Is there anything you shouldn't educate children?

This topic was spurred from fearless5555's response that I posted below.

"Teach everyone, everything, at all ages. Yes this means sex ed to children, and common sense to the disadvantaged. Once we get over the pasts' backward fears of sex and education and what's appropriate, we can move on. These are the hypcritical fears that are an anchor that needs to be removed and society can then move forward. The more you impede and "protect" the more you stick your head in the sand, and those actions are what's stopping the enlightenment and the progress of evolution of the mind. Stop pretending your offended and stop seeking unearned compensation for you weak constitution of a being. Grow up already."

I've always wondered that myself... Is there really any kind of information that a child isn't already ready for? This is actually a very large concern for me because I have a little brother and sister and my Dad and Step Mom disagree with me completely on this subject.

Why is it that we create these fantasy lands for kids only to have them realize one day that it was all a sham? I mean Santa Clause is one thing... but it's become normal to con children into believing many kinds of fantasies. And to make all this even more bizarre, it's usually a stranger who educates us on these things as we get older. Is it really inappropriate to answer (as you would an adult) a child's question about sex, whatever that question may be? (and not going into anymore detail than the child requests) And what about religion?

I know how I was raised to believe there was a god watching me but I think I would have taken it just as well if my parents had been honest with me and told me they didn't know for sure and that it was a BELIEF of theirs.

My Dad and Step Mom recently had a huge argument about this very issue. I exposed my little brother and sister to the idea of karma because they asked me about god or religion (I can't remember exactly.) I have since been ostracized from their house... disowned in a sense. That's how strongly this issue is to them. They accused me of poisoning the kid's minds...

What are your thoughts?

Innocents is vital is the development of a child, when you ruin and expose it to early then it can take away from that child's growth. But on the same key i don't think telling your brothers and sisters about karma ruined any of there innocents just your parents ability to feel above you in their (you brothers and sisters) life's.

But sex ed should be held off till the children are in 4th 5th grade anyway. When a child's body changes thats when they should know.

There is a point to which it should be held because usually children that hold their innocents longer tend to view the world in a more positive way then those of us who didn't. Which i'm sure makes the world a little easier to handle.

Zach, I believe you make referrence to usually extremely negative exposure, there is a difference between a kid asking questions, say after walking in on mom and dad, and being raped or beaten or given a biased lecture by a strict religious family.

We as a society don't know what would happen to kids taught in a possitive manner about sex or violence in life, because they are taboos, well, at least sex is, violence is everywhere.

I still work at a video game store at the moment and am thoroughly befuddled every time I hear a parent say, I don't care if there is violence, just no sex or nudity.

There are still societies that marry off kids at puberty in arranged fashions.

I honestly don't know the answer to this question, but I know my gut feeling, which is not to fear kids exposure or education to anything.

I think we have such screwed up social ideals about topics bound to be covered in this debate that we would likely learn a great deal from children who were alowed an unbiased view of such things.

But current society is so colored and fearful that even if they recieved a positive and open minded education they would be met with hostility in the general community due to so many prejudices and "traditions".

Which is probably an adequate sign that kids need just such exposure to help weed out such rediculous and negative behavior.

Take Chris's example, little spurns greater anger in me than to see family turn on their own due to religious, superstitious, traditional "beliefs".

If this is what traditional methods cause, then I say its high time for change.

I don't believe innocence is negated by selective information, far from it. Innocence defined tends to mean...

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The state, quality, or virtue of being innocent, as:Freedom from sin, moral wrong, or guilt through lack of knowledge of evil.

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Since most taboo topics are not "evil", especially sex, then knowledge of them is irrelevant.

I think innocence is truly lost when one comprehends malicious intent.

Even then, it is likely an innocent mind that would be able to understand where such intent comes from and relate and forgive.

It is us who lose faith in ourselves and fellow humanity who lose innocence.

I even feel innocence is regained when one's mentality is realigned with the concept of love, love thy neighbor as theyself means loving and forgiving thyself and both counter my proposed loss of innocence.

Honestly I do believe cultures negative attitudes towards topics deemed taboo in general and especially to children is the actual cause and source of the problem of them being considered a problem.

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Honestly I do believe cultures negative attitudes towards topics deemed taboo in general and especially to children is the actual cause and source of the problem of them being considered a problem.

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Ironwood brings up an excellent point I personally believe no information should be withheld from a child. If a child is interested in a topic give them the resources to become educated and make their own decisions. Children that are shelter from a young age and grow up not know about the real world in my experiences have lashed out in a sense to have these experiences. So if we teach children at a young age they will be accustom to these topics and make and make informed choices.

You guys really think that children of such a young age that can't grasp basic concepts should be exposed to what ever they want.

Children look up to people who do things that are "cool" in their minds to teach them that violence and sex are the "cool" things to do. Would corrupt their thought process.

There is a reason as to why for 1000's of years people have hidden such things from their children.

If you don't believe me has anyone here bothered to turn on the Disney channel in the last two years.

If not, so many shows on there, children are blanently disrespectfull to their parents. And now if you watch young teens act the same way with anyone older then them.

I think its in a child's mindset to imitate those who seem best at what it is they are doing, so if violence is always winning the fight what do you think they will resort to.

The with holding of ideals though is another story i agree with you guys there. If they want to learn about something then they should be allowed to.

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You guys really think that children of such a young age that can't grasp basic concepts should be exposed to what ever they want.

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I see more innocent children express greater understanding of basic concepts than most adults.

Children want to be exposed to everything, and at some point they will be, who guides them and how through this development is what is truly key.

And not all exposure is a matter of choice and eventually is inevitable, making your point irrelevant.

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Children look up to people who do things that are "cool" in their minds to teach them that violence and sex are the "cool" things to do. Would corrupt their thought process.

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It is nearly impossible to actually hide these most basic realities from children, they are far less stupid and far more perceptive than most people give them credit.

Their degrees of understanding of these concepts as well as their use of this information as resultant behavior is another issue and comes back to guidance or natural learning through interaction with society and gauging possitive and negative responses to such behaviors.

Your example, ironically, is another inevitable reality that is a very natural part of everyone's thought process.

Corruption of one's thought process seems more likely to be the attempt to control and alter it to "corrupt" ends.

Hence...

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There is a reason as to why for 1000's of years people have hidden such things from their children.

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This is only selectively accurate, but I get your meaning in referrence to our current society and its historical basis.

And you would do well to look into the history of just such actions and their true motivations.

You will primarily find it a religious path.

I can understand your thought that this information "hiding" was a natural occurrance, and in part it was, but its basis was wholey unnatural, by that I mean intentional and manipulated.

Your talking about fundamentalist relgious belief systems based on a manipulated twisting of reality, through lies, myths, and allegories etc.

Systems that are very much meant to corrupt and control people's thought processes.

It is these very systems that have through censorship, fear, and manipulated condemnation of very natural things created the very taboos we speak of.

Twisting and poisoning the minds of generations to hate what is natural and good setting a deliberate path of self destruction.

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children are blanently disrespectfull to their parents.

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This again, is not a problem of exposure to information and reality, part of it is actually quite natural.

Now there are many debates to be had on the behavior of children but what cannot be left out is the behavior of the adults around them, both in respect to their parenting and societies affects on their ability to properly parent.

You are rightly noticing a degradation of society and youth, but again, exposure to information is not at fault.

As a matter of fact, that is probably the solution.

"You guys really think that children of such a young age that can't grasp basic concepts should be exposed to what ever they want."

"If they want to learn about something then they should be allowed to."

Which side are you arguing for?

I was reading the book how people learn; brain, mind, experiences, and school and came aacross some theories that I wanted to share.

Zone of Proximal Development

The zone of proximal development is the distance between the actual developmental level as determined by independent problem solving and the level of potential development as determined through problem solving under adult guidance, or in collaboration with more capable peers (Vygotsky, 1978:86). What children can do with the assistance of others is even more indicative of their mental development than what they can do alone (Vygotsky, 1978:85).

The zone of proximal development embodies a concept of readiness to learn that emphasizes upper levels of competence. These upper boundaries are not immutable, however, but constantly changing with the learner's increasing independent competence. What a child can perform today with assistance she will be able to perform tomorrow independently, thus preparing her for entry into a new and more demanding collaboration. These functions could be called the "buds," rather than the fruits of development. The actual developmental level characterizes mental development retrospectively, while the zone of proximal development characterizes mental development prospectively (Vygotsky, 1978:86-87).

1. Early predisposition to learn about some things but not others No evidence exists that infants come into the world as "blank slates" capable only of registering the ambient events that impinge on their senses in an undisciplined way. Young children show positive biases to learn types of information readily and early in life. These forms of knowledge, referred to as privileged domains, center on broadly defined categories, notably physical and biological concepts, causality, number, and language (Carey and Gelman, 1991).

2. Strategies and metacognition Outside of these privileged domains children, like all learners, must depend on will, ingenuity, and effort to enhance their learning. It was previously thought that young children lacked the strategic competence and knowledge about learning (metacognition) to learn intentionally, but the last 30 years have witnessed a great deal of research that reveals hitherto unrecognized strategic and metacognitive competence in the young (Brown and DeLoache, 1978; DeLoache et al., 1998).

3. Theories of mind As they mature, children develop theories of what it means to learn and understand that profoundly influence how they situate themselves in settings that demand effortful and intentional learning (Bereiter and Scardamalia, 1989). Children entertain various theories of mind and intelligence (Dweck and Legget, 1988). Indeed, not all learners in schools come ready to learn in exactly the same way. Some theorists argue that there is more than one way to learn, more than one way to be "intelligent." Understanding that there are multiple intelligences (Gardner, 1983) may suggest ways of helping children learn by supporting their strengths and working with their weakenesses.

4. Children and community Although a great deal of children's learning is self-motivated and self-directed, other people play major roles as guides in fostering the development of learning in children. Such guides include other children as well as adults (caretakers, parents, teachers, coaches, etc.). But not only people can serve as guides; so, too, can powerful tools and cultural artifacts, notably television, books, videos, and technological devices of many kinds (Wright and Huston, 1995). A great deal of research on such assisted learning has been influenced by Vygotsky's notion of zones of proximal development and the increasing popularity of the concept of "communities of learners," be they face-to-face or through electronic media and technologies

What i'm getting at is not the holding back of idea's from children, concepts can be taught with very little harm. The thing i fear is a world full of children who are taught things to early.

I will use a personal example when i was little (5-6) i discovered by accident that place's like target are very easy to steal from. Now me being so young i didn't have a clue what i was doing was wrong. But it is.

Now imagine a society in which children can be taught the pro's of actions and not the con's. One might say one can teach both sides but thats the problem with dealing with such young people is that they are very good at disregarding the side that doesn't fit their wants.

This is my fear with totally open knowledge such harmless things as politics, philosophy and emotions are great things to teach young people. But they're things that i think would actually cause harm to a functioning society. (I hope that answers your question chris)

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The thing i fear is a world full of children who because they have been given idea's that usually only adopted by people of a older age and will hold those child like philosophy's for the rest of their life's

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And if I get your meaning well enough, then rightly so, and I would suggest that greatest possibility of this happening is by limiting their exposure to reality in all of its facets.

I am a child of a very violent backround, and though I can be prone to it, it is in part because I am extremely sensitive to and aware of it, as well as frightened by it.

I have spent my life trying not to be like and do things that my parents have done, it may very well be that only because I was exposed to a divirsity of backrounds, raised by these parents to a degree, raised by grandparents, lived with aunts and uncles and was exposed to almost everything imaginable that I have managed as well as I have.

Besides food and shelter I certainly haven't recieved much help or support, left to figure the world out for myself, again, finding the most detrimental aspects to be in the forms of firmly established beliefs and the desire to sweep the bad things under the rug, leave those things to god to handle, let sleeping dogs lie.

I've been exposed to incest, rape, beatings, drugs, death, sex, violence, you name it, all at a very young age for durations of time, having come out grateful for my experiences feeling more saddened for the fools lost in their trivial fantasies and delusions of cults and ritual they live by and depend on to protect themselves from such terrible thoughts in mental safety as they sat by and let it happen.

You need more faith in the human spirit's ability to survive and thrive through the true living of life, not the starvation of it, attempting to keep it ignorant of the potency of reality.

Though I do not get the impression that you seek to starve the youth of life, it sounds more like you don't want them lost to the same traps that I feel destroy minds and lives.

Don't fear their attraction to extreme subjects, these are simply the subjects that individuals and societies as a whole have to spend more time and enegy to properly digest.

Which only becomes harder with age after being subjected to dictatorially biased beliefs and manipulated and regimented traditions.

Which in reality, is the real reason why it takes more time, they are having to sift through some seriously backwards and firmly established thoughts on some issues expressed by large groups of rabidly closed minded people who will threaten them when they pose alternative perspectives.

Perspectives which if found to be true would crumble fragile belief systems that so many clueless and addicted souls have become hopelessly dependant upon.

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My fear is children who do not think for them selfs but are lead to believe that they do.

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The only way this will happen is if you attempt to control what they see and how they percieve.

You speak of the fear of what the majority of people are currently doing, indocrinating their youths instead of nurturing them and learning from them.

In your fear of those you speak of and their actions, you have come dangerously close to being like them.

It happens to all of us the moment we think we have all the answers.

sorry iron i took a shower and before you posted I thought I worded by points very poorly so i edited it.

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"You need more faith in the human spirit's ability to survive and thrive through the true living of life, not the starvation of it, attempting to keep it ignorant of the potency of reality"

But it only takes one to change. Large school shooting are one of the reasons i tend to think that humans ability to thrive is sometimes lacking. A lot of the kids involved are very intelligent and do not have the mental stability to handle such heavy concepts on their own yet. So to not be able to hold such thoughts may be in the best interest of everyone around them. Until they are fully ready to be exposed to them.

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The thing i fear is a world full of children who are taught things to early.

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How would you possibly know what is too early, I see a world where people try so hard to hide things from kids that they do it to adults and actually try to never teach them.

They try to ignore the bad parts of the world out of existance. They do it more so they don't have to deal with it, to take responsibility for it then they do worrying about the kids.

Kids minds are so open and innocent that they hold greater potential to solve the worlds problems over this backwards delusional philosophy that you yourself are so stuck to, as another sterling example of just the brainwashing that goes on and the perpetual harm that it causes.

It does more harm to keep kids ignorant and attempt to keep them "ideolistically" innocent and then to toss them into this fucked up world than it does to expose them to it while in some degree of safety under parental care.

I feel I have retained more child like innocence and perspective and imagination, like einstein so espoused as one our greatest gifts and goals, through my exposure to the dark side of life because I saw not only one or two sides of the story, but more.

I was not corrupted by a forced view of black and white alone, I see the fault in the assumptions of the world of concrete answers and dogma.

You try toojm hard to hold a child's mind to a single perspective in life and that is exactly what corrupts and limits it.

You want only flowers and butterflies and happy thoughts or happy versions of thoughts.

Holding to lies and fantasies about life are not ways to grow a child's mind, but to stunt it. They are however great tools to expose just such concepts, ironically teaching children the weakness of not thinking for themselves.

But lack of such discovery is far to often charished as "innocence".

I feel innocence is not the lack of sin or understanding of it, but the natural and unconditional love and trust in humanity in the face of it.

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I will use a personal example when i was little (5-6) i discovered by accident that place's like target are very easy to steal from. Now me being so young i didn't have a clue what i was doing was wrong. But it is.

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This is not an example of being taught anything, you keep making referrence to completely innocent stumblings upon circumstance, this is not wrong, and why it is generally not a punishable offense by law, it is meant as a point of teaching a lesson.

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Now imagine a society in which children can be taught the pro's of actions and not the con's. One might say one can teach both sides but thats the problem with dealing with such young people is that they are very good at disregarding the side that doesn't fit their wants.

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This is exactly what our society is full of and what I spend so much time ranting and raving about. Like unhindered capitalistic greed, censorship, in other words the very system of thought that you keep trying to defend and perpetuate.

Which is oddly uncharacteristic of you given your other thread posts.

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This is my fear with totally open knowledge such harmless things as politics, philosophy and emotions are great things to teach young people. But they're things that i think would actually cause harm to a functioning society.

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You had better hope so, or we are in for a world of hurt. Luckily you only said functional, which this society is now barely, because it needs harm caused to its current main pillars, greed and corruption.

We need just such a revolution of innocence and purity, freedom of information, love of love rather than love of hate, everything symbolised in a child's mind that you are so desperately attempting to segregate from reality.

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But it only takes one to change.

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It can take one instance and one person to start it, but it takes a society to change a society.

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Large school shooting are one of the reasons i tend to think that humans ability to thrive is sometimes lacking..

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Be wary of assuming knowledge of the factors behind such tragedy and then missapropriating blame.

There are so many already known factors to some such instances to even be able to attempt their listing here, but again, some of the biggest lie in the current state of this society and what is being produced because of it.

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A lot of the kids involved are very intelligent and do not have the mental stability to handle such heavy concepts on their own yet

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Once again, it seems far more clear to me that the problem is the of dumping budding adults into the real world who have been kept ignorant of reality through the years where they could have learned to deal with these issues more constructively instead of being treated like idiots, outcasts, problem children, blasphemers, and hethens in need of psychotropic drugs like so many of these shooters are.

Basically your point can be summed up as form of political correctness that is designed to censor and cater to keeping fragile emotions fragile, flaring tempers flaring, and ultimately create and exaserbate the very conditions one would assume such a practice is meant to get rid of.

But what has been shown again and again, is that exposure to fear, sickness, emotional stress, etc. at young ages when they are developing immune systems, physical, mental, and emotional is the way to cure most issues.

It is how we evolve.

This notion you keep holding to is the opposite and the destruction of us as a species.

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"How would you possibly know what is too early, I see a world where people try so hard to hide things from kids that they do it to adults and actually try to never teach them."

Iron do you know what over development is. You know those video's on the T.V. talking about Little Einstein what ever and what not. Well some people did some research and found that these video's actually hinder the development of the very thing

what that they are trying to work on.

A couple more studies were done and it turns out that children exposed to information to early actually take a disliking to it when they are older. So not only are they underdeveloped they are also lacking the interest in certain area's.

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"Kids minds are so open and innocent that they hold greater potential to solve the worlds problems over this backwards delusional philosophy that you yourself are so stuck to"

Yes your correct i'm glad you know me so well. The way a child approaches the world is what makes them great thinkers, As children we hold very little prejudice and also very open minded. We also as children, even when knowing the difference struggle to separate facts and morals.

This is why people adopt these "delusional" philosophy's so that we are cable of not excepting everything we hear as fact. Knowing how the world works not guessing. And knowing that some people are in this world to cause harm. Children could be told this but until they are old enough to except it they will not.

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"You want only flowers and butterflies and happy thoughts or happy versions of thoughts.

Holding to lies and fantasies about life are not ways to grow a child's mind, but to stunt it. They are however great tools to expose just such concepts, ironically teaching children the weakness of not thinking for themselves. "

And you say it with conviction i don't know about you but to have a world that everyone lived with the happiness that children do, this is the world that i strive to make this one closer to. Or does pain make the world a better place. Without ever being introduced to it you would have never thought it possible to feel.

And this does not "stunt" their there growth but rather give them other things to learn about. When given the basics it can make the larger concepts easier to understand. This is the idea behind hiding things. To allow the time to develop and then when they understand the world enough one can fully introduce thoughts of a society that is driven by war and sex.

Such primitive instincts are what you want to stop. By teaching children's bodies to fight instinct they are able to accomplish much more in their life's this is the idea behind not teaching them that just because they CAN do something doesn't means that they SHOULD do something.

The shooting are just one example of why i don't trust man. Genocide, corporate market fixing, and rape are all up there to.

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"You had better hope so, or we are in for a world of hurt. Luckily you only said functional, which this society is now barely, because it needs harm caused to its current main pillars, greed and corruption. "

Children have no control of this, there is a reason why all of them seem to loose their innocence eventually. Thats why if taught such thoughts at a young age it does no harm to the world. When they are older and understand all the different ideas that are out there they can make a informed decision.

Children's idea's carry weight in my mind. They should not however if making a bad decision be held responsible for it. I'm 100% for teaching them about all the politics all philosophy they want. I am not for giving them all the gun slinging footage of people dieing, people fucking and acting like animals. Such primitive ways of thinking would not benefit a society in any way shape or form.

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Iron do you know what over development is. You know those video's on the T.V. talking about Little Einstein what ever and what not. Well some people did some research and found that these video's actually hinder the development of the very thing

what that they are trying to work on.

A couple more studies were done and it turns out that children exposed to information to early actually take a disliking to it when they are older. So not only are they underdeveloped they are also lacking the interest in certain area's.

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Obviously clarification is needed.

I never said anything about forced or saturated exposure.

I obviously didn't specify that I meant natural exposure as either interest occurs or indeed natural exposure.

And as for interest in later life, that is reliant on factors so varied that a conclusive argument in nearly laughable. Besides, any person exposed to anything to much that doesn't have or develop a passion for it tires of it. How many of these kids do you think had baby einstein played till their ears and eyes were bloody by mom and dad who want a baby genius?

Not what I'm talking about.

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Children could be told this but until they are old enough to except it they will not.

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Again, it is not about choosing when to tell someone, its about not withholding when they ask.

But the concept of explaining that there are bad things out there that they need to be careful of is among the earliest they are in need of learning, like fire. Properly discerning what or how much to trust something is never perfected at any age.

And the concept of not believing everything you hear is lost on many adults, let alone children, debates in politics is rife with such evidence.

Also, I fear you make too many assumptions about children's learning capacities. Yes, there will be rocks, but also everything else.

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This is why people adopt these "delusional" philosophy's so that we are cable of not excepting everything we hear as fact. Knowing how the world works not guessing.

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These concepts appear contradictory in my attempt to discern your meaning in the context of my intended use of the term delusional. For the delusional belief systems, not philosophies, I mentioned, have the exact opposite effect, even if applied for that purpose.

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And you say it with conviction i don't know about you but to have a world that everyone lived with the happiness that children do, this is the world that i strive to make this one closer to.

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That will take work and balance or safe destruction of the dark side, again, not something that can be ignored away.

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And this does not "stunt" their there growth but rather give them other things to learn about.

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Bullshit, it stunts them on these all important subjects that affect these and all "other subjects" that exist.

And these "other subjects" are not held back by exposure to that which you are so deathly afraid of.

But, for those who are ready, at their own unknown pace, they will be stunted by holding such things back, whereas others, will, like you said, ignore or not understand untill they are ready.

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When given the basics it can make the larger concepts easier to understand.

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The basics are always there, being seen and learned to help with these larger ones, unless you should decide them too dangerous too....

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This is the idea behind hiding things. To allow the time to develop and then when they understand the world enough one can fully introduce thoughts of a society that is driven by war and sex.

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Oh, the ironies.

The world is driven by sex to sustain our existance, and this only to a degree. It is not something to be feared or hidden, but you do both.

The world is driven by war because of the manipulation of freedom, information, and freedom of information. Something that you are naively perpetuating.

Truly, I understand your position, but I submit it is wrong, somewhat due to a missunderstanding of the one I submit, but ultimately it is an ideal that you may still feel is based on common sense and time tested theory.

But I further submit that it is based on manipulated and detrimental ideologies that have caused so much of the harm you lament.

Stop and think. You may feel that we are more advanced than so many of those old or even ancient societies that have contested your beliefs or simply come before you.

But has not our current society had more negative effects on ourselfves and our society and environment?

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By teaching children's bodies to fight instinct they are able to accomplish much more in their life's this is the idea behind not teaching them that just because they CAN do something doesn't means that they SHOULD do something

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These are two different concepts and you are confusing them.

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Children have no control of this

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Ignroant children, nor ignorant adults,

I may address other points later.