A Just Religion - Page 4

Why is it that its that its usually the religious people, the ones who claim to be, well, basically righteous simply because the believe in and "try" ( I say try because they all seem to claim to be sinners in need of forgiveness, so don't worry if your confused, its not you, it just doesn't make sense) to follow a "higher standard" of forgiveness and acceptance, why is it that they are usually first to condem, criticize, and even attack in various ways all sorts of people and practices at the drop of a hat. I thought by their teachings that was God's job and that they are sinning in doing so. Oh ya, that's right, its ok if they sin as long as they repent, have jesus in their heart, or kill an enemy of their faith, perhaps kill themselves in a suicide attack against an acceptable enemy, or just perhaps a show of good faith.

(you ever heard of Samson from the bible, he's famous for (with the gift of superhuman strength from God given to fight with the enemies of his country and faith) killing in one battle a thousand philistines, then for killing even more including himself, the woman he loved that had betrayed him, a head royal figure(s) of the philistines, in a suicide attack, not blowing up a building but tearing it down with his mighty God given super-strength.

But it was in the name of our God and in the bible and so he is remembered as a Hero of the times of his people of course as well as a hero of the christian religion, plus various other bible following faiths.

It's merely a coincidence I'm sure, you want to know what the funniest part of that story for me is? How I personally heard it, most recently, on a childrens cartoon on the trinity broadcasting network, heroes of the bible, there is a scene where after this chick totally sells him out to the philistines they come in and cut out his eyes, just in time for my sunday morning scrambled eggs with the kids, not showing it directly they say it, because they are candid in the violence to children as long as its in the bible, but instead of showing it, get this, they had tom and jerry like crazy goofy sound effects to go with it all, during multitudes of Braveheart worthy animated battles that were both explicit and gorey, however you spell that.

I was seriously dumbfounded, with all the (especially religious) outcry about the affects/effects (whatever) of children and exposure to such graphic material, they even went into talking about how Sampson was popular with all the ladies, I forget what terminology they used but it was specifically saying that he was very promiscuous.

How do you like them apples, oh wait, aren't apples bad too or something, its so hard to keep track of it all.

leftwood, fist of all, the old testament was under a different code of rules then the new testament. in the old testament, it is, "an eye for an eye." in the new testament, it is "turn the other cheek," and "do good to those who persecute you."

there are those who are hypocritical. this is true of any religion, including atheism. its not ok to sin. a real Christian, to the best of their ability, obeys God. i say to the best of their ability because all people are sinners and fall short of true obediance to God. no one is perfect, but we were supposed to be perfect. so, if we got what we deserved, we would all go to hell, (which, by the way, is defined as eternal seperation from God) but because He is merciful He has given us a way to be saved.

interesting, ya I am aware again, thanks to you reminding me, about the laws of moses as opposed to the laws of jesus, but that very point, of a flip flop ( i hate you bush for getting that phrase stuck in my head) of such supposedly infalible and unchangeable laws and rules is at the very foundation of the inconcistencies and internal arguments that, under the rules of something being all knowing all right and unchanging, it just isn't allowed to do without destroying its own credibility.

as for the next comment, doesn't it seem as though all this cat and mouse stuff is a little beneath such an all powerful being, I mean c'mon, not only does it tend to contradict itself, god says don't kill, then god tells everyone to kill, uh, problem, isn't this all a little like a bad reality tv show?

It makes no sense for a God who is claimed to have done, and in some peoples account still does (like bush), so much conversing and interacting with us simple human for years doing all kinds of crazy stuff, rains of fire and frogs, killing babies, creating witnessable miracles, and then, nothing, nope sorry, done talking. I'll get back to you in a couple thousand years, but don't hold your breath.

It doesn't make sense, you can rationalize and make scenarios that can fit, but that doesn't mean they are true.

you are assuming that our finite human minds can understand a plan very high above us. its like a fish in a bowl trying to understand the ocean.

as to the miracles, or lack there of, if God did miracles continuously we wouldnt know they were miracles. you make ur assumption of what is and what is not a miracle on a comparitive basis. for instance, when God sent manna to the Israelites, they thought it was pretty great for a while. then they got sick of it and started asking for steak. a miracle is only a miracle as long as it is original.

understand what an assumption is, I don't believe in anything in particular, assumptions are simply generalized consistencies that allow for a basis of context for an idea or argument, allowing for forwardish conversation such as this.

I disagree with your next paragraph though, or at least what you seem have interpreted from mine, I don't believe in miracles as per what religion claims to be miracles, I think all things are miraculous, its religions that have mad themselves the authority of what is deemed a miracle and what isn't, and I totally agree that they'll see it as a miracle on sec and something evil the next, thats the basis of my distaste for religion in general, the miracles I'm talking about anyway are religion stated miracles that were seen as direct interaction with humans, coming from my point of how it doesn't make sense for him to explain himself to a select few and leave them in charge of telling us, especially in the light of him making the rules in the first place, because he knows we are human and can't seem not to lie or abuse authority and power. It is a cosmic joke, and people buy it everday. God can do anything, right, then he is playing games and i think people are losing, I just know that if any of what religion claims is true, that God or jesus or whatever is going to come and say, ok, I asked that you try to live a certain way, and I knew you couldn't, so my real test was to see if you could stop lying, sorry you all failed and now you are all going to hell, have fun.

im sorry if i hav incorrectly interpreted your post. i shall try not to do that with this one.

secondly, i hav no arguements with you as far as the evils that religions hav brought about. but, look at it this way, until not that long ago, nearly everyone had a religion of some sort or other. therefore, every bad thing in the human race came about due to religion, yes because there was no one without religion.

if your talking about Christianity, which, for the moment, i'm going to assume you are, then yes, Jesus did leave a select few in charge of telling the world. considering the ammount of Christians in the world, i would say they did a fairly good job.

The actions of any Christian leader are based on the Bible. it sets very precise rules as to how they are to behave and what they should teach. any leader of the Christian faith, of any denomination, must follow the Bible. that is the check system. i'm not saying to blindly trust any pastor, bishop, priest, etc. thats why we are to study God's word ourselves, to insure we are not being taught falsely.

its not a matter of people winning or losing. God is fighting a battle with Satan, which he will evenually win. we are in the middle of this battle, and must choose what side to be on. Why is there a battle? that i dont know. but then i dont think anyone,of any religion, or for that matter atheists as well, can explain everything. i hate to go back to the smallness of the human mind, but i dont think u can argue that we have no chance of knowing everything. whatever you believe, you have to have faith in something, because nothing can really be proven.

to say that everyone had religion, even the majority, untill recently is a bit pressumptuous. Where do you get your info?

What are you saying the select few meant to tell the world did a good job of, telling the world or making it a better place?

The preciseness of the rules in which you speak, does not seem to be quite as precise as you claim, this would leave no room for the endless interpretations that do exist. Other than the ten commandments and the expression of just doing unto others etc. the bible is a metaphorical book of fables. Stories with morals. Not too precise. Quite contradictory as a matter of fact. You can't have god tell you not to kill, then tell of instances where he tell someone to kill their own kid and is right for doing so and call that precise. (I heard that whats his nuts that did kill his kid eventually is even said to have won an argument with god, check it out)

See, to worry about blindling following a human religious authority figure while fully embracing the bible is to forget that it was written by humans and some where or became human religious authorities. Not too mention the changes that have occured to and unchangable document, the infinite interpretations there of.

God if fighting a battle with satan huh, well he must not be all that all powerful then. No, no one can explain everything, its up to us to choose what we believe, your just following what others have given you, there is no good reason for it.

Here's what I have faith in, that I don't know, and no all powerfull being is bothering to tell me, and that man is currently unable not to lie and cannot be trusted to tell me whats right or wrong, true or false. Oh, and other than the golden rule, and a source of coming together, religion is bullshit and irrelevant, its people who are scared to trust themselves in their thoughts and actions, who know they don't know anything for sure and want someone to tell them otherwise.

i got my info from world history class lol. im sorry i cant give u a more specific source, im yet young and doing my best to learn more, about my religion and others.

i said that the select few told the world. not that the world believed.

people can differently interpret anything. lets say the Bible says, "Open the door." i dont think it does anywhere, but lets use that for an example. that could be interpreted literally. open the door. or it could be interpreted as, open the door to your mind, look outside the box, a million other interpretations from a million different people. however, although i've heard many people say that one cant tell when the Bible is speaking in parables and when it is literal, i hav never had this problem. it generally seems pretty obvious to me.

i think i wrote on another thread that man did not write the Bible. God did.

i dont know why God doesnt just get rid of Satan and be done with all the suffering in the world. it is a point i am personally struggling with, though if i do find an answer of some sort i will most certainly let you know.

God is trying to tell you. you just arnt listening. dont take me wrong when i say this, it isnt a personal affront, but although most people accuse Christians of being close minded, they do the same the second they hear the word "Jesus." they inwardly roll their eyes and assume anything said after that is crap. i just ask u give Christianity the same chance u would give any other philosophy or religion.

first off, no worries, none of us know as much as we would like.

To say that I don't listen to god, is to say that I have power over god, if he wanted people to hear something, they would.

Uh, but god didn't write anything except the ten commandmenst, so says the bible.

What exactly of the bible seems obvious to you, hopefully you are going to say that what is obvious is the message of a need for love. comassion and understanding.

As for giving christians or any other religions a chance, I've dabbled and I have questioned, they blow their chances every time, they are repetitive and don't even tend to know the history of what they say, when the stick to the ideas of wanting or needing to be good people, well that makes sense, its only when they start going against what are supposed to be their principle, like going around judging people and trying to control things through censorship that they overstep their boundaries and tend to abuse their beliefs, others beliefs, as well as any authoritative power they may posses.

im sorry for the hypocrites who claim to follow my God. i really am. i'm sorry that they have led u to distrust all those who claim to be Christians. there are many who say they believe in Jesus, that they do what he says, and they dont. i know, my ex-boyfriend was one. however, i ask that u dont base ur judgements of God on them.

as to ur having power over God by being able to not listen to him, he gave us free will. he didnt want puppets, he wanted children.

free will is a contradiction to god being all powerful, there maybe that one will stick.

I don't have any judgements on god and peoples thoughts and beliefs have not convinced to have any, they tend to convince me not to.

you can't be and do as jesus said, we are imperfect by the claim of your own religion, and the only imperfection regarded is the ability to sin, or inability not too (which may be the case)

When we start calling survival instincts a sin we come up with these problems.

ok, ur irritated as heck with me and i'm sorry. i'm not sure how to answer u, and u could see that as an admission of defeat. but its not. i will try to learn as much as i can on these subjects, and i will post what i learn.

Oh no worries again, I may be passionate or frustrated at moments but its not with you, you claim to know things that you say and know you do not know, keep doing that and you will run into frustrated people.

So I take it you are not familiar with the kid killing story, i don't know if the kid was a kid or what age it was, but there are more baby killing stories in the bible than I care for, mainly by god.

Not irritated with you promise

What some of it comes down to with me and what I want to know from you is, what is it that you believe in, if you believe that there is a god is irrelevant, what I mean is, do you believe in the bible or the message of the bible, to believe the bible to be a true and completely nonfiction god written thing is what I have great issue with, because you know you can't know for sure, and its one thing to have faith that God exists and to have faith in the idea that we should be good people, its just a whole other thing when you have claim faith in the acts and creations of man.

ok leftwood, glad u arnt mad at me, and i understand ur frustration. though it may bore u i will tell u exactly what i believe and when i started believing it.

my moms a christian of the reform church and believes things blindly. my dad is a brilliant agnostic who i hav had many debates with, so i suppose u could say i easily coudl hav gone either way.

i'm a christian because a time came when i could feel Him so close to me that i could have no doubt of his exsistance. when i read the Bible, it speaks to me, helps me in whatever i'm going through. though i might have read the same verses over and over again, they always seem to mean something slightly different. i suppose all this might not seem logical, but, as much as i look at different viewpoints, they all seem equally illogical to me.

i guess one could say these are the reasons i have faith in God and the Bible, and as illogical as they may seem to u, they make perfect sense to me. so i guess that would mean logic depends on the individual.

not really, you are just expressing that you will run with something that suits your needs. And trust me, as an agnostic my self, that doesn't tend to suit anyones needs, at least not in the sense of making people happy in the way that religion does. Religion, the opiate of the masses, it does make you feel good and safe, doesn't mean its not just a bunch of shit though, drugs provide ways of dealing with reality and its pains without having answers, that is what religion does, like saying screw it, just be nice and be happy.

Religion is a source of euphoria, so are drugs, drugs are just looked down upon because people tend to become physically dabilitated or just unproductive, where as with religion people can still function for the most part. That is the key difference between the 2.

And when you talked about feeling his presence, you had already had a notion put in your head that if you felt something like this it would be god, otherwise you might have just thought you had gas.