What's Wrong With Islams Leaders? - Page 2

OKcitykid, Iliked your site. Yes I think I know what you are sayin. Once I had some web pages at a site and decided to visit others at the location. To my chagrin some person had gone around putting up sites of various spiritual views in name but they all led to a similar page that had nothing to do with the stated form, in fact it professed another religion's spiritual belief in reality.

I got a reply : ), Not exectly the words I was hoping for - But we're talking - hope we can continue to talk. I'll post it here and quick reply and give and forward on anyone elses reply.

"> Hello Roger,
> Peace be with you!
> Thank you for your mail. I visited the discussion board you have mentioned. You have spoken of "suicide terrorism" there.
>
> In fact, what you call "suicide terrorism" is the last-ditch battle fought by a desperate people who have no other weapon but their own bodies, their own lives.
>
> "Terrorism" itself is born out of despair, often committed by a group of desperadoes who want to bring a grievance before the world; or if possible to get the world to do something to redress it. (Of course, this does not include the state terrorism of countries like the U.S or Israel, where they go on massacring innocent people with their F-16s and DU bombs or cluster bombs dropped from a height of thirty thousand feet or above).
> In fact the religious leaders of Islam often try to persuade the Palestinians to give up "Martyrdom operations". But you cannot talk peace to a people who see their kids being torn to pieces by bombs and machine guns. Don't you know that Israel is committing terrible atrocities on the Palestinians denying them their birthright to their homeland. Most of the Israeli settlers come from Europe to settle in the land encroached from the poor people of Palestine, in the name of a misinterpreted verse from the Jewish Bible, which says that Jehovah has given the Land of Canaan to Abraham's children. In fact those people who are living in the land are Abraham's children through Ishmael. But the Israelis and some misguided Christians would deny these people this right for obvious reasons.
>
> Do you believe that those who do martyrdom operations do so, because they desire a certain number of virgins in Paradise, as alleged. If so, tell me why women, even teenagers are ready to die.
>
> It is a pity that most Americans are kept in their ignorance by your media controlled mainly by your military-industrial complex, against which no less a person than President Eisenhower had warned.
>
> In fact the chief nourishment for terrorism comes from the unjust policies adopted by the wealthy countries of the world, who want to loot the poor nations to continue their present life of comforts. As long s there is grievous injustice prevailing in the world, especially in international politics and economics, terrorism will grow. To acts of organized state terrorism, there will be opposite acts, coming from the victims, though they may not be equal and well-organized. As the states have police, army and all other resources including good PR departments, they seem to be always right or at least they are made to appear so. This does not really make their version of terrorism any less worthy of condemnation.
> So, if you want to know about our response to what you have written in your mail, here is it: WE ARE AGAINST TERRORISM OF ALL KINDS AND AGAINST THEIR ROOT CAUSES.
> Thank you and do keep in touch.
> Sorry, I don't have the inclination to do the tedious task of registering to become a memeber of your discussion group. If you please, you may publish this reaction on your discussion page.
> Please keep in touch and send me your response.
> Thank you for writing.
> Regards,
> Prof. Shahul Hameed,
> Islamonline.net
>
Thank you for your response. - I will reply - my reply may not completely agree with you, but please, though we may not see the same, I hope we can be friends.

I BELIEVE IN GOD, AND I BELIEVE THAT THE GOD YOU BELIEVE IN IS THE SAME GOD I BELIEVE IN. I BELIEVE WE BELIEVE IN THE SAME GOD.

I will post this and forward any responses to you.

With The Blessings Of God - Roger - The Okcitykid"

The main issue is Israel. That is not an easy issue. Like I explained earlier - Lots of Jews died. And if it wasn't for the fact that we took land from someone else and put Israel there then you too might agree that it was an awful thing. This happened long before I was born and in those days the bible was the history book, we knew no other truth. According to the bible, Israel is right where it is supposed to be. I know that you understand all this, but I want you to know that I don't agree with the bible. Many like myself look at what was done and say Oops! we made a mistake. Admitting this however does nothing, the problem is there and difficult to undo.

Here is a worse problem. For every person in the U.S. who believes like I do, there are ten more who will disagree with me. And worse than that, there will be a hundred foreigners who will disagree with me and that number is growing, according to statistics from Wired Magazine. Now comes the scary part: I've been taught this all my life, and I'm still not sure it won't come true. The whole world will go to war against Israel except for a few select Christians who will be marked. Just when it looks like Israel is going to be destroyed, God will come down and destroy the whole world except for a select few Christians and save Israel. That's scary, and I have an open mind, and yet I still think this might come true. Imagine how many people truly believe that this will come true around the world. You can clearly see that fighting with Israel using any means, including suicide terrorism is not politically correct and is certainly a mistake.

I see that nobody else wished to answer this post - Sorry if I put you on the spot. I will finish answering this in private, and all further correspondence will be in private.

From Shahul Hameed.

The Biblical Roots of the Palestinian Problem

Jehovah's Promise

The Zionist Jews claim that Jehovah promised the whole Land of Palestine exclusively to them, as they are the Children of Abraham. The relevant scriptural verses are:

Now the Lord said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you.
And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. (Genesis 12: 1, 2)

And he said unto him, I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. (Genesis 15: 7)

And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generation.s (Genesis 17: 8, 9)

Chiefly relying on a twisted interpretation of the above verses in their scripture, the Zionists claim that God's eternal covenant with Abraham and his descendants means that Israel must have undivided political sovereignty over all the land mentioned there, which according to them stretches from the Nile in Egypt to the Euphrates in Iraq.

In fact this claim is erroneous from the Bible's own point of view, because God's covenant was given to Abraham and to all his descendants; not merely to Israel. Abraham is 'the father of many nations', not only one nation as can be seen from Genesis 17:3-6:

Then Abram fell on his face; and God said to him, "Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you.'

We know that the Bible speaks of Abraham's two sons: His firstborn was Ishmael, and the second, Isaac. The Arabs are the children of Ishmael and the Jews the children of Isaac. The mother of Abraham's son Ishmael was Hagar the Egyptian, who had received a covenant promise: "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count" (Genesis 16:1-15). Those descendants were Arabs, settling in Arab territory (Genesis 25:13-18).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3339785.stm

And from the other side:

Seamonster66

Status: Member
From: USA
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 987
I wouldn't say any group that pays families to have one of their kids be used to blow up a city bus and kill innocent people "rules", as in your name. I have had this debate way too many times in here and people try to get me to alter my opinion but until they stop this practice I don't think the world should listen to anything they say.

I wish the US had nothing at all to do with that region personally, I'm sick of people giving the US shit about their support of Isreal etc.

Concerning the latest suicide bombing:

From: www.islamonline.com:
"Palestinian officials condemned both attacks Thursday and called for renewed peace talks."

I pray that they will:

Further, in my studies of the Qur'an:

Surah 2:62: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, and who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have there reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

So - there should be no fighting.

What is GOD's Righteousness? If you were to walk along the path which brought you face to face with Jesus, what would He say?
Is it not written that from the first, brother to rise up & slay his brother? Sent HE (GOD, Our Father, Creator) forth. Did not the man complain to GOD that he would perish, slain in the earth just as he had slain? Then GOD gave ordinance that none should take the man's life?
Is it not written that this man went into the world, putting forth towns (cities), naming according to his Sons?
Jesus, What did He Teach?
To Love GOD first, then to love your neighbor as yourself?
The To-Be's and the Not-To-Be's or did Jesus teach sharing life - sharing of your self - sharing the substance of your life.
http://www.captaincynic.com/thread.php3/frmid=12-u-thrdid=18561-u-page=1
#18949 as TEEN's statement implies?

quote:

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"Not everyone believes in his teachings or his messianic qualities."
I don't believe in him either, but regardless, his life is exemplary of a moral one.

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As I found in the Morality thread, does the truth lie in the perception of the truth? Is there an absolute morality to be our guide? Our we all to oftain blinded by the light we seek, following off after shallow shades which gives us form?

'm not much for following rules. There is always an exception to every rule. Except for a few who are mentally sick or hardened by life. You can usually feel what is right and wrong by how it feels. I think even a hardened person can know, if they listened real hard and even one who is sick if they wouldn't turn away from it. But the gnostic scriptures do teach of those with a false spirit. They would be considered mentally sick and they would be the only exception except for small children who only know to eat, drink and find warmth.

Hey everyone, I m a muslim, so if any one wants to ask anything regarding islam, don't hesitate to ask.

quote:

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I m a muslim, so if any one wants to ask anything regarding islam, don't hesitate to ask.

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How do you? your religious belief system define; soul, spirit, ghost?

I've read through this thread and found it very interesting, especially after I've been exploring the teachings of Islam and Islam's "extremist" element. Muslims in the Middle East and Mid-Southeast Asia have a pretty tough deal down there. Their lands have been taken away and their religion opressed. For example, did you know that the Palestinian flag is outlawed in Israel? If that's not repression, I don't know what is. Now they are building this wall for "security purposes" to keep Muslims out of their land.
The Jews face horrible atrocities in Europe in the 30's and 40's, and have faced other forms of repression throughout their history. But what have they learned? Now they repress Islamic people in Israel in an effort to keep Israel purely Jewish. I liked the point Okcitykid made earlier about Indians forcing American families out of their homes. Except, this is even worse. The Israelis returned after thousands of years to take over the lands of a people who practice a religion very similar to theirs.

I could go on for a long time about Israeli repression and injustices, but they aren't the only ones at fault in my opinion. Islamic extremists, sometimes known as "Wahhabites" use violent methods to get what they want, which is usually an Islamic state practicing the Shariah, or Islamic code of laws. The problem is, they want this Islamic state all over the world. Muslims are currently fighting Israelis for an independent state in Palestine, Russians for an independent state in Chechnya, and Indian Hindus in Kashmir for control of the area. Recently, an American invasion in Afghanistan has sparked more conflict there, and American aggression in Iraq has done the same. Plus, we can't forget the guerilla activities of Abu Sayyaf in the Phillipines. It seems that Muslims are determined to spread their religion by violence in every part of the world.

Perhaps this is because Muslims have trouble letting go of the fact that the Islamic Empire was once one of the most powerful, sophisticated, and cultured civilizations in the world, and one that actually led to the preservation of Western civilization and ideas, the flames of which they are now trying so hard to extinguish.

I guess what I will say in conclusion is that Muslims have a rough deal in many parts of the world, but take it too far by using brutal tactics to murder any believer of another faith. This was not the original intention of Islam. I believe it is stated in the Qu'ran that the "people of the book" (i.e. Jews and Christians) are to be treated with tolerance and respect.

Now in my real conclusion, I will finish my saying that religion really, really sucks.

Yeah, ur absolutley right. For These religious extremists death is too easy. But mostly the motives are quite far from religious, like political, financial etc, and these organizatoins are easily able to brainwash the largly illiterate masses. The common man just follows like a sheep, not caring to question.
Personelly, I just think that this is all just a big misunderstanding. Every side has their own equally valid view points, and neither is willing to be in the others shoes. What we need right now is for all the political leaders to have a nice long discussion,and take some daring steps, but unforunately, that is in no one ' national interest'. Simply put, we are not that different from the times of the romans, when people believed that a particular race was evil, why, because it just was evil. Everyone has their own misconceptions, and I believe that more people should participate in forums like these, or at leats exercise their common sense a little.

I'm studying more now then I have in the past inorder to grasp a better understanding of the situation. But, what kind of person would blow themselves up and leave their family behind just to kill innocent people? and in doing this they believe that they are doing a great deed and will go to heaven. I'm being told that they do this because Isreal is bad. It sounds too much like the pot calling the kettle black.

I'm reading the Quran - and to my surprise, it is a very open minded book who considers the Jews and the Christians their brothers. Islam who calls us infidals needs to read its own scriptures. I am trying to be understanding, but I am NOT SIMPATHIC to either Isreal's political egenda or Islams religious egenda. They are both equally wrong - I'm not taking sides. I think they all should revisit the Quran.

From what I understand of muslim hate for christians, its origin is not essentially from Islam itself.
Rather its numerous events in recent years which have spawned hate for the west, things like :
- the french/british empires which owned vast amounts of arab land
- the abolition of the caliphate (bit like a pope) seen as caused by the west
- the "degeneracy" of the west, the constant use of sex to sell seen as a degradation of women
- massive support for Israel a Jewish state in Arab land
- the West's support for hated dictators if they sell oil to the West (Saudi Arabia)

I read this neat little book "the crisis of Islam" which gave a good overview of Islamic history and the reaons for Islamic hate.