Fate

Hello, I would just like to introduce myself a bit before starting the thread. My name is Dan and I live in Arizona, USA. I came to these forums through a banner at some other site, and I was amazed to see so many intellectual people in one place. In past forums I have visited, it would actually be considered "taboo" to exercise one's vocabulary to his maximum potential. At least here I am happy to know whatever I say will not be returned with a lifeless and very dull reply.

Basically, the idea of faith isn't that hard to understand. Fate is that which you cannot control, it is what is going to happen to you, A Creator's plan (in a religious definition of the term) for you, etc.

Yet I cannot fathom the idea that I have no choice concerning many different things. If I was told by someone (Say an oracle, such as in the matrix) that I was going to fall to my death in ten minutes, by jumping off a cliff- would I really have no choice over the matter? If I refused to move my own legs to that very cliff, would the supernatural come into effect and move them for me? How would my "Fate" be fulfilled unless something of the sort occurred?

I understand there are many variables to the idea of fate. Most likely, I would never be told of a fate within such a short time, and if I had no idea I was to jump off a cliff I would be much easily persuaded to fall off one accidentally. But if one COULD predict the future, and your fate was set in stone, then wouldn't conflicts arise as to the decisions made for you? What do you guys think?

Well, I must say, that explanation of the idea really opened my eyes about the concept of fate. I suppose it was always just a strange question I had on my mind for awhile, that if you knew your fate would you be able to change it? So thanks for sharing your point of view, it helped make my realization of fate much clearer.

well, my idea of Fate is--and i'm using this concept in a story idea i have--that, if it indeed exists, then you're screwed. if Fate tells you you're gonna die in 10 minutes, you can back away from the train tracks if you want, but you're still gonna get hit in one way or another. i think that the WAY you die is unimportant; it may change to whatever it takes to make you meet your end.

Fate's something that i neither completely agree nor diagree with. i like to think we have some control over our own lives. but a concept i find very interesting is the theory that quantum mechanics offers. it says that can happen, does. for everything that happens, there is a separate universe and separate reality for. so if that were true, it'd be like reality were still frames in a cartoon and the frames that are shown depend on what we do. so we all exist in different realities.

so for those depressed people out there, think about this: in another reality, you're royalty.

First I will pose the theory (A theory, but not necessarily my personal belief.), followed by it's reasoning...

Everything that is to occur is completely pre-determined, and (though not yet feasable) possible to predict.

This is based on the following assumptions:

A) The fact that introducing foreign chemicals into our bodies can & does affect the way we think & act is positive indication that we are completely governed by atoms. (Meaning no soul, no nothing, so some of you will probably stop reading here.)

B) That atoms function in patterns. (More proven , & believable than the first assumption, if you know what I mean by it.)

My Reasoning:

Everything in existence can be simplified to it's smallest part. If we are controlled by chemicals, & chemicals are made up of atoms, & atoms act in patterns, than all our thoughts and actions simplifiable to the smallest function? (Patterns) If everything is run on patterns, than how could we have free will?

"Pattern" is defined as a consistent, characteristic form. Consistent, meaning if 'A' & 'B' make 'C' once, than 'A' & 'B' will ALWAYS make 'C'

Which means fate is predetermined.
By examining every pattern that will every affect "you" one could predict everything (absolutely EVERYTHING) that will every happen to you, even a single thought about what you want to eat for dinner you may have in, say, 20 years! (Like I said, not feasable... but if everything there is true it is a possibility. Though there are far to many patterns involved in a persons life even over a single second to ever make it a r eality.)

Yeah, I'm so fucked up and I hope people can understand what I am at least getting at.

BTW Decius, if you know you're fate & change it, than you never knew your fate because what you changed it to is your fate. ;-P

Well there are many ways of look ing at it first off there is the theory that when things are observed there actions are influenced so by learning your fate you just entered in a variable by not even taking any action.

There is also the belief that when things you attempt to grasp things not necessarly physical things but concepts and methods you are bound to lose it due to your grasping nature.


Personally I belive that all choices have there own fate it is up to the being experiencing the instance to pick there path and live that choice to the fullest and let fate tell the cards.

I experienced at times when elements of the physical world would suddenly form into a past memory of that event. The frequency of such events allowed me to test the possibility of trying to alter the outcome of such events. At first, I was so disturbed by the memory that I simply allowed the events to transpire but as time passed I sought to alter the flow of events, going so far as to stopping others by acknowledging the event as it transpired. But the events formed before my awareness that they were going to transpire. My reaction did not alter the crux of the event only my reactions to it. Fate

Back to what KrazyGamer was saying, the theory of Quantum Mechanics. Stephen Hawkings has a theory, supposedly provable, that says that "the reaction to an action, occurs before the action happens".
In other words the famous "there is an equal and opposite reaction to every action" is proved right, but the order in which it happens is reversed.
So, if in fact the reaction happens before the action, where would the fate theory fit in?
This theory is very interesting to me and can encompass alot of what you all are saying.

effect BEFORE cause. i actually ran across it in a dean koontz novel. intriguing. but to put in my two cents, regardless of the order of events, the outcome would be the same if fate exists. think about this: a match is struck against a matchbox and consequently is set ablaze. if it happened in reverse, the match would actually be alight BEFORE it was struck. but either way, fate still says that the match will be struck and it will burn.

o_o...okay, i can't explain for sh't.

mmumm, interesting to consider for every action there is an equal and oppoosite reaction. The mouse on the pad acts upon the pad by the force of gravity acting upon it, the pad reacts with an equal and opposite force upon the mouse?
They are in equlibrium because the mouse remains on the pad. The action - reaction is mutually co-existing, not separate events.

In response to Decius

D -" Well, I believe in a very logical sense of fate: If everything is cause and effect, then everything is pre-determined because the future is an effect of our present, which is the cause."

MC - If everything is based on cause and effect, we have a chicken and egg situation. What was the first cause? Our world of duality makes it extremely difficult to think outside the boundaries of up/down, start/finish, left/right, cause/effect. We relate to things "sensually" and then begin to build relationships on our sensual understanding of things.

MC - An instance of this is to define "define". ie: use the dictionary for the meaning of "define". You will only understand the explanation of the word "define" if you have a pre-built relationship with those other words. If the other words had no meaning to you, and you looked up the meaning to each of those words, we get stuck in an ever expanding continuum. But if we begin to understand the concepts of each of the words sensually and relatively speaking, then we can at least convince ourselves that we understand the meanings and definitions.

D-"The answer to your question is yes, if you knew your fate, then you would have the choice to change it."

MC -IMHO, to know or not know our fate, we can still "change" it. I think a mistake we often make is that we might think fate will determine who we are, and especially when relating it to death of the body. So many apply the same set of rules to astrology. I feel it is more accurate to view 'fate' as 'karmic influences' and planet movements as "astrological influences', neither rule or determine who, when or what we are completely but we are influenced by them. Again though, we have to try to step outside our sense perceptions that make this world of duality and it's laws seem so real.

D - "Basically, knowledge of the future changes that future because that "fortune" or "fate" was based on a reality prior to you knowing what the future held."

MC - But what if we could see something, knowing it is going o happen but we know it is necessary for our development and so we allow it to be fulfilled. It certainly seems obvious to me that someone such as Jesus was completely aware of what was going to transpire at his crucifixion and had prior knowledge. He could have changed those events but for certain reasons knew that it had to happen in that way.

MC - Because of our senses and our hypnosis of the reality of time and space, we believe that we are constantly going from a to b or that the present is constantly getting kicked up the ass by the future. In fact, when we attempt to remove that conceptual framework of time vs space, it seems that none of our laws of physics hold true in their truest sense. They are only meaningful in this dimension of matter.

MC - Consider for a moment another chicken and egg concept. Does consciousness create matter or matter create consciousness?

MC - Certainly a way to understand this is to think about the creation process. When you want to create something, it begins from thought, from ideas and slowly materialises, the more you focus open that thought or idea. The thoughts and ideas are not only much easier concieved than their material equivalent but also exist prior to their material existence (which creates our concept of time). Thought and ideas exist outside the realm of 1+1=2. Attempt to measure thoughts, measure imagination, measure ideas and attempt place the much accepted framework of time vs space around them and you can begin to understand the fallacy of time and space.

So is, time and space real? I once spent 3 days and night without sleep pondering this. I wouldn't like to try and convince anyone they are not real. To do so, one has to first "give" them a reality they do not have, then once they have a reality of some sort, you can attempt to prove them false. Whether or not that is an acceptable answer, I was satisfied enough to sleep

Just my $5 worth

A penny's worth of thought?
My perception of Decius's statement to mean that having a moment of dejavu, I had a chance to change my fate (and others) perhaps they continued until I made the right choice (i.e. learned what I needed to understand) or perhaps having changed fate, it continued to change until it returned to it's original line?

Ok, I have to admit that I am pretty shaky in my ideas of fate but here is my two-cents about it: I believe that there are certain thins in life that are pre-determined, such as the exact moment you die, which people have an effect on you, and general things like that. But I believe that how you meet these people, how you die is all a matter of choice-there are many different paths you can take but eventually it will lead to a certain person, it will lead you to a certain place, but how you get there is all up to you. I strongly believe though that death is pre-determined because that is the most inevitable thing in life. You can escape doing certain things but the one thing you will never be able to escape is death. I think that the choices you make in life will bring you to your death but you will only die on the exact moment you were meant to.

I often find myself pondering the existence of fate in this place. Each conclusion I reach matches the one preceeding it which is that fate doesnt exist. The only thing I know as a human being is that I control what I do (in a physical sense). Fate does not lead us through everyday activities. Things happen all by chance including room for error ( such as making mistakes or having accidents). If fate did exist, it would have to exist as an individual whole for everyone and not individually within us each. Our interactment with eachother should be enough for people to realize that fate doesnt exist. Things are constantly changing meaning fate would have to be very refined and precisely accurate without flaws for everything to take place as it should. Which to me sounds silly.

For those of you not following me right now im gonna break it down like this. Think of the daily things some of you do, even the little things like going to the grocery store and getting whatever items you need. Everyone in the store has to at least share some sort of fate with you due to the constant interactment of people. For example the checkout person when your ready to purchase your items. (Say his name is Bill). In order for Bill and yourself to serve your fates, he must interact with you and take your money for the items you purchased. Hense it would have to be a joined fate. And even then you would have to include animals and insects( like the mosquito that bit you and now you went and bought some OFF). Happens by chance. Something so complicated as to programming everyday activities between billions and billions of people couldnt even take place in a million computers. Think about that.

If you wanted to get technical a form of fate does exist. The fate if neccesity. Obvioulsy every living human being is going to breathe, eat, sleep, and die etc. But as far as non neccesity things, we choose what takes place.


sorry if that was too farfetched for anyone, you all have really good opinions.

This is all good and fine (not to mention confusing), but what if you introduce religion. I mean how could God predetermine our fate (through mathematical computations, hocus pocus, or whatever) and at the same time justify sending some of us to heaven and some to hell. He couldn't. So this leaves us with the conclusion that we are all separated from *mathematical* fate. eg. bowling pins are destined to fall over in a pre-set pattern due to the angle of which the ball hits the head pin, the velocity, the weight, etc. At the same time, you most certainly can't prove (yet) that the brain/conscience works with 100% predictable results as a response to stimuli. eg. 100 people in alternate and perfectly similar universes (DON'T go there!) will not always respond the same to a like introduction into the environment. The point is, that I beleive that we are able to make our own decisions unlike inanimate object which are governed by laws of physics.