We didn't exist before we got here - Page 3

Summit, don't forget that the brain still doesn't exist in many lifeforms. Infact, the brain is only a relatively new design formed a little under a billion years ago.

Of course, this could have simply slipped your mind, as it looks like you're doing a bit of reading on the subject.

Xanadoool, yes you are correct that the brain doesn't exist in many lifeforms. I never disagreed with that concept; as I wrote before: "in biology (relating to non-animal organisms) we tend to replace the term 'brain' with nucleus. The nucleus functions similarily as the brain does". And then when I said:
"Our brain is the main component of the central nervous system and therefore is responsible in controlling, monitoring and regulating all bodily structures/functions. Without a brain your dead, its that simple"- If you hadn't noticed, I was refering to the human brain

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There is no other organism that has been more biologically advanced than the species homeo sapiens.

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It is speculative because neither you nor any living or dead scientist or researcher knows that for certain, not on this planet and definitely not within the universe, its a rediculous assumption.

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My arguement is that the spiritual mechanism is only present in the human brain

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Yes this I understood, that you believed or assumed a certain stance on the issue, but I'm afraid you have given no good reason past assumption based argument, what knowledge do you have of the workings of animals brains and societies and languages that allows you to feel you can even accurately compare let alone determine a lack of spirituality.

This argument, or more accurately, theory, is not even fully known or understood within humans. It is all theory and therefore speculative in nature.

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So Leftwood, would you say that spirituality is a form of energy?

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A quite reasonable possibility.

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If so, then it seems that you would be agreeing with me that the physical form generates the spiritual realm.

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Not at all, its all a physical form. And I would not dream of making the assumption of knowing if the chicken came before the egg.

If energy takes different forms at different speeds or frequencies, then it would be more likely that an energy based "spirit" created the physical form to which you refer.

Either way, I wouldn't know for certain, and any definitive claim would be speculative and assumptive.

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You ask what do I mean by 'living' and how it is reliant upon the existance of a brain:

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Actually I asked for a handful of specifications of your definitions and opinions on a few different concepts relating to the subject.

But I don't see the point of emphasizing the brain in the manner that you do, for it deserves none. The human body cannot live without a heart, stomach, lungs, or any other vital organ designed to sustain its function.

Leftwood: please don't claim it speculative, if you can't put forward evidence against this 'theory'. you need to read what i've said again, because I never made claim that humans were the most advanced in the universe- only on earth. It has been clearly proven scientifically that humans are the most biologically advanced organisms on earth ever . It is fact, not fiction!

As majoring in biology atm, I have read numerous scientific journals and articles on this issue of spirituality and its existence in humans yet not other organisms. It seems that you are not sure about the validity of this 'theory' ... you may want to try google scholar, just as a start.

You claim the spiritual realm is a form of physical energy, yet you say that the spiritual realm created the physical realm. This is a paradox

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But I don't see the point of emphasizing the brain in the manner that you do, for it deserves none.

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The human brain generates the spiritual realm. The human brain is central to spirituality. Understand the concept that without the brain, one has no knowledge. That is the point.

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The human body cannot live without a heart, stomach, lungs, or any other vital organ designed to sustain its function.

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Yes that is right- yet irrelevent to this discussion. You still seem confused because we are discussing the direct link between the human brain and its relevence to the spiritual realm as well as how physical/spiritual existence is dependent on the human brain

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It has been clearly proven scientifically that humans are the most biologically advanced organisms on earth ever . It is fact, not fiction!

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What you fail to grasp is the limit of human knowledge and ability to make such judgements. We do not know the entire history of biological enitities that have existed on this planet, it is fine to say that humans are the most developed to our knowledge, not as an absolute of past or even present.

And no, you did not specify the earth untill now. And my point of the universe is still relevant.

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As majoring in biology atm, I have read numerous scientific journals and articles on this issue of spirituality and its existence in humans yet not other organisms.

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How does one measure spirituality in organisms they cannot communicate with? This is also why I asked you to define your posistion on or idea of what spirituality even is, among other terms relevant to the conversation that hold multiple and debated meanings.

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You claim the spiritual realm is a form of physical energy, yet you say that the spiritual realm created the physical realm. This is a paradox

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I made no such claim, I said that spirituality being a form of energy was quite possible. I said nothing of anything creating the other as anything but a possibility. Perhaps like with so many other things, you should clarify your working definition of what a spiritual realm is.

As for the issue of paradox, I personally have come to the conclusion that paradoxes and contradictions are part of the natural working order. We just don't understand them or know the other factors that make them non paradoxical.

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The human brain generates the spiritual realm.

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Oh? What is this spiritual realm you speak so matter of factly about?

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The human brain is central to spirituality.

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What is spirituality, and are you certain, and if so, how do you know?

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Understand the concept that without the brain, one has no knowledge. That is the point.

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Now knowledge is the significant point in the topic of the brain instead of life or spirituality? Please, lets keep some sort of context here.

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You still seem confused because we are discussing the direct link between the human brain and its relevence to the spiritual realm

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Funny, I could have sworn within this same post you said knowledge was the point as well. Color me confused indeed.

Not to mention once again that this spiritual realm is still as of yet undefined by you. Leaving the conversation on its relevance to anything fairly stalled, perhaps you will be kind enough to address this for once.

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We do not know the entire history of biological enitities that have existed on this planet, it is fine to say that humans are the most developed to our knowledge, not as an absolute of past or even present.

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heard of evolution? The origin of life dates back to approx 3.5-4 billion years ago. since then, new kinds of organisms have evolved and others have disappeared through natural selection(variation, inheritance, competition, reproductive excess), climatic changes or natural catastrophes as the earth itself has evolved. During the Cenozoic era (modern life- 65mya to present) more and more modern families and groups of multi-cellular organisms including mammals evolved. Among the primates, humans are on the same evolutionary line as primitive apes (hominoids).The history of modern humans involves the use of tools, language, diet, culture and development of agriculture and domestication of animals. The adaptation of bi-pedalism (standing upright) is an advanced trait that allowed early hominoids to detect predators, grasping food, holding young, building nests. Modern humans with a larger brain capacity is a sophisticated modification. Evidence also shows the ability to carry out rituals, art and burials suggests we and other hominoids are capable of abstract thought. The key to being human is language. Through language we can gain knowledge. And through knowledge we can expand on understanding spirituality.

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How does one measure spirituality in organisms they cannot communicate with?

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scientists don't need to communicate with organisms to obtain the answer to that question. that would be impossible. Scientists can't just simply 'measure spirituality'. But through anatomical and biochemical evidence in brain analysis, comparitive DNA/amino acid sequences studies, comparitive morhpology, cladistic analysis and behavioural ethology, scientists have found the sophistication of the human brain way more advanced than any other organism (including the ability to have a spiritual realm).



Ok, now I can clarify how I view spirituality:
The term "spirituality" is a confusing term. Usually, when one mentions "spirituality", the first thought in many people's minds is that of "religion". Spirituality does not have to incorporate religion . I'll extend on that further below.

'Spiritual' to me is a form of feeling or emotion that is not tangible or material. It is a behavioural biosocial mechanism generated by the physical human brain in response to our suffering, our need to question our identity, purpose of life and the unknown. It is the quest or belief in something greater such as a god or a force or essence surrounding us. It is a naturally advanced trait which has been modifed over the homo group's generation. Spirituality is most often ecclesiastical. The physical realm creates the spiritual realm.

But, society and religion lead their followers in many different directions replacing the core meanings with moralistic and idealistic terms in hopes of obtaining attention by answering those "big questions" to life, death, the after-life, and a god.

Ok...to me spirituality is knowledged based. To others it is faith-based.
Faith-based spirituality:
is the belief and trust that things will be as they will be in the future. Main-stream religion in most societies generally teach that there are no definitive answers to the "great mysteries" of life and death. This approach to spirituality creates a fear-based environment based on gods. Believers place their lives into the hands of an unseen being in the hope that all will "work out for the best."

Spirituality to me is not about a religion- ill explain this...
Knowledge-based spirituality understands and strives to progress and achieve through life toward one's own vision and goals. The "great mysteries" become topics of personal research. With an open mind, answers can be obtained from the environment and the Universe. This way one can take life's path, using their own desires as a guide, independently of a faith-based god. And as a result one can obtain self-actualisation.

spirituality exists with or withought the brain, in every form of existence. What we humans have is the ability to be aware of spirituality. Our brain makes this possible.
what you said of the suffering of the world resulting in us calling for spirituality, a 'feeling' is not spirituality.

Angel of Death, as I said it all comes down to how one defines 'spirituality'. The result of suffering is incredibly important for stimulating the spiritual realm. If interacting civilizations weren't fear-based societies 'spirituality' wouldn't be at its extreme. What you have said is your opinion...that does not make it strictly correct. As for me I believe that there is no one absolute truth about spiritiualty, however some beliefs seem more valid than others.

Summit, making claims of absolutes in the realm of science especially in reference to ancient organic life forms generally unpreservable, not withstanding the possibilities of extra terrestrial life forms (be it microbes or little green men).

Not to mention all sorts of falsified and mistaken information gathered, interpreted, or simply made up.

The point being that there have been massive wipe outs, introductions of foreign matter, and totally differing series of varying degrees advancements and regressions in evolutions of life on this planet alone.

And new evidence of new and extinct creatures appear daily.

Which permit for no such assumption.

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The key to being human is language.

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Nearly all animals show signs and forms of communication.

We cannot understand them and have no accurate form of judgement, and again are unable to compare to most extinct and existing species, known or otherwise.

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But through anatomical and biochemical evidence in brain analysis, comparitive DNA/amino acid sequences studies, comparitive morhpology, cladistic analysis and behavioural ethology, scientists have found the sophistication of the human brain way more advanced than any other organism (including the ability to have a spiritual realm).

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You have made no substantial point in your explanation of spirituality nor why it is even considered and "advanced" capability.

Man has shown no great achievement by making use of rare opposable thumbs, brain size, and development.

We yap like dogs barking at seemingly nothing, we point out the obvious by labeling everything that already exists, we create complicated ways to feed, make life convenient, and kill.

We can't even be sure that we aren't just "advanced" bacteria in the bowels of some entity, perhaps god even.

We are less than a speck in the universe, we know jack shit.

But it sure is fun to try to find out.

what about those people that believe in the mind.
The mind is described in some cultures as being the seat of ones conciousness, intelligence and personality. Its not regarded as being physical and is seperate from the physical brain. some believe that the physical brain simply enables the mind to interface with the body.

I find a computer based analogy an easy way to expleain it.

If the human brain is the hardware of the computer, than the mind is the software that runs on it. The software is none physical.

I believe that the "spirit" or "soul" as we call it could be an energy or entity that takes on a physical body, when we are conceived it is the physcial hardware that is conceived, the software (soul) and the personality it takes on in life (the mind) exist on a seperate level.

clarifying to others, in this context the mind is the one who sees, hears, feels and smells, i.e the one viweing all these electrcal signals as one, whole universe.

summit, yes I agree, there's a greater chance that you move towards spirituality if you have suffered a great deal in this world.

Even if you look it up in a dictionary, spirituality will be 'experiance of the divine'. Simply put, spirituality is getting to know God and your innerself. agreed? Ofcourse, as you said, there is no single defination of spirituality, this is just a very vague term which points to the right direction.
These are not opiions btw.

leftwood:

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making claims of absolutes in the realm of science especially in reference to ancient organic life forms generally unpreservable, not withstanding the possibilities of extra terrestrial life forms (be it microbes or little green men)

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You may be unaware that scientific 'claims' don't prove truth in all- they are just theories. Sometimes however science can be more valid. You seem confused...why are you juxtaposing the history of life with extra terrestrial beings. hmmm, I can't see the connection there.

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Not to mention all sorts of falsified and mistaken information gathered, interpreted, or simply made up

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what false information?

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You have made no substantial point in your explanation of spirituality nor why it is even considered and "advanced" capability

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I identified the methods used, i did not explain results because that wouldn't be appropriate to post up on this site...considering its complexity. if you want an explination...try reading into neurobiology, ethology, pyschology and genetics- if you can understand it

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Man has shown no great achievement by making use of rare opposable thumbs, brain size, and development.
We yap like dogs barking at seemingly nothing, we point out the obvious by labeling everything that already exists, we create complicated ways to feed, make life convenient, and kill.

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hmmm, is this metaphorical? are you sure your alright.



Rajpal: your hardware/software concept is interesting. I've thought of something similar before. I appreciate that you have mentioned that because it is one of my favorite things to think about. Is our personality or 'soul' physical? if not what is it? in my view that I have established before I mention that the mind is a form of intangible energy yet it is physical. Yet this is a reason not the answer.

Angel of Death:

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spirituality is getting to know God and your innerself. agreed?

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Not agreed. read my views above again. Spirituality does not have to incorporate religion and/or a 'God'. However I do agree with you that 'spirituality' isn't definable and is vague. Does attempting to define it point in the right direction? most of the time- no; yet that depends in what direction one is looking for and whether the direction seems 'right' for an individual or as for society.

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...why are you juxtaposing the history of life with extra terrestrial beings. hmmm, I can't see the connection there.

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I will further attempt to dumb it down for you, we don't know the origin of any form of life on this planet, how it began, if it is designed by evolution or a whisper of God, or is simply transplanted intentionally, randomly, or otherwise.

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what false information?

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Any and all, known and not.

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if you want an explination...try reading into neurobiology, ethology, pyschology and genetics- if you can understand it

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So you don't know or understand to how to explain it yourself.

summit, 'experiance of the divine' doesn't have to mean religion or a christian, muslim or jewish God. If you have pre conceived notions about God, then replace divine with experiancing your true nature.
Read any of the spiritual books, from the hindu vedas to buddhisim to the modern day 'power of now', they all point towards the same thing, that in essence the whole universe is one, that there is only one ultimate reality.

leftwood:

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we don't know the origin of any form of life on this planet, how it began, if it is designed by evolution or a whisper of God, or is simply transplanted intentionally, randomly, or otherwise.

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this is not a reason why you attempted to juxtapose origins of life on earth and its connection to extra-terrestrial life. You can't claim 'we don't know' when in fact it should be 'you don't know'.

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Any and all, known and not.

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If you claim that any if not all information is false then your opinion is obliterated and therefore invalid.

I did not explain results because that wouldn't be appropriate to post up on this site...considering its complexity. I do know many scientific explinations for spirituality. If you choose to prejudge, so be it; its your loss for not being proactive enough in reading on this area of concern.



Angel of Death: I am aware that experience of the divine doesn't have to have religious connotations. As you have read I am a believer in spirituality but not religion. I am open to hear other views (even though I already have established beliefs, it is interesting in its own way) especially from the hindu/buddhist side. I am reading into Taoism atm which has similarities with a lot of eastern philosophy.