Truth

I think the trouble with all the debates we have here is that I think we disagree on what it takes to prove something is true.
So what does it take to show something is true? And if we can't show that, what does it take to show something is the most likely?

What is necessary? Empirical evidence, consistency or conviction for example?
I think we need to make this clear between us.

the closest to truth that we can get is stating equalities.
1=1
2=2
1+1=2, because 1 and then 1 more is the same thing as 2. so, if 2=2, then 1+1=2. these statements of equality are the basis of all mathematics, and that is why we see math as the ultimate truth.
bachelor = bachelor
bachelor = unmarried man
unmarried man = bachelor
unmarried man = unmarried man
all of these statements are true based on equality. one thing equals another, despite how the word representing it looks, like 1 and 1 is 2, despite how the numerical code representing it looks.
empirical evidence is next down the line, because there are no solid equality statements, just observations. its much harder, and perhaps even philosophically impossible to absolutely prove empirical evidence in the same way that math is true.
but what makes it so that we have a law like an object must equal itself? it is a basic physical law, and it is taken for granted, but the universe rests on basic laws such as this.

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but what makes it so that we have a law like an object must equal itself? it is a basic physical law, and it is taken for granted, but the universe rests on basic laws such as this.

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Well I would certainly have to disagree. 'The universe operates on basic laws such as this' whether or not, we percieve there operation.

there are no "absolute truths" ... at least this is what many people believe, so... all we do is kill time basically

What would happen if:
Something happened in the past, and one person killed all those who witnessed it and then gave false information and it made the history books. Once he dies, there is no one who knows what really happened, so does that mean that this false information then becomes our truth ?

yep, you got it. and im sure its happend on more than one instance... maybe not that exact scenario but similar things im sure.

if you read history books about a specific occurance in the past, then you go to another country and read books about the exact same occurance... more often than not, you will find some striking differences.

Warrior X - That's why I think sometimes a belief is simply a 'best guess'. In fact, virtually all our beliefs are best guesses, only after a while we simply take them for granted.

Wyote - Shame we can't apply math's absolute truth to the real world all the time eh?

I'm not watching no debates. I think I like Nadar the best, but I know he will never become president so I'm not going to waste me vote. For what its worth, Clinton's only success was doing what the Republicans told him to do. Everybodey seems to forget that. I'm going to try my best not to get caught into those, right/wrong, black/white, left/white issues. Some say I stand on the fence post and that is worse because Jesus say's so. I don't believe in everything they say Jesus said. I know for a fact that I can see everything much more clearly from the fence post.

Let's see I take 1 mole of oxygen & 2 moles and add them together & I get 1 mole of water.
2 + 1 = 1

you take one unit of one thing and add it to a unit of another thing, or in this case, a unit of one thing added to two units of another thing, and you get one new thing.
this is like saying 1+2 = 3. three is one thing, is it not? sure, but this one thing is composed of a bunch of ones. and a molecule of water is composed of these single ones. a mole of water is not a mole of water at all, but a mole of oxygen and a mole of hydrogen and another mole of hydrogen. the water exists only in your mind.

As many have implied the believe that only the reality of our world (realm, dimension, dimensional matrix) has physical form, 1 apple = another apple means we have 2 apples.

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the closest to truth that we can get is stating equalities.
1=1
2=2
1+1=2, because 1 and then 1 more is the same thing as 2. so, if 2=2, then 1+1=2. these statements of equality are the basis of all mathematics, and that is why we see math as the ultimate truth.

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Is based on our sense perceptions of the nature of our existence. Our existence results from our perception of the molecular reality. The atomic theory states that our world is made up of a realively few atoms which form the substance (molecules) of are existence: Water is a distinct substance with different characteristics than oil; we breathe in oxygen molecules and exhale carbon dioxide molecules; if we breathe in pure water vapor, we are in a big hurt.
http://www.captaincynic.com/thread.php3/thrdid=13596-u-frmid=21-u-page=1
#23355
Therefore water existence is more than just in our minds?

math is not an absolute truth, it is a theory.

Math is a collection of internally consistent systems.
Math itself is rarely true in the sense that it can apply to our universe.
That's physic's job : to apply some of math's systems to the real universe.

Math is no theory though, it is not 'wrong' because it doesn't claim to be true, it claims to be consistent.
The implication is that a mathematical system applies to our universe (if no such system exists, then the universe would be inconsistent!).

Examples of this are several mathematical systems of geometry. One system states that parallel lines all pass by the same point, another that all parallel lines never pass by the same point. Both systems work (in that they are internally consistent), but only one can apply to our universe (parallel lines never pass by the same point).

Hence only one of these systems is 'true' in that it applies to our universe, but it doesn't mean the other one is false, rather, it is fiction.

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Examples of this are several mathematical systems of geometry. One system states that parallel lines all pass by the same point, another that all parallel lines never pass by the same point

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What are these geometries by name agin? I thought that parallel lines did not intersect.

the molecules of water may be "real" in that they interact with things and create things with different properties than other substances, but as far as them being unitary, that is an illusion. they are all combinations of smaller things, which in turn are combinations of smaller things. if there is one unitary thing in the universe, then everything must be composed of these. im no physicist, so i don't know the details of how it all works or anything.
and if math is wrong sometimes, well, damn. thats crazy. i personally dont think an object (or a number) can ever not equal itself; maybe if math is wrong sometimes it has to do with another aspect of it than this basic rule.
i feel kind of uncomfortable talking about this stuff because i always got bad grades in math and science, so if i'm way off i claim ignorance.