Buddhist riddles/interesting philosophies - Page 4

Anyone who says Willowwater didn't figure the chicken in the bottle thing out is lost in arrogance... or something worse...!

Ha' ha' ha' - how creative... almost poetic the way she did that...

Without dancing around the subject at all... but by accepting life on life's terms and her place in the scheme of things...

My answer was going to take a longer time to write but add up to something quite similar because I believe all forms of energy seek to change or transform, into one another... so eventually the bird would have become the bottle... or died... to put it plainly...

Willowwater put a smile on my face that's for sure....!

To add to Zato's original comment, I think the 4th dimension is time. So don't put the egg in the bottle in the first place.

I acknowledge what was said by Willowwater March 7 2008...
I actually answered in the same way, before reading her post...
Below is how I dealt with the same possibility...
Sorry for repeating, what she said, I just liked the story that I used...

Perhaps, you don't kill the chicken or find a way to get the chicken out...
But, you keep thinking...
Hours go by... Days go by... Years go by...
Finally, twelve years later the chicken dies (of a lonely heart)...
So you decide to get the chicken out of the bottle, but it is such a good bottle, you decide not to break it... So you cut the chicken up and take it out...
Now the chicken is out... Suddenly you think back...
'I never killed the chicken... The bottle was never broken... But I did get the chicken out of the bottle...'

In regards to the Super Bullet and Super Armor Plate... If the bullet can never hit the armor plate, both are still doing their job... So maybe, the Armor Plate has a special quality when being targeted with Super Bullets... The Bullet may never get the chance to hit the Armor plate... The Koan never says that the two actually collide...
Maybe this is possible due to a number of potential qualities:-
There is a magnetic field or some sort of pressure pushing the Bullet off course...
The Bullet structure may be so small, and the Armor Plate so large, that the Bullet does not hit the Plate, but go straight through it (as such)

Now Buddhism, using the word alone, is not a philosophy, it is a way of life. Now the way of Buddhism may involve using philosophy, but the philosophy itself would be referred to as 'Buddhist Philosophy', not just Buddhism...

In regards to Koans having answers, it really depends on what is meant... From my answer above to the chicken in the bottle, although not stated specifically, it may have been assumed that the chicken needs to be alive outside the bottle... I am no expert, but depending on the context and how you define the problem, defines the possibility and features of an answer... So the words used may not always do the Koan justice...
From what else is said about Koans, it appears there are sometimes very real answers, but often based on us not getting past the point where, all that we can say that exist or do things, is a matter solely for the mind...

Just thought of another possibility for chicken and bottle...
What if you did cut up the chicken, take it bit-by-bit outside the bottle and put it back together again, without the chicken dying?...

Also, I like David Hill's post October 25th 2005... That even though you may find one answer to a Koan, there may be more...

Again, another long post... I do apologise...

The thing about Koans is that they split hairs... usually one hair at a time...

And that is to say the equivalent to saying "...the same difference..."

Or the oh so famous: "What's the difference between a frog?"

People say these as jokes... So the immovable object is met by an unstoppable force...

Upon examination the immovable object and the unstoppable force share so many core characteristics that any difference is merely of perspective...

or if you must... so minimal as to not affect the answer or the question...

You see the immovable object IS! an unstoppable force... and the unstoppable force would remain unchanged if it were simply to remain stationary...

The magic bullets obviously would represent impenetratable armor if they were simply immobile and clustered properly...

Given proper propulsion (speed) the impenatrateable armor becomes the magic bullet...

This form of devisive thinking - (a thought against itself) - is as stimulating to creativity as it is disquieting... unneasy at times

So the value of the Koans are not seen until they serve the purposes of the creative forces in the universe... death / life / progress / time and the foundation of nothingness itself...etc.

So after much deliberation and saying all that to say this... Exposure to the, (what I termed as devisive), nature of Koans illuminates the Unity of the Uni-verse.

To go from doubt to epiphamy then to resolute-mindedness... is a practiced skill and art of critical thinking...

There is a great deal lost in the translation of a personal experience like that... truly enlightenment can only be attained not related... or we'd all just go get some and come back.

Consistently, therefore, Koans appear as neither ill nor favor...

I would like now for any of those responding to relay any of the most inexhaustable Koans they've "stumbled" with, (or over), along the way... Thanks in advance as there is so much time between my posts.

D.

I think first of all I would like to pose the question - what is true enlightenment? Because clearly, every single person in the world has a different perception of the universe and their own place in it so therefore enlightenment may mean many different things to many different people, the most enlightened soul in the world May be sweeping my street this evening.

As for the chicken in the bottle I would have to say that the bottle, which is made of glass is only a barrier in its solid form, I know we can't melt the bottle in its entirity because that would kill the poor chicken, but surely you could melt the neck of the bottle just enough to change its shape - make it big enough to pull out the chicken once it has cooled. After all you are not breaking the bottle just re-shaping it whilst it is in another state of being (a liquid). Once it has hardened again, you still have the same bottle, unbroken just reshaped and a living chicken outside the bottle.

I guess I equate moments of enlightenment like "Aha!"-moments...
This is when you figure something out and it clarifies perspective.

To be more enlightened might suggest you have had many more or simply better qualities of these moments...
But that seems hard to measure, even harder to compare.

I guess answers to Koans can bring on these moments as they're designed to make you think of things you probably have not done before, and thus in your figuring, you are more likely to have an "Aha!"-moment around Koans.

I'm wondering if constructing Koans is as difficult to figuring them out... Maybe something to reflect on.

(Personally I like riddles with alliteration like "How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?"

When objects are classified as unmovable or unstoppable, we need to understand that these are statements made as absolutes that are unable to ever be tested fully and thus are inaccurate. One will always give out.

just saw this a few days ago and it seems amazing ....and yes this is a heck of a koan did anyone figure it out?

well let me take a crack at it with my own bit of logic/experience....i believe that i am not allowed to break the glass...soo simply...the same way that the chicken built strength on its' beak to break the 'hard' egg shell from the inside...you can't do much but allow the chicken to build strength on its beak to crack the bottle....moral of the story i think is, let others figure out there own problem. by helping them is too deprive them from their own life lessons that will help them in the future ...-phew- that was tough to explain lol

hmm.. I haven't read every one's responses so I dunno if this has been pointed out already, but what about this idea (it's a little gruesome, but I think it works)...

The first post said:

quote:

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..the trick here is to get the chicken out without killing it, and without breaking the bottle

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Well, how about waiting for the chicken to die? You wouldn't be killing it, it would die on it's own and then once it's dead you wait for the body to decay enough where it could just fall out of the bottle. What do ya think? It doesn't say that the chicken must be alive when you take it out, just that you can't kill. Killing isn't the same as it dying naturally.

Lol, I wonder if this is the solution Buddha had in mind?!! And if not, I wonder if Buddha was aware that such ideas would arise from his riddle.

Dawn - I have to admit you just opened my eyes lol , I think your on to something

Lol, thanks, I was kinda afraid that my idea would be viewed as sadistic - when it's just an idea - however if that is the solution wouldn't that make Buddha a bit of a sadist!? I mean, poor little chicken, having to be born in a bottle without free range and grass to play on..

lol well looking back,i think my idea is a bit mastacistic....but you helped balance it out lol.
And talking about free range...you dont happen to mean a farm do you

lol, well I borrowed the term 'free range' to imply the chicken's freedom of space to roam around be a free birdie versus being cooped up up in Buddha's glass bottle. Technically yes, 'free range' is a type of farming method - ever see the 'free range' eggs or chickens in the grocery store? Those chickens get to run around and have a bit of fun before the inevitable

Seriously though, even with your solution, if that's the answer Buddha was after, isn't that kinda cold of him seeing as he was the one who instructed putting the egg in the bottle to begin with? I mean, letting others figure out their own problems is true but if you're the one who took the birdie from it's momma, don't you hold some responsibility to helping the little fella out?

ok but didn't Buddha hole teaching go about suffering?

i suspect this riddle is to show suffering rather than getting the chick out.

maybe it was just to get people to recognize suffering but as far as it gos i think you all failed to acknowledge that if it was made for that so he was unsuccessful if it was meant that way.