Chaos theory - Page 4

quite right Azhrei. It all comes down to what and how we perceive our surroundings. Reality exists in the mind. Maybe Chaos is a merely a human constructed thought or observation. Or maybe it is a fourth dimension force that cannot be perceived to its full extent and therefore is ultimately external from our individual reality.

I do not really like the term "Fractual dimensions" chaos theroy exsists in the world, we just cannot percieve it easily becuase it ties in with the concept of infinity.

If one considers chaos as another dimension, then it must include the dimension of time. I do believe chaos is a subset of our universal physical dimensions- space, matter, and gravity. I don't think chaos is an independent realm, because for chaos to exist it must interact with our universal dimensions. Then again, this leads me to a paradox, because I believe that there are two dimensions of time (similar yet different from what Einstein's theory of relativity). This paradox is that 'external time' is the only independent dimension. My theory is:
External time cannot be perceived but internal time can. There are 2 types of time meanings-
1. measurement of time (socially constructed- internal) and
2. absolute time (external).
We invented time measurement, not the universe. Time is a concious experience. Measured time is nothing in reality but exists only in the mind's apprehension of that reality. However 'real' or external time for me does not need to be measured. It can't be measured. This 'real' time exists externally from the mind, where it has no relative date. This time is independent of matter movement/temperature. If the universe froze then time will continue to flow. Time exists even when there are no events. I believe there was no beginning and there will be no end (time is infinite) and therefore internal (socially constructed) time is irrelevent. Being independant from all matter doesn't mean it can't affect matter. It just means that time is continual regardless of any matter. If time stops, the capacity to observe time stops.
Now all of that is relevent to Chaos.

Its interesting you mention the connection between chaos and infinity. How do you perceive this connection?

quote:

---

Its interesting you mention the connection between chaos and infinity. How do you perceive this connection?

---

I'm sure you all have read about how a sceintist tried to exaclt measure the length of the coast. Well he couldn't becuase each time you look closer their are more bays, a bay between every two particles of sand. Well this can be continued to say as far down as you can look their will be a gap between the sub-atomic particles, etc...

Its interesting you should say that about time. I have always assumed you cannot have a three demensional universe without time. There would be no progression. The measurement of time is the human construct.

I hope that made sense, its really early here and i find it dificult to explain myself while on my first cup of coffee.

It did make sense. I think your refering to fractals. Fractals are shapes found in nature, like the coast (as you said), or something like a fern or flower, where there are infinite gaps.

Yeah what I said about time is my theory. I just don't think time is as linear as scientists claim it to be. I believe there has to be 2 time dimensions (internal- what we perceive, and external- what we can't perceive)

i have never really though about time outside of linear time, except when referring to god, so please elaborate on the difference between internal and external.

It is a theory in the making, so I can't elaborate too much at the moment. You may think it is crazy, but I think it is a bit of thinking outside the box, outside the linear time realm.
Apart from what I've described about the difference before, here is a bit more...
Ok so it's beyond our universal physics and it is sort of a metaphysics idea. It all comes down to our inner individual reality, and the external universal reality (which please note, doesn't exist in our reality). The difference between internal and external is a multiple timeline and multiple reality. Think it as the layers of an onion. So our universe is one of these cell layers. Each layer has its own internal time span. The corresponding layer is another universe with different time and reality. The layers never end, they are infinite; there is no beginning and there is no end. This infinite realm is the external time. It is an infinite time continuim. There is no one outer layer of the onion. And therefore external time is not in a linear fashion. Now this connects with chaos. Each layer has a different chaotic realm. And each layer consequently affects the corresponding layers. That is how I perceive our universe and other universes.

Now I won't be suprised if anyone can't understand my ideology. My theory of external time cannot be proved or disproved by physics, as reality only exists in the individual mind.

Do you think each person has their own individual internal time? How would it interact to the external time?

no I don't think that. On the other hand I believe in relativism. I don't believe there is a universal absolute reality. Individual reality exists. External time is time independant of our universal dimensions. However it interacts in a chaotic way, regardless of time. Mind boggling yes, as I said its a theory in the making.

Do you think then that every person has their own reality, or that every object, every plant, animal, and grain of sand has its own reality?

This also can't be proved, but my view is that we have a limited form of individual reality, this being how we percieve the world around us, but that the universe itself exists independent of us, and is the "real" reality.

Reality is a perception from an individual living organism. I've posted my thoughts of reality and truth in a lot of detail from a few threads. Heres one if your interested-
http://www.captaincynic.com/thread.php3/thrdid=50709-u-frmid=17

quote:

---

This also can't be proved, but my view is that we have a limited form of individual reality, this being how we percieve the world around us, but that the universe itself exists independent of us, and is the "real" reality.

---

Right on! It also can't be disproved. And this external reality of this independent universe cannot be perceived by our internal individual reality. Yet I believe it exists.

As ive mentioned before, Chaos exists in many domains of the universe, if not in all areas. I think one of the most interesting realms of chaos is in astronomy, where chaos refers to an abrupt change in some property of an object's orbit, in this case a planet. An object behaving in a chaotic manner may, for example, have an orbital eccentricity that varies cyclically within certain limits for thousands or even millions of years, and then abruptly its pattern of variation changes. The result is a sharp break in the object's history -- its past behavior no longer says anything about its long-term future behavior. Astronomers can predict with relative ease how Earth and the Moon, will travel around their common center of gravity. However when a third gravitating body is introduced (like another planet or the Sun) this makes the long-term evolution of the system impossible, in principle, to predict. Its also interesting that current computers can't even keep up with the lengthy long-term calculations.

Quite right, that is also the most interesting use of chaos theory. I can not remember were i read it but they said that the moon will either one day break orbit or crash into earth, but it cannot be predicted.

Its interesting that if the moon did break orbit in the near future it would probably destroy the biological era (if global warming doesn't wipe out life before). The moon helps to stabilise Earth's axial tilt, and its absence would radically upset our planet's climate. Earth's rotating momentum is slowly being transferred to the Moon's orbital momentum. This consequently means that the moon recedes from the Earth at 38mm a year. Its initial and changing conditions could affect the chance of breaking its orbit, and hence a chaos event.

Ok so basically if everything happens based on previous actions then what was the original action? What started the whole action frenzy? The brain can't be calculated. There's too many possibilities. And even if such a thing was achievable why would you want it? That to me would be a violation of freedom and plain boring. We would always know what comes next.