Khat, your thourghts?

Recently, the plant know as Khat has become something of a stigma and due to the bias perspective represented through the media, has now become banned in several countries.
For those who may not know what i am talking about or how this is relevant, Khat is an arid loving shrub which grows throughout many countries in the middle east, where it is used widely for many purposes. Khat is chewed or drunk as a tea for its stimulating affects and for increased concentration whilst working.
Deep in both historical and cultural backgrounds, do you think it is wrong to simply stick a banned label on something people have been using for thousands of years? And just before anyone brings it up, Khat, is in no way, similar to the use of cannabis, which is often used as a relaxant, where as Khat, on the other hand, is traditionally utilized as a work aid.
Share your thoughts about this strange plant and if you have any first hand experience with its use, please, feel free to say so.

Of course it shouldn't be illegal. But there are drugs less deserving of being illegal that are, and some that are more deserving of being illegal, and aren't, so I'm pretty apathetic toward the legality of it, in exception to the precedent a ban would set on other drugs.

Of course, you have to understand WHY they are making it illegal... in addition to being related to amphetamines (which, in my book, means that is automatically needs to be controlled), this long history of use that you speak of it a very violent one. Khat was used by Islamic Warriors ages ago, to make them "fearless" on the battle field. Even today, the Child soldiers in Africa are being paid in Khat for the exact same reason. Khat no doubt supports Terrorism more then any other drug except for the various drugs of the Poppy. There is a LOT of political reasoning behind the banning; it isn't just another example of Anti-drug nuts over-reacting again.

Why do you ask?

I think this is one of the few drugs I have not experimented with. Is this on the side of hallucinogenic? or dissociative?

I've come to see that government bans on such substances is because it gives the user "mind power", if you will. And for a government attempting to have a controlled society, this becomes skewed when all these experimenters are exploring their mind.


maybe more on this subject when I do a little more research on it.

It is a shrub and when chewed acts much like an amphetamine. However, looking at the interactions and the way in works on ones brain, i think it is far more like a dexamphetamine, rather than a metamphetamine.
How Khat can be relate to terrorism, i do not know, as its traditional use was actually more relative to farmers who had to spend all day toiling in the hot sun and were quickly exhausted. Thus, it was used to keep them going and maximize production and how it might have been used by warriors is something i also cannot understand, due to the way it is used.
To be effective, one must take large amounts of bio-mass, chew it up and leave it in the corner of their mouths to be chewed again at a later time. I don't know about you, but if i saw a large group of warriors charging towards me, chewing avariciously, their spittle flying every which way, i would be more concerned about germs. Besides, what it warrior going to do half way though battle if the affect wears off, ask his foe to stop whilst he has a quick chew? Somehow, i don't think so.
Besides, the plant grows like a weed and is relatively worthless. Trust me, if you look hard enough, your would be hard pressed, not to be able to find one or two of these plants growing somewhere in your neighbor hood.
I came across this pant some years ago whilst researching drugs for psychology and had never thought twice about it until a few days ago. I am rather fond of water gardens and find keeping Koi relaxing and whilst out testing my water, i failed to watch where i was going and fell back over the hedge and after a moment or two, realized that i was in a 12ft Khat bush, which has been here ever since i moved in.
From personal testing, all i can say is the effects, in terms of other drugs, is rather pathetic, but to its credit, it dose make a very nice tasting tea, when mixed with peppermint leaves.

Like most "bans" once the "C Lie A" gets a hold of it the truth will be lost in the minutia... so forget it until you try it for yourself if you ever get to ... and then if you get to try a form of it in an unaltered form...

remember that to unify the lower castes is a harm to the higher echelons of any government...

only when that unification is controlled and guided with the expressed purpose of perpetuating the existence of the higher castes...

the SYSTEM

deny this as many will... but free will is mostly illusion... and a grand one at that...

just watch the PBS (Public Broadcast Station) production of the G8 Summit Meeting of their Global Trade Annual agreements...

Here Nations that openly go to WAR all year round, sit at a round table...

there they peacefully discuss everything from a global perspective of business cooperation...

even down to how much rice will be distributed from country to country.. far in advance which is to say how many people will die statistacally in that land.... (from starvation, and lack...)

so we already know how much strife struggle and terror there will be...

in advance...

planned....

financed...

grow up...

don't get angry if this addresses you... just do it.. quicker than you have been... or you may miss important info at crucial turning points in your life...

because you only go around once... not twice... and the older you get the less likely you'll be able to affect a change on a grander level...

believe it or not i don't want to insult you

motivate you... but keep you out of harms way... if that's possible

back to the G8...

the real Khat is in the brain

it is manufactured by the mind

a series of "healthy thoughts" can manufacture the proper feelings or chemical responses

giving the individual the response physically...

in a sustainable way...

repeatable....

it's simple.

EVERYTHING IS LIKE THAT

AND

EVERYTHING ELSE IS TO DISTRACT YOU FROM THIS

PEACE

Well I honestly believe that any substance can and should be utilized if the person using it believes it will help them.

And yes, Mugen did make a clear point. There will be a day when the government bans blue chewing gum because the blue dye it leaves on the chewers tongue is offensive in some way. But I do somewhat believe in government control although I won't go into it...

I loath conspiracy theory. Go read some Facoult, then how he died.Realize the irony, call yourself foolish and move on with your life, safe in the knowledge that there is no master minded ideology behind the government and our judicial system, because that in itself, would be a paradox. If my mind would allow me to think someone as dense as any PM is pulling my strings or having any bearing over my fate, i would have to go and kill myself.

lets hope you don't discover a way to think that way.

What are you rambling about, Adam SG?

"the real Khat is in the brain

it is manufactured by the mind

a series of "healthy thoughts" can manufacture the proper feelings or chemical responses

giving the individual the response physically...

in a sustainable way...

repeatable....

it's simple.

EVERYTHING IS LIKE THAT

AND

EVERYTHING ELSE IS TO DISTRACT YOU FROM THIS

PEACE"

Would you elaborate more on this? I'm interested.

ChrisD -

I would be more than happy to elaborate as far as I am able...

You may be familiar with the synaptic gap... they teach about it in the first year of psychology...

this is where electrical impulses must continue along the wiring of the human form through the body but cross the gaps in between... it's an ingenious system...

the synapes withh a gap looks roughly like this...

------( 0------

a signal crossing the gap looks roughly like this

------( . 0----- ------( .0-----
At the gap the electrical impulse to move your finger (from your brain) becomes a chemical (therefore physical) signal,

crosses the physical gap and is recieved on the other side...

and then is transformed into an electrical impulse again...

and continues on to your finger and wiggles it... in a nano- second...

Well....! At one point the thought was a chemical... at one point all thoughts are chemicals... therefore all thoughts are...
or can be...

or are...

Scientists know this, Martial Artists know this, Bhuddist Monks know this...

Mastery of the self and the thoughts can produce any set of chemicals you desire...

the fact of the matter is... that the receptors in your brain and body become ingrained or trained after years of repetition...

so your body expects only certain types of thoughts or chemicals and therefore only certain types of thoughts are likely to be most successful in getting through to completion...

This is a fact.

Not metaphysics or Mysticism... which I nearly despise.

But through training of certain types and destroying limits in thinking you can attain health through mearly thinking in addition to proper diet and training...

On Adam Seth's note, I would highly advise people to look into "What the bleep do we know". The movie highly revolves around the idea that what we are, who we are and what we can/will become are products of our conditioned thoughts and conditioned receptors.

The concept which describes this is called socialization and is apparent in both sociology and psychology. However, as for A. Seth God, it is clear to me that you have a limited understanding of psychology, or are choosing to discuss concepts and disciplinary facets beyond your capacity.
First of all, no, it is not, in any way shape or form, proven that one can train the brain to release chemicals at will. Primarily, external stimuli is required for the internal result. Yes, there have been situations where things of this nature have been messed up in some individuals, i.e, pain becoming pleasure and so on and so forth. Yet, this is no different to what one can experience under the influence of some drugs, such as DMT, LSD and GHB, all of which, can lead to a drug induced alteration of the brain.
Essentially, i find the idea of your statement laughable. Tell me, why would psychologists be required, if one could simply train their minds to alter and thus reach a state of constant euphoria, joy, or a general sensation of well-being. Also, as psychology is merely the sibling of psychiatry, which is heavily dependent on chemical and synapse alteration, via introduction of drugs, or chemical intervention, it would seem that you have found yourself upon a rather large paradox.
The idea of self mental control and or training is a limited concept and stems nowhere near the lengths to which you claim.
Lastly, having studied psychology and social psychology extensively before my transition, i would suggestyou to do your research and refer to references of a creditable nature. And no, looking it up on wikipedia, giving it a quick google, or randomly browsing through the erowid vaults is not research
Lastly and be advised, whilst having several conditions myself, i would so love to know, how you propose we go about such mental, self manipulation and if it is as plausible and possible as you say, why don't you adopt it yourself and improve your grammar and writing skills. And, before you question me on the relevance of my last statement in regards to the topic, i question, what the hell dose a half-baked, highly contested farce of a psychological theory have to do with the topic?
In future, look before you leap and if you ever do decide to hit one of my threads again, make sure what you add is correct. Oh, and as synapse theory and its role in general psychology is highly affiliated with the autistic condition, just know, i did write a 50,000 word research paper for the APA, which will be published for purchase mid next year. Moron.
Tell you what, next time your feeling in the mood to give your two cents, why don't you take a trip down to your local clinic and find someone with OCD, manic depression or borderline personality complex and try explaining it to them, that the power to change, lies within themselves: $5 we would never hear from you again.

You're gonna' need the $5 to by some of your own mood altering anti-depressing pills... you resort insults...

Tell me OH FLEETING ONE... in your 50,000 word dissertation how much of it required you to insult the position of your readers or your detractors... or the laymen in the crowd...?

Do you assume everyone is on your level or do you assume your level of expertise excludes us from comment of any kind...?

And is this intellectual classism any part of the very problem in the society that you describe in your response...?

Not the problem that you seem to be pointing out... where I lack the accumen to point out alternates to your chosen field of endeavor...

Granted... if I had devoted 8 to 10 years or nearly a decade of my life to study of a topic... then some laymen came and refuted it by his accumulation of knowledge from his own decades of study outside of the classroom ...

well I'd have to be doubtful... questioning... if I found that he or she were less than scientific... I'd have every right to be insulted by the Moron...

But I'm no Moron... But just because you've opened yourself up to being lambasted upon your own insults doesn't mean I will take every cheap shot at you...

The existence of your field of study is not the defense for its own existence...

Try to understand that...

You may have become overly specialized in your training... it happens to many intellectuals...

I'm from the Business Class... The Intellectuals Created the Business Class which in turn created the Military Class which all survive above the Underclass...

But Unlike you, I've already been a success in Business for years and years... I don't need to be published

I sign the paychecks on the front... not on the back at the Bank.

So I don't respond as you would expect to your Sophmoric Taunts....

Sophmoric...

Which leads me to believe you may have yet to be approaching anything like the accomplishments you purport...

And if you find spelling errors... just hope they're not on your paycheck.

As far as my post on your thread... speaking freely....

Intellectuals tend to think they have thought of everything... so there is no need for a response... there is no other side to the argument or debate...

Very Hitler-esque...

The research that supports my general position exists throughout all time in so much detail to deny it is infantile...

only someone willing to trust the letters you tack on to your name over their own willingness to do their own research would accept your detraction... (which seemed to be a personal reaction more than anything else)...

Oh by the way...

I am a Gulf War Era Marine Corps Vet
I have Rapid Cycling Bi-polar Disorder
I have Anti-Social Personality Disorder
I have Manic Depression
I have a host of diagnosis...

I have a brown belt in Kenpo Karate
I have been training in Mixed Martial Arts for 13 years
I meditate regularly.... and as a responsible person I don't recomend it for everyone... but I have replaced most of the chemical regiment prescribed for me with alternate methods of managing MY CONDITION...

Conditioning... I believe you mentioned it... then you denied it was possible... yes you may be bi-polar indeed...

Your field of endeavor supports the use of drugs... chemicals... powerful chemicals... I'm on two of them.

With Men in your field that are unwilling to look into alternatives to that approach... towards equally effective approaches that are more empowering for the individual...

I cannot expect a modern man of your studies to be produced speaking against the use of drugs and only the use of drugs...

AS A MATTER OF FACT YOU SHOULD NOT EVEN BE ABLE TO SEE MY POINT.

quote:

---

First of all, no, it is not, in any way shape or form, proven that one can train the brain to release chemicals at will. Primarily, external stimuli is required for the internal result.

---

What made you think, for instance that the outside stimuli was excluded from the manipulation of the thought process and meditations I was suggesting? Why exclude the one necessary thing from my example to casue it to implode so you can tear at it...? or any number of things...?

You engage in Psychiatry and Psychology.... which of these claims to be an exact Science? And which says that it is not an exact Science again...?

You say my position is LAUGHABLE...? Is it a mirror...?

Probably not, because my position is thousands of years old...

yours is new... and Western.... and Arrogant... so it's Comfortable...

But that doesn't make it Acceptable..

pardon the grammar...

ha' ha' ha'


By the way, why were you experimenting with the drugs... khat

"Doctor"
Pontificating Ethics...?

WE MORONS SEEM TO BELIEVE WE ARE ONE OF A KINDS



By the way in our state they dedicate a day to the morons... and give the key to the city to the morons for business and ethical practices for the last 40 years of business for our family real estate development business... I know you wont believe it...

but that's the Objective Scientist Talking.... not the Intellectual Elitist.. Let the Elite One through at last...

signing off..

ha' ha' ha'

Oh my, that was a good one, but never did i think you would have walked so blindly into it.
I can clear up my argument and validate my harsh words in a very simple way. Are you ready?

You state, "Scientists know this, Martial Artists know this, Bhuddist Monks know this...

Mastery of the self and the thoughts can produce any set of chemicals you desire...

the fact of the matter is... that the receptors in your brain and body become ingrained or trained after years of repetition...

so your body expects only certain types of thoughts or chemicals and therefore only certain types of thoughts are likely to be most successful in getting through to completion...

This is a fact.

Not metaphysics or Mysticism... which I nearly despise.

But through training of certain types and destroying limits in thinking you can attain health through mearly thinking in addition to proper diet and training..."

Correct me if i am wrong, but that seemed a rather objective statement and reading through i see no reference to the use of medication or drugs. Your statement was attributed to three groups of people, two of which, often claim to have complete mastery of mind, body and soul. However, i don't see how living your life alone in a dusty old temple, or bashing your head against cinder blocks archives the latter. Each to there own, i guess.
Simply, you made a direct comment about a discipline you knew nothing about and thus, i argued that point.
I am sure if i had come along and made a half-cocked comment about economic theory, you would have something to say about it, would you not?
Secondly, i never said i was using Khat, nor did i say i was experimenting with it. My interest in the drug stems from cultural facets and clashes, present within everyday society.
I did so enjoy the way you stated everything you are. Indeed, i commend your quick out let. Yet, if you had read my comment, you would have seen that i had said, studies in this field, prior to my change of discipline. Thus, I am not of that field, nor am i of any field. Please, tell me, just what is your business?
Also, check again... i study full time, write for leisure and don't need to visit the bank, they visit me
Tell you what, why don't you put all your brilliant business knowledge to good use and liquidate yourself before you show everyone just what a twit you really are. I don't care who you are, not what you have done. My concerns are only with the topic at hand and if you can't remain objective, that is your own problem, not mine and if you continue to make statements without substance, i will critique you at every turn and not only that, unlike you, i will provide validation for my claims.
Try as you might, you silly little man, you can't push the buttons on a control board you cannot reach.
Also, as for my achievements, you might want to check around. I am a tad of a freak when it comes to the old intellect.
Also, if you want to debate with me, that's fine, be as harsh and forward as you like. However, i do ask that you put your arguments in a clear, unambiguous manner, at least so i can understand what it is you are trying to say. Your retort seemed like a very tightly pinned attempted at sounding educated, what with all the discourse and all, but i am afraid google, wikipedia and online dictionaries will only get you so far. Then again, maybe i am being a bit to harsh. I'm sure, being a individual of your age and having your insight pulled apart by one much younger, is rather annoying. Thus, I'll forgive you this time. Come back when you have a statement and not more garbage, alright?
Almost forgot. Just wanted to mention i loved the way you went on about Western perception. You might want to check my profile and have a look at my country of origin