To The SwiftBoat Vets For Truth - Page 2

"Vietnam was bad, worse than Iraq. Because of technology, soldiers having cell phones and such, the brass is not able to get away with the things they got away with in Vietnam - Enough said, thanks for asking though."

Actually, according to many front line Iraq soldiers they say that they basically were told to kill everything because the enemy would be diguising themselves and everywhere, and so thats what they did and often do.

Maybe its somewhat better now, but honestly with the control of info to America they can and are claimed to be doing anything.

So don't count out the horrors of this war just yet. And of course don't forget the accounted for torture that is no where near random or isolated.

Vietnam is history - but I just found this

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WASHINGTON - A decorated Marine Corps general said, "It's fun to shoot some people" and poked fun at the manhood of Afghans as he described the wars U.S. troops are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.

His boss, the commandant of the Marine Corps, said Thursday that the comments reflected "the unfortunate and harsh realities of war" but that the general has been asked to watch his words in public.

Lt. Gen. James Mattis, a career infantry officer who is now in charge of developing better ways to train and equip Marines, made the comments Tuesday while speaking to a forum in San Diego.

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It's Ugly - How can someone who calls themselves a Christian, a follower of Jesus, support such things?

"But there is no comparison. Bush got into the guard because of his Daddy, he could have volunteered like Kerry, but instead he stayed home and partied all night, smoking dope and drinking beers while his classmates were dieing in Vietnam. Kerry on the other hand volunteered to go to nam. "

And you also know that the moon is made of swiss cheese, right? You know all of this how? Please name one witness to these events? Just one. And like I said, althoug you must have missed it, Bush like Kerry joined the Guard. Thats right Kerry did not volunteer but joined the Naval Guard. The difference is that his unit was called up and Bush's unit was not.

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"You are basing your information on hearsay as much as anyone else unless you held those documents in your hand. . "

The difference is that I admitted it. I do not know if Kerry really received a dishonorable discharge - he refuses to release his records - I do not know if Kerry really falsified reports so that he could get medals so that he could get an early release - I wasnt there - but I can name names of people who were there who do make such claims.

"Thats right Kerry did not volunteer but joined the Naval Guard. The difference is that his unit was called up and Bush's unit was not."

And again, you know this because?

"but I can name names of people who were there who do make such claims."

I can name names of people from within the government and intelligence community that say Bush and his gang were behind 9/11, do you want to go there?

"And again, you know this because? "

I know that because it was in his official biography - duh.

"I can name names of people from within the government and intelligence community that say Bush and his gang were behind 9/11, do you want to go there?"

I would LOVE to go there! Please go there. Please reveal to us your true beliefs.

I really can't see how anyone can reasonably believe Bush served his country in the military. I mean, it doesn't really matter. My point is from what we know, Bush took an easier way out. He served in the Texan National Guard, did not fight because of this and did the bare minimum, if that.

This is from what I understand, and its not important, its the past. What's more important is that Bush, immediately prior to his presidency, showed himself completely ignorant of foreign affairs.

DT,

Come on dude. Bush served his country in the military. Bush did not take an easier way out. He joined the Texas Air National Guard and flew fighter jets. He did not do the bare minimum but during his first 2 years put more hours in than almost any other pilot in his unit. Furthermore, Bush joined a unit that is incredibly risky and was considered a natural and excellent pilot. I understand people may hate Bush but theres no reason to trash him wrongly or abuse the truth.

Was Bush a war hero? Absolutely not but he sure the hell served his country honorably.

Also, just prior to his presidency Bush did not show himself completely ignorant of foreign affairs. What makes you say that? Because he couldn't tell you the names of some two bit leaders? Is that really your standard?

Do nothing and be drafted or volunteer and possibly get a better deal. If you could get into the guard, most likely you would not go to nam. Everybody knew that. I think five different people told me to try to get into the guard when I got older so that I wouldn't have to go to nam, it was common knowledge.

Clinton was in the Guard, a lot of your Senators and Congressman served in the Guard during nam. I don't believe it was a criminal act to avoid the horrors of nam, Nobody would belittle Bush for it, not until someone decided to slam Kerry who did NOT avoid nam, but volunteered for it.

To judge someone falsely is a CRIME. Kerry has been judged falsely. The history books will tell it like it is. What he did was a braver thing than any of us here have ever done.

He threw his purple hearts over the wall along with thousands of other vets. He should have left them purple hearts there - that he did wrong, and it came back to haunt him. But what he did during the Vietnam war was heroic.

Vietnam vets have always been the bad guys for going to nam - it was never fair - and Kerry is no exception.

"I would LOVE to go there! Please go there. Please reveal to us your true beliefs."

What I meant was believing what everyone tells you. Which no one does, but they believe selectively, because there is conflicting opinions and facts.

You can find out for yourself about who says what, I've learned not to waste my breath, you've already shown that you are out to argue and defend for a "belief".

I have no concrete beliefs, because I know there is quite credible conflicting information. Look up and listen to ex and current CIA and FBI and other intelligence community members. They are the source of Bush's information, he listens to them, sort of, so should we, sort of.

When these types of dissenters put their careers and reputations and even lives on the line to say something is wrong, we should take it very seriously, because it usually isn't pretty and usually works out badly for them.

There are 3 known differing versions of Bush's military record, this should mean something to you. I agree we should not be too quick to judge, please take that into account yourself as well.

One way I've heard it told also is that Bush was late in line signing for the guard as well, and was pushed ahead of thousands of applicants like many other politicians kids. Don't underestimate the good ol' boy system of politics and corporate businessmen, of which Bush's are both.

Do you or do you not believe that the 9/11 terrorists were Al Qaeda? Or do you believe they were CIA or Mossad?

"There are 3 known differing versions of Bush's military record, this should mean something to you."

Means absolutely nothing to me - Bush received an honorable discharge and that is the only judgment that matters.

"One way I've heard it told also is that Bush was late in line signing for the guard as well, and was pushed ahead of thousands of applicants like many other politicians kids. Don't underestimate the good ol' boy system of politics and corporate businessmen, of which Bush's are both."

The head of the Texas Guard flatly and absolutely denies this. Since I have no reason to believe he is lying I choose to believe he is telling the truth.

"Do nothing and be drafted or volunteer and possibly get a better deal. If you could get into the guard, most likely you would not go to nam. Everybody knew that. I think five different people told me to try to get into the guard when I got older so that I wouldn't have to go to nam, it was common knowledge."

Is that why Kerry joined the Guard?

I believe that the answer is one in the same, CIA helped for Al-Qaeda and Osama was a CIA asset which is not a secret either, I think I even saw that mentioned on Fox, same as Saddam.

Just like CIA and Pakistani ISI created the Taliban, ever notice how many friends and allies become the evil of the world that we end up taking out?

Think anyone might develop trust issues?

The memory hole is a problem.

About who denies what, just keep in mind that people deny his denial, he would most likely be in a posistion of culpability if any of the special treatment that was rampant was true.

People lie, especially when they know they are in the wrong, and there is a such thing as honest people, the facts are hard to determine, what we need to keep in mind is political and self preserving motivations.

Bush used his dad's connections. Did a little here, a little there, but basically nothing.

Kerry actually fought. Its true, we haven't his record. So we don't know exactly what's up. He did get some medals at least. Kerry would have to do something REALLY bad for me to respect his service less then Bush's.

But this is all details... Was Bush completely ignorant of foreign affairs immediately prior to his presidency? From interviews, all I can say is: yes.

And just to throw some firewood on the debate: "The unit in which Bush served was known as a "Champagne unit," where the scions of the Texas aristocracy could avoid combat duty with relatively few demands on their time. Serving in that unit with Bush were the sons of three prominent men: Democratic Governor John Connally, Democratic Senator and future Vice-Presidential nominee Lloyd Bentsen, and Republican Senator John Tower, as well as seven members of the Dallas Cowboys professional football club, and a man named James R. Bath, who would become a longtime friend of Bush's."
According to WIki.

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Is that why Kerry joined the Guard?

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GOP: KERRY WENT TO VIETNAM TO AVOID SERVING IN ALABAMA NATIONAL GUARD

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http://www.borowitzreport.com/archive_rpt.asp?rec=933

Kerry just had to go to nam - he just couldn't stay away.

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Was Bush completely ignorant of foreign affairs immediately prior to his presidency?

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Kerry was ignorant too. But after going to nam, he quickly wised up and became the sole person mostly responsible for ending nam. He told it like it was, and a lot of other vets didn't like that. It was political suicide that no one who ever wanted to be president of the United States would ever attempt. Yet, he almost did just that and has been the encouragement of thousands of others to stand for what is right.

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I am kinda angry at Kerry. He didn't fight as hard as he could have and gave up to soon.

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I still am - but I'm also a member of veterans for Kerry. Whatever he has done today, has not undone what he did back then, and I will defend it always. I was young, but not so young that I didn't know what was going on. Thousands of vets supported him, few would challenge him back then, and should they, they were quickly scoffed off. But we now have a new generation who was not there and find it hard to believe that their country was actually wrong.