Would society be better without money? - Page 2

*there will be no private productive property

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I agree. After concideration i have come to the conclusion(nice explainion on the dif. commun, orders Das Kapital)

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Thank you

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1984....

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The future eglitarian society as written by Orwell - Rubbish.

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According to Marx everything will belong to everybody, there will be no private property

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Correct for the most part however if I remember correctly there is a particular branch of Marxism that believes certain forms of property should remain private. This type of thought is more indicative of those collectivist groups.

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there is a particular branch of Marxism that believes certain forms of property should remain private.

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yes, that why I rephrased private property as private productive property.

Could you define "productive" in more detail? Gold isn't particularly productive, but we humans place value thus creating a form of currency. I just see us humans in a communist society placing value on some other rock.

surely productive would mean the ability to produce goods, you may own your own bed, and the house and the food in your cupboards, but a farm would belong to everyone, and everyone would take equal share of the produce.

Marx however is quoted as having said about one particular brand of marxism that "if that is marxism i am not a marxist"

Well, with no money, it'd be harder to maintain a society of hard working people. Mainly, in this [/i]world[i], people work because they're striving for more money so they can have a better lifestyle. Marx suggests we take away possession, but that would just make people angry, they'd think that they were busting their asses so other people could enjoy the fruits of their labor.
Now, there is the possibility that it would have worked out well had money never been introduced into humanity. Now that we've already lived for centuries with currency, we know what it's like to have things and what kind of lifestyles we want, nobody would settle for something like that.

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Marx however is quoted as having said about one particular brand of marxism that "if that is marxism i am not a marxist"

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Incorrect the quote you are reffering to was his response to the paris Commune. The commune was never Communist nor was it even really Marxist they were a coucil formation of anarchists left leaning liberals socialists and even the odd conservative however they did share many aspects common with Communism and were greatly influenced by Marx.

Marx and Engels were also know to speak very highly of the Paris Commune as "a model workers revolution"

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Well, with no money, it'd be harder to maintain a society of hard working people. Mainly, in this [/i]world[i], people work because they're striving for more money so they can have a better lifestyle.

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Incorrect how hard someone will work is based on motivation hence if someone is happy in their work environment and properly motivated they will work as hard or harder for the good of society.

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Marx suggests we take away possession, but that would just make people angry, they'd think that they were busting their asses so other people could enjoy the fruits of their labor.

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A majority of the worlds population are either in the poor or working class category the only people who would complain would be the bourgeois. The "fruits of you labour" are enjoyed by the whole of society just the same you would enjoy the fruits of someone elses labour as well.

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Now, there is the possibility that it would have worked out well had money never been introduced into humanity. Now that we've already lived for centuries with currency, we know what it's like to have things and what kind of lifestyles we want, nobody would settle for something like that.

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I would.

dont think so buddy , well it is always necessary to have sumthin that distinguishes between the diff classes of ppl , u know its a must

dats exactly what marx wanted to finish-the difference between classes.

I've been asking this same question a lot of people and I encountered a large amount of cynism regarding this same question.

However, I believe it's definetely possible in todays world. To begin, it has to be done in a small setting/country of no more then 50000 people with the infostructrure already set in place. Gradually over time more and more people/ possibly other countries will join.

It's natural for people to show off their power and prowess. They do this now through possesions and money mostly. However there are other ways and outlets for this. With a society with no money emphasis has to be set on education. Prestige will show with not how much money you have, but how educated you are and what kind of things you accomplished.

I have many more detailed ideas on how we can get there. Let me know if you're interested.

atr-V

Capitalism is actually the best system for the human animal. America has it, and it's the world's superpower. Anyone who says that what I have should be shared with others just because they don't have as much as I do makes me want to laugh with scorn. Get a job, get money, buy whatever you want. Your comfort requires effort. Get used to it.

By saying it is the best system, that sort of encourages people to do nothing to improve it, doesn't it? Why do you work? You work to get money, to buy things? Alright then, so what is money? Paper. What gives money its value? Today, nothing really other than millions of people like you thinking that it has value. Previously, paper money was given its value being backed by gold or silver. In fact, you were once able to trade paper for its equivalent in gold or silver. Today, paper money is simply what they call legal tender that can only be exchanged for other legal tender. How is that good? Since it has no backing, and those who control money are not audited and not held accountable for anything (prove me wrong), isn't it easy to understand how the rich get richer and the poor get poorer?

People think the prices of everything fluctuate. Really, who determines the so-called value of sand, or paper, or any -thing- that is simply an arrangement of matter that came from somewhere? Sure, the supposed value varies based on supply and demand - that is one economic term so widely repeated. For someone to imply value, they need first to imply ownership of the thing in question. How can one imply ownership? How can you own a grain of sand, a drop of water, AIR, trees etc? Everything is just rearrangements of things already existing on the planet. Who says it's OURS to begin with? It's a system founded on very selfish thinking. Of course, one likes to be rewarded for one's efforts and one's time - that is obviously understandable. Why not work for ourselves and each other? How is slaving away for a greedy corporation BETTER than working for yourself and people around you, seeing the benefit of your time every day?

However... Why don't you think further? People, or groups of people, or events and circumstances determine value of things to a certain extent. How come nobody considers the value of money in relation to the things they buy with it? How come nobody seems to realize that as the value of money decreases, the prices of things seem to increase? The prices are not increasing, it just takes more money to buy the same thing of same value because the value of your money is less! But really, ther was no value to begin with. It is however convenient (for those in control) for you to believe it has value.

Why is it that you have to work longer to purchase the same goods? Just as importantly, why do you think this is OK? Do you think that these fluctuations affects the filthy rich? Of course not! So why doesn't it piss you off then?

I shouldn't have said that paper currency has no backing, that's not 100% true. The U.S. Dollar is backed by oil instead of gold, but it's still a deception because first of all they don't talk about that, and second of all you can't trade your dollar for the equivalent amount of oil. Well you can, but you're being ripped off as the end user, or the consumer, or the lowest schmuck on the pyramid scheme, ladder, whatever you wanna call it. I like pyramid scheme, cause that really is an accurate description of society.

Anyways... why is it that countries globally need to buy depreciating U.S. Dollars to buy and trade oil? Why can't any country trade whatever it wants in whatever currency it wants? They make up these ridiculous stories (ie, propaganda) to make people believe really silly things as some kind of justification for what they're doing...

If money didn't exist, none of the bullshiat associated with money would exist either. Those in power love to talk about the law too, that's even funnier because of one simple thing. Have you ever heard of a criminal that follows the law? Why is it that if you start a corporation, you can be audited... yet the U.S. Federal Reserve is never audited? Why is it that there is political scandal over and over? Nobody is held accountable for their actions, yet YOU as a petty citizen ARE held accountable for the most MENIAL things? Sorry, but if you told someone not to do something, they would be pissed off if they saw you doing the same thing. It really is that simple.

A system that is hypocritical will not create good (maybe it will sometimes create the illusion of good though).

What about education? Why isn't it free? Why isn't there a single word about "critical thinking" in early stages of education? Why are people told WHAT to think instead of HOW to think? For nothing? It just happens to be that way? One would be very naive to think so. A society that truly was for the benefit of its people would have free education, in fact the whole focus of the society would be based on education. The more educated a population, the better chance it has at anything. And one has to make a distinction between education and indoctrination, because people need to be taught about empiricism, critical thinking, true values, et cetera (not just told what to think!!).

People love to go on and on about money. They have no trouble printing endless sums of money for whatever they want... The sad thruth is a money system will NEVER have YOUR best interests in mind. And yes I know a money system doesn't have a mind, but I hope you get my point nonetheless.

Why do you NEED money? Why do you NEED government, police, etc? Implying the need for these things implies the need for control and manipulation, the need to be told what to do, the need to be governed or policed. Why do good hard working people need to be governed and policed? Implying people can not think for themselves (this may be becoming increasingly true as a result). Implying that good honest people are a danger somehow? Mass genocide can occur with nobody held accountable, yet somehow one individual even if he does commit a petty crime, is somehow a danger, a big deal in comparison ? That's simply ignoring the big problems! You don't pay your taxes, you go to jail. Wow, if that doesn't sound like control I don't know what does. It's like the mafia saying if you don't pay us for your protection, we'll kill you and your family (or whatever). How is that ANY different than the government obliging you to pay a portion of your income plus pay taxes on taxes ontop of taxes on every transaction you make, for their supposed "serve and protect"? Everything comes from the people... all the services and "protection" it all ends up being funded from you and me anyways, so how are "they "doing ANYTHING, really? It's just people doing things, but really not realizing that they are a construct of a really sickening system! People acting without realizing how it all works. Without realizing the need to understand. Without ever thinking that they might need improvement. All people can think about is money, a worthless piece of paper representing a debt to the makers of money? How does that NOT sound like INSANITY to you?

Sorry if this was too long to read, I'm gonna stop now. It's crazy, people will probably think ME insane for writing what I just wrote.

You made a lot of good points. I especially liked your solution to the problem which is so basic and so simple and yet people will never get it. Actually caring about what you do. Improvement of anything starts with yourself.

lol. Idealism.

To the above posters- understand girls. They want pretty things. They like being pretty. They like being spoiled. Yeah they want a guy, but the first guy to get them a flower will be first. Then someone will find how to straighten girls hair - and she'll want to have this. Then it will be rings, etc. until daddy has to buy his daughter things because her friends have them, Same with guys. Someone invents a motor car. Someone wants a faster one. To that extent - guys utilise knowledge - that, really is the whole point. Howdo we get to the moon without a rocket. And who wants to be first to get there?


There was no need to write an essay there trippy. Money is a paper form of allowing a person to purcahse things. It is a symbol of power ultimately. A country's natural resources dictate the power of their wealth.

That's not really a revelation. Its power that keeps a country at the top; and others down below. Ultimately, actually, its a product of lively, adventurous, intelligent people that makes a powerful nation.

Likewise, its the lively, adventurous, intelligent people that make the rich people in our society.

There are many peple who moan at it. They are communists. These people that started and uprooted it in places like East Germany were lively and adventurous. They were'nt smart though. Communism is as exciting and as prosperous as beige paint. Have you been to East Germany; every building looks like a clini and the cars are all disgusting. There's no passion and there's no soul.

And these are really the words we should strive for. The romans managed it until they started to allow too many wishy-washy ideas. Yes they were savages, but even the slaves were free men; they could become somebody. I'd rather be a slave with no money and then buy my way into freedom than have a country with no money that in principle would force us back into the dark ages; or perhaps sterility.

But maybe you don't see it. I recently watched American Gangster. The top dog played by Denzel Washington - his name is Frank Lucas had an idea. Cut out the middle man and go buy drugs straight from the source. Result? more pure drugs at a lower cost. That was his idea and it worked for him. He set up a structure - a code - a civic society. Each man gets payed according to his position and what he achieves. That system works. It meant that he managed to keep peace in the area. The order was fine. In his time as king-pin; there was less murder, less violence and less crime. When he got sentenced the system went back to no system.

What happened was rivalry; small gangs fighting other gangs to gain dominance. It was all about money. But in real truth thats just a secondary. It was about winning. I personally quite like this - more competition, but it isn't really very productive. Many people died, crime rose and anarchy meant that women and children were scared because of the state of things.

Now which would you rather have? Order or disorder?

Most people *need* leadership, whether you will admit it or not.

Some people walk around blind and even when you shine a light in their face they still don't see it. To them; so be it. But if you understand the idea behind money; this doesn't mean you automatically fight against it because most people don't understand what they're doing. Thats foolish, womanly and arrogant. See why its there and you'll understand we're better off for it.

Otherwise, stick with your idea and we'll go back to disorder, the middle eastern countries will take control of our disorder and then form their own empire, we'll become slaves and have a few more centuries getting back to where we are now. Once that is, we've lost a few billion lives. The romans had a saying 'divide and conquer'. That's really how things work. But I do like a nice rebellion - its far more fun being the underdog.

This idea was pursued in the hippie communes of the 60's.
Some were successfull while others were not.
Some (like Findhorn) are still in existence today
and successfully living their idealistic lifestyle.
Another large commune still thrives in the coastal hills
of Califonia along the coast of Big Sur.
When you consider that people will break into your
house and kill for money.....
or that our current political administration is
sacrificing thousands of young lives for profit.....
or the countless scams out there to trick you into turning
over your hard earned cash......
The list goes on & on& on.
It seems we could make so much more of ourselves
as individuals, and as a society, if we weren't in
constant pursuit of the almighty dollar, pound,
franc, Euro, or whatever.

GM