The last leg for Atheism - Page 3

quote:

---

An Atheist has no means of support from a hypothetical 'God'. They generally believe that God is merely a human constructed thought.

---

I openly admit that I imagine God - and should I pray and something happen, I think wow, if nothing happens, it is for the best, I don't know better. If I am guilty or angry, it feels that God does not hear me.

quote:

---

Atheism is not a moral stance or a moral choice. Individuals adopt their morals from their context.

---

The scriptures do speak of those who have been given no faith - it does not condemn them but explains that they too can be saved (not advocating salvation just explaining that the bible does not condemn them).

In the Navy one of our crew did not believe in God and we used to kid him a lot - but, we respected him. He was a very moral man. He didn't drink, cus or fight and he was probably more moral then most Christians or those with faith.

quote:

---

Beliefs in a 'God' usually initiate from fear. To one degree or another the theologic religious minds must accept, and believe in, another world; a supernatural or unnatural world, a world filled with imaginary beings called gods, devils, angels, saints, demons, etc. To an Atheist that just sounds foolishly insane!

---

While I cannot explain why someone would not or could not believe in God - only that the bible explains that faith is a gift and some don't have it.

It does require a little bit of imagination to believe, as we don't know what we are believing in for sure and that can be scary and it can be just as easy to say that one will not believe because it was to scary for them.

I will agree though that fear has played a large part in major religions like Christian and Islam.

quote:

---

if that god is a good and noble being he will judge me for my value as a human being, and not for my belief in him.

---

I believe that you are correct - this is one of the things I don't like about Christianity that teaches we are saved by faith not works - A teaching of Paul not found in the gospels (another subject).

quote:

---

The theologist's mind suffers from the illusion of a "higher morality," and because of that illusion all history runs deep with innocent blood. Such foolish illusions do not comfort the Atheist mind. God contradicts Free Will of all living beings including itself.

---

In an effort to stamp out evil religion, communism killed plenty, even here believers are constantly attacked by non believers who believe they are better or smarter then believers.

quote:

---

But I also think that logic has absolutely no place in a discussion about religion/beliefs etc.

---

True - and this is difficult for a non believer who sees everything either logical or unlogical.

quote:

---

The meaning and purpose to life is a matter of personal judgment. Pushing the responsibility onto a hypothetical human constructed thought known as 'god' is an escape, not a solution.

---

Only if you're a non believer. One of our instructors in Boot Camp told us a story. A submarine is in trouble and the crew is doomed to die and no one knows what to do so the Captain leads the crew in prayer, immediately an atheist in disgust decides he's going to fix the problem instead of pray and so he does. The Captain was relieved of his command and the atheist is given a medal (I'm told this was true story).

The instructor poses a question - why didn't the atheist know how to fix the problem before they prayed and the bible does teach that God works in strange ways.

It's another one of those things - you'll never really know and that's why it requires belief.

quote:

---

But I also think that logic has absolutely no place in a discussion about religion/beliefs etc

---

absolutly true. good thing this conversation isnt about religion. its about the lack of.

and well put summit.

quote:

---

Only if you're a non believer

---

agreed.

quote:

---

The instructor poses a question - why didn't the atheist know how to fix the problem before they prayed and the bible does teach that God works in strange ways.

---

maybe he figured it out while he was trying to fix it?

Again summit, I couldn't have put it any better myself.

"Faith doesn't give you knowledge"

My problem with this statement is the assumption that anyone can know anything and i say this because if the person/people who originally invented mathematics had switched two and three then we would say that two plus two equals six and three plus three equals four. The end result then becomes that knowledge itself is an illusion and no one can know anything which is an idea that any "intelligent" person subscribes to.

Ancient and Summit

Let's take this from your point of view. Let's say that for arguments sake that there is no God. Let's say that you are both right. The question that neither of you have yet to answer is "why then do you live". What is it that gets you up everyday. What motivation do atheist find to live. You don't need a reason? That's upsurd bullshit. There is a reason for everthing. A reason for toilet paper. A reason for songs. A reason for love. A reason for anger. A reason can even be found in something pointless like a pile of rubber poop. There is a reason for everthing even if at the time you dont' know what it is. Just like there IS a reason for liveing. But if we follow the athesit views, then there is no longer reason. For there is nothing that last.

Most of all why do you Ancient and Summit come here and type posts. Why if there is no reason to live do both of you feel (like me) the desire for philosophical understanding. Why do both of you make any attempt at all to gain wisdom. Because in your beleifs (even if you gain all the wisdom in the world) there is nothing at the end of it.

If there is no God. Then why do we lock up murders. If there is no God, why do we have values. Why do atheist (some of the most moraly outstanding people there are) still have morals and values. There is no reason for rules or law if no one remebers anything in the end.

quote:

---

If there is no God. Then why do we lock up murders. If there is no God, why do we have values. Why do atheist (some of the most moraly outstanding people there are) still have morals and values. There is no reason for rules or law if no one remebers anything in the end.

---

We lock up murderers and "wrongdoers" simply because they commit actions that are injurious to society. You don't need god to exist to know that society could not function very well if humans were able to kill each other and steal from each other all the time and get away with it.

I'm not sure if there really is"right" and "wrong". It seems possible, but it also seems that they are things we have created. But at the same time I believe if we look at things from the standpoint of "how does this action affect the general population and it's overall well-being", then we will find certain actions are harmful.

Maybe one could say "morals" come from basic understanding of human nature and respect for our fellow beings and ourselves. I don't see the necessity of god in any of these situations.

Conway your just going to have to take a class on ethics and humanities becuase I don't feel like giving you the course as I remember it. And it seems thats what your needing.

Ancient

Don't be a fool with a copout answer. Still you refuse to tell me what it is that gets you up in the morning. I have answered all of your questions and you have answerd none of mine

Enigmatic

Why if ther is no God do we feel the need to protect society. If in the end all of society will not remeber. In fact in the end there will not even be a society. Why do we waste time protecting a society that will eventually not exist. Kinda a wast of time isnt' it.

My whole point all along has been this.........

We all (atheist and beleiver) get up every morning and live. We all live dispiate the fact there is no physical reasoning to do so. We all have emotions. Which cause us all to want ot live. If one were a true atheist he would be mute to the world, and he would have no qualms about killing himself. He would do nothing to prevent his death.

Most of all......
NO I am NOt afarid of not existing. How could I be. What fear is there to be found in not existing. If you don't exist then your not aware of that fact. What I'm saying is it's strange, very strange that we "humans" are the way we are. WE LIVE. And we Know we live. That is all the proof of a God type enity's existecne that I need. Some can not see the connection.

Conway: Life to me is rather more fullfilling and purposful than wasting my time in feebly believing in an illusion known as 'god' and 'faith'. To look at the world objectively, fearlessly, always attempting to understand everything as a part of nature is motivation. Pushing the responsibility onto a hypothetical human constructed thought known as 'god' is an escape, not a solution.


A DAY IN THE MIND OF AN ATHEIST
In the morning, when consciousness is struggling to begin facing the day, the habit of having a coffee kicks the neurons into gear. The mind stirs and is suddenly alive and aware that it is facing a new adventure. No death in sleep this time. One night though, but then again I wouldn't know, would I?

The sun casts a golden glow in the east. No illusions as to thoughts of supernatural origins begetting this nuclear furnace for the most of history, for me. Pondering how the ancients considered the Earth as the centre of everything, with the Sun revolving around it, has me thanking my lucky stars for the scientific knowledge existent today.

Heading out for my early morning stroll in the chill winter air with a thick fog encompassing all before me, gladdens the feeling that I am entering the realm of nature in the raw. No need to fear mysterious and ghostly creatures suddenly appearing out of the mist or indeed, the "Devil" arriving to take my 'soul', or any other such nonsensical happening.

The excess moisture dripping from the gum leaves and branches reminds me of the interdependence and interplay of chemicals and structures of them, and how the immensity of time has moulded all things to be as they now are in my presence.

A disappearing rabbit, a Kangaroo in the distance, the first call of a Raven with the ensuing warble of awakening magpies heralds the new day. Life, as it has been in a multitude of shapes and sizes since time immemorial prepares to live once again, to feed, to become strong, all for the purpose of eventual reproduction. My mind can hardly appreciate the thousands upon thousands of times the circle of life, for each animal I pass, has taken place.

Reality of the harshness of nature is brought home with a pile of feathers strewn at the base of a Wattle. To live, some must die and a mockery of "god is love" passes through my thoughts. How many creatures were torn asunder last night? This is not creative love - this is sadism by an all-powerful monster. I move away from these thoughts before despondency of the foolishness of a god fearing humanity sets in.

The fog gives way to the rising heat of the Sun and in the distance the mosaic patterns known so well, re-establish themselves, with my amazement as new, as though it were the first sighting. How full of wonder it is to be alive.

Breakfast is accompanied by the radio telling of all the new horrors that have taken place locally and internationally. As each item is reported, the count for religious responsibility rises and I marvel why the connection is not mainstream. My heart is saddened for those thus suffering, and in opposition, my joy in having rejected superstition somewhat ameliorates the feelings of guilt that the religious should have but do not.

Today is Sunday, and whilst billions of other people will be mumbling to their god, I will be shopping for food. I contemplate for a moment what I would think, were I a god and what effect a few billion or so whining, whinging and crawling servants would have on me. They do not even know if I really exist, yet, that does not stop them. What a sad and frightened lot is my creation. Too brainwashed to think for themselves. Back to reality land and I am oh so happy that I am not one of them.

The shopping centre is a hive of activity. A collection of humanity busily pushing and rushing and mostly looking unhappy. The cupboard was bare and now the trolley is overfull. I do not thank a god for this harvest but I do consider the effect my living has on the planet. I buy with this in mind, looking for ingredients and packaging that have the least effect on precious earthly resources. It is very noticeable that not many of my fellow purchasers are similarly discerning and I ponder if the "god will provide" philosophy is at fault. To some extent, this would have to be correct.

The car takes me away from the crowded shops. The millions-of-years-aged petrol pollutes the atmosphere as I go, leaving me reinstating promises of being thrifty as possible with its use. There is some consolation, in that of the religious people I know, most are more concerned with the actual monetary cost of fuel and it is reinforced with me that such a philosophy is flawed at the basic level.

Passing the ample supply of churches, I notice that some are full and some are not. A profound happiness enters my consciousness at having escaped the cultural absurdities of worshipping a pretend god. My luck in this can only be described as beyond belief. To be born is winning the lottery, to live for an average span is another, but to be able to think any thought without guilt or compromise, is the lottery of all lotteries.

The rest of the day is amused with natural process, and away from the ever-present reminders of godly things, such thoughts are not even entertained. The pleasure of a quiet dinner with a couple of wines, of writing to a few friends via E-Mail, of another attempt at fixing a broken gate, of phoning a family member and just contemplating the joy of living, leaves the mind in a state of comfort and serenity.

The night has arrived, it is a few hours old, and the rain is softly pelting on the western windows. The television has transformed from the entertaining to the banal and it is time to retire for this day.

As I lay in bed before sleep envelopes my Universe, I contemplate today's events. My very last thoughts, before I am unconscious once again, revolve around my incredible luck of arriving at a position of actually seeing life as life really is. The induced phantoms of a ubiquitously taught unreality lay slain, and exist no more.

I drift off into the land of Nod, and I am complete. Goodnight.

David Nicholls

Qutoe

"Always attempting to understand everything as a part of nature is motivation"

Do you then realise that even if you accoplish you task, and you understand everything as nature, it is still then pointless. Because a moment will come were you no longer have all that knowledge you have gained. What is your point. Futhermore not beleiving in God is an escape and beleiving is the solution. You are the one without a solution. You have no reasoning for reasoning. Were as I do. But you don't like the most logical of answers so you call it an escape. It is the most logical thing that an omnipotent being should exist. Or that in fact we ourselfs will reach omnipotent levels. There is no reson in us liveing if there is no resaon. And we do live so then there must be a reason

quote:

---

I have argued many times with an atheist. And the conclusion that all our argueing came to was the idea that 1) nither of us could prove God. 2)It is far better that he exist than that he doesnt. However it remains that the atheist said that we only want God to exist. That we want this because we can't deal with the possibilety that he doesn't. He said that he could. I thought about it and decided I was fine with him not existing to. But how is it that one does still prefers that he does not exist. Why does the atheist prefer that God doesn't exist?

---

You might be able to prove that "God" doesn't exist, if your friend would give you a definition of "God".

It's true that there's a strong motivation on the part of most people to believe that there is some consciousness outside of themselves who is constantly caring for them, but I would not say that most people simply cannot deal with the possibility that no such consciousness exists. They could deal with it just fine; they just choose not to.

In point of fact, however, there is no reason to fear. The same benefits that belief in a benevolent higher being bring we already possess, if we would only realize it.

quote:

---

Why if ther is no God do we feel the need to protect society. If in the end all of society will not remeber. In fact in the end there will not even be a society. Why do we waste time protecting a society that will eventually not exist. Kinda a wast of time isnt' it.

---

No.

So if god doesn't exist, there's no reason to preserve humanity and civilization?

I believe that learning about nature and the universe in which we live gives fulfillment to our short lives, and it doesn't matter if god exists or if we have an afterlife or anything like that. I don't want to die thinking I never really reached a certain understanding of everything.

And does the belief in god really give you that much more purpose? I consider myself a moral person, and all I want to do in my life is learn, be good to my fellow humans, and enjoy the ride. How is that not purpose?

Enigmatic

How is it that you can not see it. If you accomplish all that you want. With out a God then tell me what you have done. Le's say you saved the world from all sickness and all pain. Let's say that you alone made this a perfect world. Now when you die and when all the people who's life you saved die. Then what have you done. The answer is nothing. Because you don't exist. All your efforts were pointless.

Not one Atheist has the right to say anything is bad or wrong or immoral. Because without a God there is no reason for morality. And therefore all people have the right to do what ever they want including rape and murder, because without a God he or she wil not have anything to answer to.