy wondering why I didn't have parents. Wondering why no one at school "clicked" with me. I guess, you could say, I learned to NOT learn a lot of things. In my adult life, I've been aware of that, and I have taken small steps in correcting this. I've undertaken fishing, politcal studies, engine repair, martial arts, etc. I've been fighting against the NOT-learning part of myself for a good 7 years now. I'm getting stronger each day

Anyhow, let me look at what you both typed once more. I have this bad habit of always talking me haha. Let's see here....

Ah yeah, the notion of primary and secondary emotion is a great one. I like that method of organizing. Very clean and useful. I do agree, AW, that your feeling is one of a secondary, or learned, nature. It also seems you have made some serious progress in replacing this belief with a new one.

I don't know if you're into the concepts of therapy, but look up the "ABC model" according to Albert Ellis (REBT modality man). The whole thing about the "foundations" I mentioned is in line with that, and I feel it's very relevant to what we're discussing here Good stuff, guys.

I am a believe in therapy and intend to make it my profession, as of last week anyway. I feel like I have a gift for it.

What makes you feel like my emotional condition is learned, rather than innate?

It is a circumstantial truth that my emotions are not operating with the acknowledgment that I have a father. Have I learned to change my emotional state because of this? Or does it change on it own, simply through the power of observation?