are emotions what define human beings? - Page 3

Ahh one of the favorites of philosophers -chaos v/s free will.

I still think that free will is impossible. The 'choices' we appear to make are actually a reaction to our given situation by who we are, and the culmination of experience. You draw on your experience to make the choices, but you never actually chose your experience ( except in thoughtmani....'s theory. )

I still see your theory as slightly flawed IMO because we make choices based on who we are, but we don't get to choose who we are. <---(even at a 'soul' level)

If you think you choose who you are, then who were you before you made your first ever choice. <----What 'caused' you to make your first choice the way you did? You CAUSED it. But 'you' couldn't make 'you' before your first choice. So someone or something made you and CAUSED your first choice and every choice after that.

I do however like your theory in 'what is soul?' Things may work that way, but I still can't see the choice part as anything more than the illusion of control based on what I tried and probably failed to explain above.

This forum is great when it is intelligent and respectful. If only my communication skillz could keep up with that.

The added question is what makes up a personality or self in the first place to be making any decisions considered to be choice, like what vegeto was saying about where a soul or self comes from and its original direction, personality, and how much choice is in that. Like the idea of reactionary choice, but there are so many factors that I think none of it is that simple, well the influenced or reactionary choice is quite complex and basically involves absolutely everything one is exposed to ever, but its more than that too, genes, habits, addictions and chemical imbalances, which all further the notion of less control of choice than most think.

When a person is presented with a choice, especially one that has some fairly certain outcomes, this is where choice is more of a possible reality, decisions that are not life and death and perhaps in preparation of something, adds to the case of choice.

Interesting. That's a concept that I hadn't considered before... who were we all at the very beginning, when we were created? My first thought is that we were all created as equal souls with equal potential and equal possibilities. Or some say that we all have a 'destiny' laid out for us. If that's the case then we began as a soul with a particular destiny and it was up to us, with the help of our 'counsel' to create the scenario in which we could fulfill that or not. But that doesn't support the 'free will' idea, which I, for one, believe this is a free will existence. So to put those two ideas together, we were all created as equal beings with equal potential and chose one of the laid out destinies and went from there. All of the 'destiny choices' at the time were positive ones but somewhere along the way this existence (the humans living on earth existence) took a turn for the worst and some (probably most) of us lost our original goal.

Here's an idea I was presented with a few days ago that explains some intricacies of the bigger picture. And I am still researching and perculating, so to speak, this idea to know where exactly I sit with it. But here it goes...

All of creation is vast and beyond any of our comprehension, that I know. If we think of creation as compared to a business, organization or government, it has divisions, branch managers, etc. The 'god' that religions refer to perhaps isn't the 'ultimate creator', it is, perhaps, the 'branch manager of the free will division', within which we all were created to be a part. So from that perspective, we are all taking part in a 'free will experiment'.

Now here's an idea that may be pretty far out there but earth isn't the only place free will beings can choose to be. And earth is an anomaly in terms of it being one of the examples of how the experiment can go wrong. Think about it. We crucify those who come here to teach us about love. WHAT??? We're messed! So we, as souls, can choose one of the many free will existences out there, all 'human' existences but not all on earth.

Anyway that's kind of going off track. Like I said I'm still playing with that idea to see where I sit with it.

So back to where it all began. We were created as a 'free will being' with all the possibilities and potential laid out and we, from there, made our first choice and began our existence.

And here's another possibility that I have been considering lately which supports the idea that we don't have so much control over our choices is this as we were meant to have: Because earth is such an anomaly, such a uniquely messed up place, (compared to all the other free will existence possibilities we have) our choices have become somewhat limited. If we think in terms of people operating on certain frequencies, the more negative thoughts and actions we represent, the lower our frequency, the more positive thoughts and actions, the higher the frequency; we have to be at a certain frequency in order to 'transcend' this existence and, because the frequency on the planet's surface (especially where there is a higher concentration of people) is so low, many of us are 'stuck' here and can't get out. Robert Monroe described it this way: Imagine you're running on a beach, about to enter a life on earth, all of a sudden you hit the water, it slows you down and the entire life here is like trying to run through water, and to get out we have to be going as fast as we were on the beach, obviously that makes it quite difficult... But the bottom line is, we still chose to come here, knowing how messed up it was so it still was our will.

I'll leave it at that. It's all so mysterious and 'unknown', I love the exploration of it more than anything.

Here's another possibility or furtherance of the above possibility...

Above the suggestion is that we were created to be a part of the "free will experiment". What if we have chosen to live within the free will existence for whatever reason, growth, learning, or as some kind of "test". That would lend itself to the idea that the soul that we inhabit as human beings is not our ultimate soul or source of being. We have adopted this "free will soul" so that we can live within the free will existence. But that we all have a soul "above" the human version that is part of an existence that is not a free will existence. Such an existence to me is beyond my comprehension because what are we without choice? Not to say that it isn't possible, it's just beyond my comprehension. I suppose that could be where we living our "higher" destiny, the one we have been "assigned".

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Originaly posted by thoughtmani...
"that we were all created as equal souls with equal potential and equal possibilities"
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1.What would CAUSE identical souls to make unidentical 'choices?'
2.If the souls are not created identical, -how could you 'choose' your differences in the creation of you?

Read both of those, carfuly, several times, and do the math.

Ah... "identical" wasn't my word of choice... "equal" was. And although they are very close in meaning, they're not "identical" LOL.

Identical is "exactly alike; duplicate"

Equal is "the same in nature, value or quality; evenly matched"

1. covers everthing identical
2. covers everthing not, which would include equal but not identical

Identical is when two things are the same.

Equal is when two things are the same for a certain value.

So number 2 question still remains Vegeto?... I'm not sure I understand the question then.

"2.If the souls are not created identical, -how could you 'choose' your differences in the creation of you?"

They're not created identical but they are created equal. I think we both understand that point (not that we agree on it but we understand it) So why then would it not be likely to be able to choose an experience from this point forward?... Sorry if I'm missing something.

Equal, but not identical. Then you and I were created as equals. But since we are not identical, we would have differences. The differences between us then must be the defining factor in the differences in our choices. We could not choose our differences, that would require self-creation, which to the best of my knowledge, is impossible. Therefore, whoever or whatever created our differences is responsible for our choosing process differences. Therefore whoever or whatever created us is responsible for our choices. We choose the way we were designed to. So it is not us that really chooses.

How about looking at us (at the beginning) as two clean slates with equal potential and an infinite amount of options or opportunities laid out on a table in front of us. We choose one of the many available and whatever happens from that moment forward is our creation.

So, whatever or whomever created us created us as blank canvasses so to speak and it was up to us what to put on it.

anybody played fable yet?
the game allows you to develop your character through your choices.
you can turn into the most evil or just ruler by the end of the game as well as a result of- your choices.

picture the designers of the game starting it off at the bottom of the trunk of a tree. as you progress in the game you begin to climb up and follow a path that eventually brings you to the end. there are many different opportunities to reach the top, almost innumerable when compared to what you began with....

but the fact remains you went one way and now at the top you look down and see all those other ignored choices that were always there, but didn't get your attention.
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