Please read

HELLO EVERYBODY!!. Ha. Forewarn: I was off to bed...and just had to get up because of this concept/idea which popped in my head.

..(recently)-after i had wriitten without having time to revise these notes, i was offered a liquid in a beer can..(which wasnt beer). So i will be buzzing..or am buzzing.

and anyway. Please read with the utmost accession..or w.e.
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Its because we know so little...that we are free.

When you are born..you know nothing-you _are_ free


Its because our thoughts are influenced...but only because we allow them to be.

It isn't because our actions are influenced..but because we allow them to be.


If we 'knew' more than we already do...then we wouldn't be free to choose.

Our opportunities and choices would be limited.



Say you choose to act on something...because your influenced by something(other than yourself..for example..(which is impossible)

You would then, thereafter, be existing past your moment of action..And that moment or action would then influence you from then on..

Because you don't know the outcome of any given situation(which hasn't already occurred)...the outcome develops infinite possibilities.

We wouldnt have a choice if we knew.- and we choose because we dont know.


Every thought, influences your actions. Every action...influences your thoughts. --because the result of any action taken by you or someone else...is unknown-...you can never truly know more than what you already do.


Lets say 'thought' raised your finger..

Lets say..a thought or conclusion was drawn by you..AFTER you had risen you finger.


Then,(before your raised your finger) you did not have this thought influence...but because thought drove you to move or alter a part of existence(namely yourself)..you now have this new thought influence.

Which can change your p,o.v for life-or can be pushed aside to never be examined again.


We are influenced..but only because we choose to be.



If there are two parts of the human make-up-. -Mind and Body.--Physical and obvious aspects of the human person...then these two are all we know. Then this means..we have options.

Its get kinda tricky..pay attention-lol


If these two exist only because there is the other...than it would seem that we are trapped. And exist without options.

A huge circle of infinite...infinites..

One influencing the other..influencing the other...and so on so forth.-back and forth. Carrying on..and on.



But wouldn't infinites...be freedom? Wouldn't it leave.. Choice?

an infinite number of solutions-to an infinite number of problems?////

infinite possibilities.

any questions asked.... any answers given.

Your conclusions are just thisß'yours'.-you've chosen to present a problem.-therefore you will choose to present an answer.


Its because we are limited..that we are free.


Back and forth.. Free to form ideas, opinions,..draw conclusions...


And never really know what the outcome of any given situation will bring.


Its not because we're stuck with these two things, (the mind and Body,)
That we are trapped.

its because we use them,--which makes us free.


and our ignorance permits us our freedom.

IM going to try and simplify and elaborate.


Its because we are confined to our minds and bodies-(one influencing the other and so on infinitaly.)

that we will never escape "choice". and the fact that we "cant" predict the future- is the reason why we choose,


Our minds and bodies are what "preoccupy" us so to speak.- infinitaly asking questions- and continually finding an answer to its own presented problems. Which is wonderful..

Because it is the "choice" to ask an infinite amount of questions-or draw an infinite amount of conclusions-which makes us soo free.( and the reason there are infinite questions to ask..is because both your mind and body become infinately influenced...so long as they exist)(and one cannot exist without the other)

Infinity is..well, its infinite. and how could you be bound by infinite possibilities?

free will is not knowing the direct consequence of our actions, so that every choice imaginable is on the same level of conception. ---->as it is allowed.

Its really quite beautiful.. limited..but not so limited.-
Limited to believe that existence is a gift...but 'only" because existence is all there is.

Though we have a choice of life an death- you must first exist to make this choice.

and its the freewill that is a gift. Application of freewill-yeilds infinite possibilities.


its because we are confined to our minds and bodies infinately influencing the other..that we will never escape choice. Never escape free will.

Trapped by free will.-thats an interesting concept.

i'm gonna go lie down in a darkened room for a couple of hours. ill answer a post when ive recovered from reading all that

but what if, as many evolutionary biologists are beginning to suspect, mind and body are one? one does not influence the other because there is no other? there is no circle of action and thought, because they are one and the same? action does not create thought which does not create choice and back again infinitely because they are all occuring simultaneously? how do you think that would effect the notions of free will and determinism?

dude i think ur drunk

lol im joking. um actually its weird. sometimes i think determinism that everyhting is all cause and effect no matter what we do, everyhting is already laied out and we really have no free choice becasue of this but then again i think that within cause and effect there is room for choice. "philosophy example":::: water is running down a mountain. we all now it HAS TO get to the bottom there is no way it could just stay there or go up so it HAS to get to the bottom BUT what if it chooses the path on which it would like to follow. go thorugh sum rocks n stuff u know.
who knows maybe the mind and body are the same. the mind is ultimate and permanent wheres the body is just a vessel. we'll never know. who knows if they can co-esist without eachother.
its all very wierd to me. but hey we're bornwe live, we dit and rot. rot and die. whatever way u wanna look at it.

That is an interesting idea..

but if they were one in the same..than influences would still exist.

i was more or less demonstrating the contrast between action and thought.

and i dont believe those two are the same..- though thought is an action..not all action requires thought.

the concept of mind and body-(thought/mental and physical) of being "one" may have come from the realization that one cannot exist without the other.

it somehow seems to be quite a paradox. If in fact they were "one"..than it would seem that "free will" exists within itself.. inexplicably. As it would inside of us. Given we dont know what the future will bring..we are limited or trapped in that sense.for every action there is a reaction, there is cause and effect. Existing so infinately past our very own existence..that we couldnt decipher such a thing to the extent of which would be comprable or understandable.)-- but infinite in our choices and possibilities.

if we knew the future-choice would not exist. Because in knowing..no matter what choice you make, you understand its outcome. and if infact you percieved that you could somehow alter its outcome..it would not be the true future.

We are limited to our existence...and our existence is inadequate to decipher "cause and effect" to such an extent as to eliminate "freewill'.

K, @ekimup theres this saying the more u say the more nonsense it makes, true. But thats just so next time u dont start by saying we r trapped and end by saying we have two choices (body and mind)

First ask your self, what freewill is to you ? Many ppl will answer "To have a choice", meaning do do something atleast two different ways ways or to be more precise - Free will is the philosophical doctrine that holds that our choices are ultimately up to us. Conversely, an unfree action would be "up to" something else. The phrase "up to us" is vague, and, just like free will itself, admits of a variety of interpretations. Because of this vagueness, the usefulness of the concept of free will is questioned by some. Several logically independent questions can be asked about free will. Then ask "what is choice" ? You will get the answer - One of the possible responses that a paerson might select.
K and now imagine if we didnt have the body or the mind, would we still be stuck in this cycle ? Ofcourse we would, because its not like there a like, the mind does all the bodys actions and it redefragments the information got from this action.

Back to the topic on influence. What would u do and how would to evolve if u wouldnt be influenced ? And its always your choice to do something, it has been already proven that you cant be influenced to do something by light influence, ok bu putting a knofe to your neck yes, but not by saying or actions see or heard.

Easier to sum up, freewill comes with responsibility to other ppl so they also have freewill. And to desipher couse and effect try to find the result.

i think there ha got to be some differentiation between body and mind. animals have much less developed minds than humans, so ideas such as lgic or numeracy, even language are purely human concepts. however animals still have a choice of how to react in certain situations, although their responses are often controlled by the body, in that they are an instinct rahter than a decision. Free will in humans is purely the ability provided by a more evolved mind, to overide the basic animal instincts and apply logical thought to the way that we deal with things. For example it is possible for a human to talk their way out of a situation which they feel threatened by, for example some kind of fight, as well as the instincts of fight or flight. an animal however only has the latter 2. The only choice they have is between the two, and this is decided purely by natural instinct of "that other animal is bigger therefore run" or "i cannot run, therefore fight"

--------------------yess- the wordiness is quite unbecoming. I had the concept but it was too large for me to fully interpret into sufficient wording.(at the time...i was trying to go to bed.-so) i unfortunately documented my thought process..and it doesnt seem to sufficiently present this concept..

ghetto school- its because of our body and mind(as one..or seperate) that we exist. This was my point.

as for our actions being "up to" something else..the something else may be cause and effect.

what im saying is though it may appear is if we are by products of existence and cause and effect..does not mean we are not freewill.

also-because cause and effect exist-we could not possibly know(utilizing our existence..(mind and body)) what the effect of any choice will be.

so we are free to interpret.-and use out interpretations in carrying out..an action-- per say..-a choice.

basically because we exist.-we cant escape choice. or "freewill". freewill is the ability to choose. if we had only one option-than it's not choice. Freewill wouldnt exist.

this has also..found its way in our choice to exceed physical necessity.- unlike animals. Animals exist to do what they are intended to do..correctly within nature. As in, beavers gather logs for a home...Bears hibernate. Nature in existence, has a perfect cycle without any human influence whatsoever. nature only really becomes tainted when we apply our interpretive decisions to interfere with it as we wish. (i dont claim to mean that we see it as tainted..but it infact will cease to exist)

Freewill is the ability to destroy and alter a balanced cycle. -and only something as ignorant as ourselves would/and could do so.

even if it could by empirically shown that an infinate number of possibilities, and thus choices, exist, it would still not begin to prove that human beings are free to chose from among them. just because we have the cognative capacity to conceptualize a myrad of alternate senarios when faced with a decision, does not prove that we are free to choose any save the one we eventually will. however, free will and determinism being states of mind, one coud say that even if the choices made are the only choices that one could ever make, they are still 'free' to make those choices. as with all metaphysical quandraries, it eventually degenerates from an analysis of ideas to a question of semantics.

If there are "choices" than it is choice.(the ability to choose is freewill).
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'choose any save the one we eventually will"
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which is why we cant tell the future.-and why the future exists only as reference to a time ahead of the present.



also..lets pretend that the words implication and overall context can give us a significant definition..of the word itself. thanks.

so are your previous posts suggesting the existance of 'free will' as an ideological concept, or as a word? and if your position is the former, then what, exactly, do you mean by the term "free will'?

as both-given i used the "word".

and given it is both. Ideologically-it can be accepted.

people questions the idea of "freewill"(which is the implication the word makes.) so i was contructing a formal writing to explain a concept that came to me at a very strange time.

I surely hope there a few words in the context that you will need explained to you. But freewill is the idea that we control ourselves.-its the idea that we can choose. If we didnt have freewill..we would not have choices.-i mean "freewill" as the ability to choose.

we can predict the future... thats what dreams are, you must first learn to interpret your dreams, i have 5-10 dreams a month that happen EXACTLY within 2 years and that just freaky, then the rest of them i have to think about what they mean, and no matter what i do to stop them, what i interpret almost always happens.


Note for fun: we are always living in the past. it takes time for the light to reach our eyes even if its a fraction of a second. so when we see our finger raise, it was already raised a fraction of a second ago

ofcourse..but you were "living" in the past. Your now in the present..where your brain/eye can see the light and your finger.

Thats interesting. Start a dream thread somewhere. I'd be interested in more you have to say..