christians? - Page 4

quote:

---

relying on nothing but herself, and will be stronger in doing so

---

Why do people associate self reliance with strength? If you break your arm do you say to yourself "Self, I can get through this I need no one else to help me." Only a great fool would rely on his own strength rather than the help of trained professionals. If you lost a loved one would you seek comfort only in yourself rather than talking it out with a friend?
It's no wonder society is such a mess. It's because people that believe in the power of self are undermining the power of community.

why bother to live at all? what are you talking about???

what makes you worthless then? and if you found out you were worthless what would you do aboujt it? say ' oh i dont need to live b/c someone told me, or proved (?) im worthless!?'
strength IS self reliance. You are all youve really got. everything in the world can be taken away, but youll always have you. if you are self reliantand independent, that doesnt mean youll never accept help with anything . come on now.


you sound like you think you have the answers to alll the worlds troubles.

quote:

---

This is the fundamental flaw of giving man the power to choose what is right and wrong.

---

Think before you answer these questions...

Did you or did you not CHOOSE to "believe" and have faith in a standard of right and wrong?

Do you or do you not choose to believe that your "belief" in what is right and wrong, is right?

Can you say to yourself without any doubt, self delusion, oustide influence or lies that you KNOW and truly BELEIVE that what you claim to believe is true and that you do actually believe it?

For the last question a specified context is needed. One would have to determine what it is you believe in.

The reason why I take this direction here is because there is no need for conflict on this topic from anyone recently speaking here on it.

By this I mean that we all agree on the general morals, the main thing in dispute, besides what is an acceptable way of living and behaving, is basically semantics, hence my emphasis on highlighted words above.

Within these semantics lies points that Decius, Better, and myself are trying to convey.

One is that in your stating about man's faultiness in deciding what is right and wrong you are unwittingly contradicting yourself as you express your chosen definition of right and wrong.

The fact that you claim, without any factually supportable reason, that your accepted choice is not yours but God's that you have found, neither makes that true, nor changes the fact that YOU DECIDE AND CHOOSE IT!

The other point comes in the loss of understanding that regardless of chosen religions or otherwise that we all agree on general and basic social moral standards.

A significance of this is what Decius is saying about your expressed choice of religion, that it doesn't take one first off to have common sense, compassion, or "morals". But also that it is indeed a dependency, illogical, contradictory, and therefore detrimental to yourself and others.

What so many "Christians" fail to grasp is that morals aren't a Christian or religious creation, nor does it take self punishment, degradation, guilt or fear to have morals and common sense.

And what I always add is that because common sense makes sense in the bible, and that it can even be nice to have a handy guide and group to remind or even enforce to degrees at times, does not make it true, nor right or wrong,

To say you have faith in the "good" (as well as the "bad" ) of the universe, its creator(s), and man, the bible, etc. is one thing and sensible.

To say that you have faith and believe that Christianity and the Bible are right and true as a whole is another thing entirely, and not very logical.

None of us would bother telling you these things, which should not be considered blaphemous or wrong of you to feel or ponder, if we didn't sense good and intelligence in you, especially intelligence and further good being expressed but hindered by your fear and dependency/addiction to what you are trying to convince yourself and others that you believe, when you only believe half of it, the parts that make sense.

Most Christians think God tests them, especially in terms of separating the damned from the saved, I often try to add the perspective that what if he were only to save those who realize and overcome the faultiness of mainstream religions/cults and simply follow God's gift of common sense morals.

And if you don't think faith and worship based religions are cults, including Christianity, then you don't know the definition of the word cult.

Semantics... more important than you think.

quote:

---

This is the fundamental flaw of giving man the power to choose what is right and wrong.

---

Ok I didn't say that the way I meant it. What I was trying to say is that if man chooses individually what is right and wrong instead of basing it on one standard then we have the problem of being able to challenge another's ability to be right. If we all chose by ourselves then I could steal everything from you and no one could call my actions wrong. There must be a common standard of morals that applies to all people in a certain society.

quote:

---

Did you or did you not CHOOSE to "believe" and have faith in a standard of right and wrong?

Do you or do you not choose to believe that your "belief" in what is right and wrong, is right?

---

I chose to follow a common set of standards rather than my own.

quote:

---

Can you say to yourself without any doubt, self delusion, oustide influence or lies that you KNOW and truly BELEIVE that what you claim to believe is true and that you do actually believe it?

---

If I didn't honestly believe it (or at least think that I believed it) then I wouldn't be arguing here.

I believe that man is guilty of sin and that God sent His son Jesus to pay the price so that we may have eternal life. I believe these things because my experiences with life have showed me God is real, my experiences with God have showed me that the Bible is His word.

quote:

---

To say that you have faith and believe that Christianity and the Bible are right and true as a whole is another thing entirely, and not very logical.

---

Not very logical to some people maybe. I've argued with a lot of people over religious matters and yet not one of them can produce enough logic to have any sort of impact on me. No one has been able to prove that I am wrong so even if you choose not to believe me you still cannot change my mind.

For the better,

quote:

---

and if you found out you were worthless what would you do aboujt it?

---

If someone proved I was worthless than I would simply go and prove that I wasn't. But if this is improvable then I would have no course of action.

One can determine their worth by seeing what they accomplish. You can see the results of your actions and those are the manifestation of worth. If you help someone you show not only that you have worth but that that person also is worth helping. Whereas if you beat someone up and take their wallet you are showing a lack of worth because you are being unproductive to society.

I don't have all the answers but I have what I need to get through each problem as it comes.

quote:

---

I chose to follow a common set of standards rather than my own.

---

Are you saying your personal standards do not match those of the common set?

quote:

---

I believe that man is guilty of sin and that God sent His son Jesus to pay the price so that we may have eternal life. I believe these things because my experiences with life have showed me God is real, my experiences with God have showed me that the Bible is His word.

---

I think you were more correct when you said...

quote:

---

I chose to follow a common set of standards rather than my own.

---

This including a set of "beliefs". You chose to be a sheep.

I can understanding coming to know or feel that a God exists, but I'd like to know how you determined that "the Bible is His word".

And if you find that its because it made you feel good, and think hard before dismissing this, then you may need to think again.

quote:

---

No one has been able to prove that I am wrong so even if you choose not to believe me you still cannot change my mind.

---

Wrong? About what? According to your chosen quote of mine that would be about the source, accuracy, and validity of the bible and its claims, especially as the word of God.

It is documented history that man wrote, rewrote, rearranged, and manipulated the Bible. As well that many bible stories are retold versions of older stories from other religions/cults.

Claims of God having anything to do with it are just that, claims.

Your defensive insistence upon calling unknowns as factual realities is why you are indeed wrong, which has nothing to do with the actual validity of the material in question, just your insistence upon claiming knowledge you do not posess.

quote:

---

If someone proved I was worthless than I would simply go and prove that I wasn't. But if this is improvable then I would have no course of action.

---

Life is life, not a game of worth. Your course of action is to live and die, worth is relative and therefore imporvable by a single standard, it is a chosen opinion.

quote:

---

If you help someone you show not only that you have worth but that that person also is worth helping.

---

And if that person is a systematic murderer rapist billionaire politician?

quote:

---

Whereas if you beat someone up and take their wallet you are showing a lack of worth because you are being unproductive to society.

---

And if that person is a systematic murderer rapist billionaire politician?

Worth is relative.

quote:

---

Are you saying your personal standards do not match those of the common set?

---

My standards have been changed to match the common set.

quote:

---

I think you were more correct when you said...

---

How can you assess the validity of experiences you never had?

quote:

---

You chose to be a sheep

---

We all choose to be sheep. Simply sheep of different shepherds.

quote:

---

I can understanding coming to know or feel that a God exists, but I'd like to know how you determined that "the Bible is His word".

---

Same way I came to know that God exists.

quote:

---

It is documented history that man wrote, rewrote, rearranged, and manipulated the Bible. As well that many bible stories are retold versions of older stories from other religions/cults.

---

Can you prove that those stories did in fact come from other religions? If you cannot believe the Bible because man physically wrote it then you cannot believe any history unless you were alive to see it happen. All of history is misrepresented by those who wrote it so that means all the historical stories we know of must be false.

quote:

---

My standards have been changed to match the common set.

---

So no then. Does this then mean that you desired to kill, rape, and steal?

quote:

---

How can you assess the validity of experiences you never had?

---

Not the validity of your experience, but the conclusions and ideas you associate with those experiences.

You are the one trying to validate the ideas of others by your experiences. Thereby attempting to "assess the validity of experiences you never had".

quote:

---

We all choose to be sheep. Simply sheep of different shepherds.

---

This is true in many respects. And was an emotional and hypocritical statement on my part. My hypocritical expression was one of frustration in your ignorance of your own hypocritical logic.

quote:

---

Same way I came to know that God exists.

---

This could be considered an answer if I were you and knew what you were talking about, I am not, please answer to the enlightenment of others if you are going to bother.

And I would very honestly like to know how and why you have come to determine that the Bible is indeed the word of God.

If, however, you are just trying to explain that you chose to believe that, have a feeling, and faith in it, then sure, you needn't bother.

quote:

---

Can you prove that those stories did in fact come from other religions? If you cannot believe the Bible because man physically wrote it then you cannot believe any history unless you were alive to see it happen. All of history is misrepresented by those who wrote it so that means all the historical stories we know of must be false.

---

(Not necessarily false, but not necessarily accurate or honest.)

That would be my point, reinforcing my argument, what affect does it have on yours?

quote:

---

So no then. Does this then mean that you desired to kill, rape, and steal?

---

Not all of the above but I had been prone to theft and other dishonest activities. I desired to get all I could without consideration of how my actions impacted others. I had also made up a hit list and drawn plans to exact revenge on those of my school mates who made my life horrible. But I have since revised my thought process to become a productive member of society.

quote:

---

but the conclusions and ideas you associate with those experiences.

---

When you have my experiences you can let me know what conclusions you draw from them.

quote:

---

This could be considered an answer if I were you and knew what you were talking about, I am not, please answer to the enlightenment of others if you are going to bother.

---

As I have already stated many times my life experiences have brought me to a knowledge of a God. The God that I am aware of is the God who claims to have inspired the writing of the Bible therefore I believe His words because I believe in Him.

quote:

---

That would be my point, reinforcing my argument, what affect does it have on yours?

---

My point is you cannot prove or disprove the validity of the Bible because you were not present during each of its translations so you can not say what, if any of it, is subject to error. Besides when you read the Bible you will see the complex literary structure of the entire book as a whole and of specific stories therein. If some parts had been left out or change or what have you how then would the over all structure be so cohesive?

quote:

---

When you have my experiences you can let me know what conclusions you draw from them.

---

Don't be an ass, do not think your experiences so unique no one can relate.

Your conclusions are not your own, they are those of others you are simply choosing to align with instead of doing the leg work of figuring things out for yourself.

quote:

---

The God that I am aware of is the God who claims to have inspired the writing of the Bible therefore I believe His words because I believe in Him.

---

This is crucial yet you undermine it and my desire for clarification. And it grows tiresome.

The God you are aware of? As presented by your uninfluenced enlightenment or by the description of others?

The God who claims to have inspired the Bible? Has God made claims to you? Or perhaps the claims of others that you have decided to believe what they tell you?

Do not act like I don't have a good reason for speaking as if you are not being clear or making perfect sense. I don't bring it up to insult you or your chosen beliefs.

quote:

---

If some parts had been left out or change or what have you how then would the over all structure be so cohesive?

---

It's called an editor, it's a common profession.

quote:

---

My point is you cannot prove or disprove the validity of the Bible because you were not present during each of its translations

---

Can you? Then your point excludes any reason in your faith in it untill you verify with all honesty that God personally expressed to you the accuracy of his words as portrayed in the Bible, a personal verification since I'm quite certain you cannot substantiate evidence of it

[/quote]when you read the Bible you will see the complex literary structure of the entire book as a whole and of specific stories therein. If some parts had been left out or change or what have you how then would the over all structure be so cohesive?[quote]

Read the Bible find evidence that proves that it is missing text or contains an error which compromises the story line and then tell me that I am wrong.

quote:

---

Read the Bible find evidence that proves that it is missing text or contains an error which compromises the story line and then tell me that I am wrong.

---

A cohesive story line does not validate a story, that is a rediculous line of logic.

You are wrong because you claim it true when you cannot possibly do so, just like everyone else, even according to yourself.

Like Decius said, claiming it possible is fine, whereas arguing it as factual reality is indefensible and pointless, nor is it needed to have faith in the concepts and morals behind your religion.

Which is what we were saying earlier.

quote:

---

Your conclusions are not your own, they are those of others you are simply choosing to align with instead of doing the leg work of figuring things out for yourself.

---

So what if other people share my conclusions. When you write a test usually more than one person comes up with the same right answer does this mean that everybody copied each other's work?

quote:

---

The God you are aware of? As presented by your uninfluenced enlightenment or by the description of others?

---

The God that has been presented by uninfluenced enlightenment. And if others have that same description of God does it mean that it isn't a correct one? Is it so unthinkable that more than one person has the same correct answer?

quote:

---

The God who claims to have inspired the Bible? Has God made claims to you?

---

God speaks to us through the Holy Spirit and through His word the Bible. The Holy Spirit has told me that the Bible is in fact the word of God. He does not speak in audible words but the message is clear enough. This is my experience and I am sorry if you cannot relate to it but it is the only way I know how to express myself.

quote:

---

It's called an editor, it's a common profession.

---

Very well maybe someone has doctored it up that doesn't change my experience of being informed supernaturally that the Bible is God's word.

quote:

---

nor is it needed to have faith in the concepts and morals behind your religion.

---

But it is needed as a reference point.

It is needed as a reference point? A reference point is needed?

Try saying it like this.

"The bible is a helpful, welcomed, and appreciated reference point to me, and many others according to them." Or even, "I like others feel the need for such a reference point."

To express it as such a need delves into the aforementioned unhealthy degree of dependence which often results in a nasty side effect that many Christians or devout religious people suffer, along with people in general. That is irrational fear and defensiveness that can manifest in all the negatives you are trying to avoid by having this as a chosen guide, faith, or "belief".

Do you have faith and belief in the Bible, or the Bible's message?