Was Christ really resurrected? - Page 4

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And these men all went to different parts of the country telling everyone the same account in a very detailed way {Some remembering details different than, but within the same accuracy and precision]...and stood willingly b4 angry mobs and said...."I will die a believing man....!!!"

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Let me elaborate this....since most ppl have attention spans that do not follow lengthy details. I wanted to explain in full in another post....

ALL the Gospels are accurate and similar.
BUT, as examples...Matthew used the Old Testament to show HOW CHRIST fulfilled all the details of the prophets.

Luke used details about the senators in the times...and the census.

Mark did not elaborate as much and told pinpoint accounts vs showing in greater detail.

John gave details to what Christ said, and HOW He showed He was God by word.

etc etc...

BUT all accounts are true and the same.
NONE 'discredit the other'

"John gave details to what Christ said, and HOW He showed He was God by word."

Again since you bring things up out of context, I'm not sure if I'm following, feel free to let me know, but, what does this mean, and how does one prove with words?

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You would think, but look what happened.

Everything you just said, was speculation, assumption, and flat out wrong.

Everyday people fight for different sides of equally witnessed and accounted events of both minor and major proportions. Including that which we are discussing.

In one post you tend to repeatedly contradict yourself on the same points such as man's innacuracy, bias, and lies, and then of exact detail corroborations that somehow still have minor differences etc.

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How is the same detailed Old Testament speculation...the same Exodus is written on the walls of ancient cities...

IF we know how MEN can not repeat a story the same...BUT in every detail the same story is written in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Christian scrolls, and the ancient walls...how is this proof that it is fiction or non fiction?

AGAIN...because men WHO KNEW GOD, SAW GOD, AND FEARED GOD...wrote it in exacting details...painfully so.
FOR it says NOTHING must be changed...and the Bible {Word} would last for all time.
God said it...and it is still true today...the Bible still exists...for all time.

IN fact, the Jews had to sing each verse they wrote.

NOTE....The Old Testament still has remained the same through out history.....NOT one scripture was changed.

{Only exception is in todays modern world...where few Fear God}

Christianity has ONE keeper to the exact accounts...The Catholic Church.

Every other christian denomination has made their changes... starting with Luther..who removed Jewish text, and added..."In faith alone"

Then we had seen a spiralling of this same disrespect for the Bible and the original church today. BUT the Catholic Church still stands...same doctrine.

ALL men think they have the power to discern the doctrine according to how they see it.

Big example is JW's have rewrote the majority of scripure..
read the New World Translation...their Bible...it excludes sentences where Christ inferred He was God....or where Thomas said at seeing Christ after He rose..
"My Lord and My God"...in addressing Jesus.

WHO wants this confusion??

IT is not just man, for all claim they have the truth in scripture ALONE {Without tradition}...it is a cunning spirit who also knows scripture who aids the new mistranslations.

I showed you how history shows translations came much later...in fact Luther broke off and made changes in....1534??

Evidence is in all the walls of ancient cities written about in the Bible during the Isreali's capture by Babylonia..
Babylonia allowed the Jews to make the Wall of Exodus.

IT stands with the same details of Exodus...and at the exact spot written about in the Bible.

WHY were those details exact...Fear of knowing God.

WE dont have that today...in fact this discussion is more than proof.

just the exsistence of this thread makes me chuckle. how is this for an answer - maybe. it takes up a lot less bandwidth, if nothing else

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John gave details to what Christ said, and HOW He showed He was God by word."

Again since you bring things up out of context, I'm not sure if I'm following, feel free to let me know, but, what does this mean, and how does one prove with words?

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St John 9; 22
......to confess Him to be the Christ.


St John 10; 24-39

10:24 The Jews therefore came round about him and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

10:25 Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me.

10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.

10:27 My sheep hear my voice. And I know them: and they follow me.

10:28 And I give them life everlasting: and they shall not perish for ever. And no man shall pluck them out of my hand.

10:29 That which my Father hath given me is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father.

10:30 I and the Father are one.

Note I and the Father are one. . .That is, one divine nature, but two distinct persons.

10:31 The Jews then took up stones to stone him.

10:32 Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father. For which of those works do you stone me?

10:33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy: and because that thou. being a, man, makest thyself God.

10:34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said, you are gods?

10:35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God was spoken; and the scripture cannot be broken:

10:36 Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest; because I said: I am the Son of God?

10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

10:38 But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me and I in the Father.

10:39 They sought therefore to take him: and he escaped out of their hands.


Etc etc...
NOW this wont make sense unless you know Jewish prohpecies...and what the Christ meant.
Christ was to be God....whom was made lower than angels...and became man.

THIS is why they would not accept Him...because He came poor, and with servitude.

THEY said He Blasphemed...and if you know anything about Jewish custom...Calling oneself God is blaspheming.
AND thus they said He blasphemed.
EVEN tho He showed them works and miracles.

He said the Father and He were One..etc.

John worte mostly about The Origin of Christ...Jesus.

If you could comprehend the Book of Wisdom..this explains the Messiah..and the Messiah was to be the Lord.

Ok...and I dont think we are making headway.

I explain things in person so much better.

However that event is ever impossible...ponder all I have said..eh?

Better yet...Ponder history...the Jewish History and How Christ came and fuliflled all of the ancient prophets prophecies.

Even the Prophets foretold the IN detail how Jesus would NOT be accepted....
Christ said...Only IN the wicked times, would ppl demand a SIGN.

DO we demand a sign...or do we believe without it?

"How is the same detailed Old Testament speculation...the same Exodus is written on the walls of ancient cities... "

The claims woman, the claims, besides, the stories of gods and men, a son (sun) being born living dying being reborn again is ancient and happens every day.

Your touted old testament is not the only Holy book, again you are very one sided and closed minded to the reality of the scope of the history of world religions and all their stories and claims.

As for the accuracy, well, you confuse me a little on this, you talk of different bibles, some containing info others don't, similarities, and a specific fanatical attempt to preserve. Plus, as long as a copy exists it can be reprinted so some things can be preserved I'm sure, but at this point you have to pick and choose what religion, holy book, version, etc. etc. to find the accurate similarities and accountings, cherry picking.

But the point is the accuracy of the info to begin with, and thats what I'm most concerned with. Though the rest is indeed very important.

"IF we know how MEN can not repeat a story the same...BUT in every detail the same story is written in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Christian scrolls, and the ancient walls...how is this proof that it is fiction or non fiction?"

What were the relations between writers with eachother and the knowledge and how did they obtain the story to write?

"AGAIN...because men WHO KNEW GOD, SAW GOD, AND FEARED GOD...wrote it in exacting details...painfully so.
FOR it says NOTHING must be changed...and the Bible {Word} would last for all time."

Uh, alleged much, claims woman, claims. Goes on all the time, ever seen the 700 CLub? You'd have a zillion testaments by now if all claims were incorporated.

"God said it...and it is still true today..."

And you can substantiate this how? Oh, by saying it?

"IN fact, the Jews had to sing each verse they wrote. "

Oh, those crafty boogers.

"NOTE....The Old Testament still has remained the same through out history.....NOT one scripture was changed. "

Well, I just spoke with God and he says there are all kinds of typo's.

{Only exception is in todays modern world...where few Fear God}

Don't have the luxury, all fear is taken currently by man's insatiable desire for utter destruction, including looking forward and promoting Armageddon, sick.

"Christianity has ONE keeper to the exact accounts...The Catholic Church."

And God knows a monolopoly on anything especially information is the seed of honesty and accuracy. Besides, I would think it would be those who lived it, and not their writings either.

"Every other christian denomination has made their changes... starting with Luther..who removed Jewish text, and added..."In faith alone"

Then we had seen a spiralling of this same disrespect for the Bible and the original church today. BUT the Catholic Church still stands...same doctrine. "

Put blame where you like, but at some point people are going to question stories of man and god, miracles, and flat out weird, violent, and sexual writings.

"Then we had seen a spiralling of this same disrespect for the Bible and the original church today. BUT the Catholic Church still stands...same doctrine."

Yet we still need Popes and priests to tell us what to think and feel on a daily basis.

"ALL men think they have the power to discern the doctrine according to how they see it."

No kidding, as well as the history of it.

"Big example is JW's have rewrote the majority of scripure..
read the New World Translation...their Bible...it excludes sentences where Christ inferred He was God....or where Thomas said at seeing Christ after He rose..
"My Lord and My God"...in addressing Jesus.

WHO wants this confusion?? "

Really, we've got enough with the fact that Christianity and its derivitives are the youthfull upstarts of the religious world claiming sole righteousness overall.

"IT is not just man, for all claim they have the truth in scripture ALONE {Without tradition}...it is a cunning spirit who also knows scripture who aids the new mistranslations."

Maybe they were just tired of old mistranslations of events.

"Evidence is in all the walls of ancient cities written about in the Bible during the Isreali's capture by Babylonia..
Babylonia allowed the Jews to make the Wall of Exodus."

Evidence of what relevant information?

" WHY were those details exact...Fear of knowing God. "

Wait what? Your supposed to fear knowing him too?

"WE dont have that today...in fact this discussion is more than proof."

Proof of what exactly, what do you claim to know and not of God, and why is your knowledge more accurate than others, because you are following A herd?

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His followers called APostles started the first church.....
IT became known as Catholic AFTER Luther spilt from it...hence it had to seperate itself....by a name.
Catholic meaning UNIVERSAL!

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If you asked the Pope, he would tell you that Peter was the first Pope. If you ask an history, he or she will tell you something different. Truth is, because of the Dark Ages we don't really know what happened. You claim to be a follower of the Pope, so I would expect you to believe what he says. I however believe the historians because the Catholic church does not know how to interpret the symbols in the Catacombs, like the fish, the most common symbol. Both the historians and the Catholic Church does not know what it means. The protestants have adopted the symbol. You would think that the Catholic church would know without a doubt why that symbol is just all over the place in the catacombs.

THERE IT IS....PROOF YOU IGNORE INFO GIVEN TO YOU OKCITY.

I showed you an entire site with the Catholics explaining the whole catacomb thing.

YOU either ignored it...overlooked it, or misunderstood it.

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The claims woman, the claims, besides, the stories of gods and men, a son (sun) being born living dying being reborn again is ancient and happens every day.

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O gosh....you have not one clue about any of it do you? Be honest.....I wanted to leave awhile...BUT was asked to return.

Lord give me strength..I dont wish to stay here.

Ok....NO ONE has ever ever ever risen from the dead before...in a whole body!!!!...BUT could go through walls and closed doors....and then ascend into the heavens....b4 witnesses. NOT an average day or person...by NO means.

Ie yie yie..Ya know lefty I just wish I could penetrate...but your mind is sealed tighter than a drum...

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Uh, alleged much, claims woman, claims. Goes on all the time, ever seen the 700 CLub? You'd have a zillion testaments by now if all claims were incorporated

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I DONT WATCH THE 700 CLUB.

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{Only exception is in todays modern world...where few Fear God}

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THAT was that answer...

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And God knows a monolopoly on anything especially information is the seed of honesty and accuracy. Besides, I would think it would be those who lived it, and not their writings either.

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St John

21:23 This saying therefore went abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die. And Jesus did not say to him: He should not die; but: So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee?

21:24 This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things and hath written these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Therefore that scripure quote and the other scripture telling us to 'keep both the oral and written scripture' shows us that both are to be maintained...for those religions who hold ONLY the scripture cannot have all the truth intact.

Besides...YOU cannot read my heart for God...but know...I love God.
Whether or not you agree is your judgement on me...at least I stand firm for GOD and not against.




BTW.....Okcity.....IF BUSH had been out to kill Iraqi's for the sake of killing it would be another story...
WE were attacked, have been attacked since 1979.

Judge me all ya want... At least I can see how the Iraqi's have prayed for this...read stories where many prayed for AMERICA TO GET INVOLVED!!!

"O gosh....you have not one clue about any of it do you?"

Careful, your arrogance is showing.

Be honest.....I wanted to leave awhile...BUT was asked to return."

Don't even know what you mean.

"Lord give me strength..I dont wish to stay here."

What the hell are you babbling about?

"Ok....NO ONE has ever ever ever risen from the dead before...in a whole body!!!!...BUT could go through walls and closed doors....and then ascend into the heavens....b4 witnesses. NOT an average day or person...by NO means.

Ie yie yie..Ya know lefty I just wish I could penetrate...but your mind is sealed tighter than a drum..."

I don't even know if you are recanting or being sarcastic, what is sealed about my mind, I have never witnessed even the possibility of such events let alone actual ones, and am skeptical towards any who claim to have, which is perfectly reasonable. With no assured belief one way or another past what I understand of the golden rule.

A sealed mind has chosen or been forced to believe something. You are the one with the belief, so get your sealed mind story right for a change.

I believe the events of the bible just as possible as anything else, just not likely.

"I DONT WATCH THE 700 CLUB."

Funny, you'd fit right in. The point is of all the claims, they constantly used to at least the few times I've watched, report of endless claims of appiritions, speaking directly with god and angels and of course a frequently updated prediction on the second coming. All between constantly asking for money of course.

"THAT was that answer... "

What? You prefer just talking to yourself don't you. I was making a half hearted joke, man today is feeling alienated from both fellow man and god.

"Besides...YOU cannot read my heart for God...but know...I love God.
Whether or not you agree is your judgement on me...at least I stand firm for GOD and not against."

I see a person more concerned with staying out of hell than loving anyone. Who selectively believes information like everyone else and believes her fallible self infallible like only the most arrogant of any.

"WE were attacked, have been attacked since 1979."

Now what are you talking about?

"Judge me all ya want... At least I can see how the Iraqi's have prayed for this...read stories where many prayed for AMERICA TO GET INVOLVED!!!"

Uh huh, and plenty more if you open your ears who pray the other way,

http://www.islamonline.org/English/News/2005-04/09/article01.shtml

two sides to every story, what people not in power pray for is based of declassified info, if it was the classified kind, who knows what people would be praying for. Maybe we should find out instead of acting like we know whats going on, just a thought.

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BTW.....Okcity.....IF BUSH had been out to kill Iraqi's for the sake of killing it would be another story...
WE were attacked, have been attacked since 1979.

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WE WERE NEVER EVER ATTACkED BY IRAQ OR SADDAM OR ANYONE RELATED TO SADDAM.

If our neighbor on our right robs us, does this give us the right to rob our neighbor on the left?

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I showed you an entire site with the Catholics explaining the whole catacomb thing.

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You posted links to history sites according to the Catholics. I'm not interested in Catholic history sites, as I've explained, I have taken the historians side of history over the Catholic version. I wasn't aware that any of those explained the symbols in the Catacombs. If you were my teacher I would respect and honor the links you offer. But your not my teacher, I wouldn't have you as my teacher, I'm not required to click on any of your links. If you can prove me wrong, then do so and quote it here.

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I don't even know if you are recanting or being sarcastic, what is sealed about my mind, I have never witnessed even the possibility of such events let alone actual ones, and am skeptical towards any who claim to have, which is perfectly reasonable. With no assured belief one way or another past what I understand of the golden rule.

A sealed mind has chosen or been forced to believe something. You are the one with the belief, so get your sealed mind story right for a change.

I believe the events of the bible just as possible as anything else, just not likely.

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Reasonable is understanding human 'tendencies'...and human tendencies show us that humans are not going to maintain a story with exacting accuracy IF THEY DID NOT WITNESS IT and FEAR OF CHANGING IT.

NOT likely it would survive if it was a falsehood.
Not likely the facts would coincide with ancient findings either if it were a farce.

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A sealed mind has chosen....

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YOU see this goes both ways?
But you fail to see how human nature works...told you umteen times how it works...yet you still cannot 'open' your mind to it.

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You posted links to history sites according to the Catholics. I'm not interested in Catholic history sites, as I've explained, I have taken the historians side of history over the Catholic version. I wasn't aware that any of those explained the symbols in the Catacombs. If you were my teacher I would respect and honor the links you offer. But your not my teacher, I wouldn't have you as my teacher, I'm not required to click on any of your links. If you can prove me wrong, then do so and quote it here

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DID you or did YOU NOT say the Catholics COULD NOT explain the catacombs???

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DID you or did YOU NOT say the Catholics COULD NOT explain the catacombs???

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I hope that the Catholic church can explain the catacombs, they own them and refuse to fully open them up to the public for fear that someone may get lost, as they are extremely extensive.

What the Catholic church and the historian are unable to understand is the SYMBOLS, etched on the walls of the Catacombs. Some of them they have figured out, like the bird, they believe it represents the spirit. If the Catholic church was apart of the original church, you'd think they would just know what all those symbols are, but they don't. The protestants have adopted many of these symbols, portraying them everywhere including the license plates of their cars. They claim they know what they mean believing they are a part of the true church, but they don't know, their just guessing. Nobody knows for sure, something we lost touch of. To me, this is proof that the original church just isn't here anymore. On this I side with Jehova Witnesses.

"Reasonable is understanding human 'tendencies'...and human tendencies show us that humans are not going to maintain a story with exacting accuracy IF THEY DID NOT WITNESS IT and FEAR OF CHANGING IT.

NOT likely it would survive if it was a falsehood.
Not likely the facts would coincide with ancient findings either if it were a farce."

Bullshit, there are thousands of religions, don't delude yourself many with ancient origins and prized texts that will factually corrolate with basic history.

"humans are not going to maintain a story with exacting accuracy IF THEY DID NOT WITNESS IT and FEAR OF CHANGING IT."

Uh, what? Who alive has witnessed the events of the bible? No one, yet the story persists.

Read your own statement, look at the wording that you HAVE to use, "not likely". Speculation and assumption.

"Reasonable is understanding human 'tendencies'..."

That's hilarious, thats exactly why I question every word out of every human's mouth, I've been given very good reason too, people are full of shit, and even you are constantly having to argue with people because of it.

Human tendency, like survival, greed of power and control, LIES LIES LIES, Exageration, mistakes, FEAR, over zealous desire to be right, to prove their beliefs. Tendency to try to make others believe what you do.

Human tendency? Lets get more specific, fundamentalist tendency, thats very important to understand.

As soon as all ACTUAL alleged witnesses are dead, it is all a belief and allegation. Where every statement you make of why they do what they do and how well, is SPECULATION. And where the validity of claims becomes a matter of speculation from all others who were not witness.

Writings are not proof of anything. Matching history, or even matching claims, is not proof that Jesus performed miracles. It does not prove that Moses talked to god. It CLAIMS it. And like any book or even holy book, it is perfectly reasonable for me to question its validity.

You don't even know how to look at the situation even slightly objectively from the sound of it. You are a rabid believer, a frightener of children, you have an agenda, you don't want the truth, YOU WANT WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE TRUE

Woman, if 12 people came up to you and said they had all witnessed Satan appear before them and confess that he is actually god and perform miracles, and they had devoutly written scripture for it, does this mean you would believe it too? From what you say and how you defend the Bible, as long as their historical information is correct, you would have to.

"YOU see this goes both ways?"

No, what have I chosen? A mind I can respect because I know I CAN'T KNOW? As opposed to niavely and beligerantly believing what other tell me?

"But you fail to see how human nature works...told you umteen times how it works...yet you still cannot 'open' your mind to it."

Wrong, I see where you are coming from, but it would only be valid if HONESTY and ACCURACY where more the norm than lies deciet and desire to control. You again are the one closed minded to the possibility of anything other than what you have chosen to believe, I believe that both possibilities are possible but do not know, get that through your beligerant head.

You are the one ignoring human tendencies, not me.

Do you question other's claims, I know for a fact you do, hypocricy is if you condemn me for doing so.

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Bullshit, there are thousands of religions, don't delude yourself many with ancient origins and prized texts that will factually corrolate with basic history.

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DUH!!!!

Buddha has a following BECAUSE ppl saw him.
However...his writings have not been left intact. Amazingly alot were burned...not so with the bible.

ALSO, any pagan nation has proof of 'some form a natural disaster' that shows how their tribes ended...
A gr8 deluge was one.
And other archeology digs also show how the fall of Babylon occurred.

AND in the same detail...the Babylonians 'made' fine artwork showing their great conquer of Sion...Isreal.
With accuracy, the symbols show on the walls the findings in KINGS when God allowed them to overtake Isreal due to pagan worship.

GO on....stay in your box.

ANYWAY.....Okcity...IF you read the site I gave you...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03417b.htm

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Then came that year of misfortune, 410, when the Goths laid siege to Rome for months, devastated the surrounding country, and plundered the city itself. This naturally put an end to burial in the catacombs. In the following centuries Goths, Vandals, and Lombards repeatedly besieged and plundered Rome; plague and pestilence depopulated the region around the city; both the churches over the graves of the martyrs and the catacombs sank into decay, and shepherds of the campagna even turned the deserted sanctuaries into sheepfolds. For this reason Pope Paul I (757-67) began to transfer the remains of the martyrs to the churches of the city; the work was continued by Paschal I (817-24) and Leo IV (847-55). As a result the catacombs lost their attraction for the faithful, and by the twelfth century they were completely forgotten.

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In 1578 a catacomb on the Via Salaria was accidentally rediscovered. It was not, however, until the publication in 1632, after the author's death, of the "Roma Sotteranea" of Antonio Bosio (q.v.), that attention was once more called to the catacombs. For nearly forty years, from the year 1593, Antonio Bosio had devoted himself to finding and exploring the early Christian cemeteries. The real "Columbus of the catacombs", however, is Giovanni Battista de Rossi. De Rossi's labours and publications have led to the wide diffusion of a knowledge of archaeology and an increased veneration for the catacombs.

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I hope you understand now..... BUT I wont hold my breath.

"And other archeology digs also show how the fall of Babylon occurred.

AND in the same detail...the Babylonians 'made' fine artwork showing their great conquer of Sion...Isreal.
With accuracy, the symbols show on the walls the findings in KINGS when God allowed them to overtake Isreal due to pagan worship."

You keep repeating corroborating acountings of man made war.

What does accuracy of acounting war have to do with the validity of claims of miracles, angels, devils, and gods? Recording of human events is irrelevant to my line of questioning. What proof is there of anything relevant?