We didn't exist before we got here - Page 2

possibly spiritualy
not so sure bout that
we could have then again we could not have
i dont think we'll ever find the truth out till after we are dead
maybe not even then
but every one is allowed an opion

we can't have existed before we were conceived. its not possible to have existed spiritually before we were conceived, because one's spiritual realm is generated within the brain. Without a brain your not alive.

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How is this possible to have existed before we were conceived?

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Given we do not know our history to that degree, we may very well have been concieved before, in this dimension or others.

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we can't have existed before we were conceived. its not possible to have existed spiritually before we were conceived, because one's spiritual realm is generated within the brain. Without a brain your not alive.

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Nonsense, a brain may only exist to experience the physical world at the vibrational frequency that creates the solid five senses and world we currently experience with them.

These senses have no posistive corrolation or dependancy upon having a spirit which may just be our pure energy form that exists on another vibrational frequency independant of our entire physical body.

Imagine an electric current constantly flowing through a house, then one day a rechargeable toy robot is brought to the house and plugged in. That energy will stay in its electric form inside and independant of the robot shell, but will power it and experience life in a whole new vessel.

Maybe it experiences a new type of cognizance, one that doesn't even recognize itself in pure form or that it is only a piece of its greater whole self as part of the electro magnetic spectrum.

Seems quite feasible to me.

your brain is basical a lump of body tissue
that will end up in the ground when you are dead
you cant live in a body with out it but here
we are talking about living out side a body

well said leftwood.

well, technically 'we' don't live after we are dead or before we are born. Rather, as lefty put it, the lifeforce has always existed

As our race becomes more acquanted with quantum mechanics, and we find easier ways of describing the discoveries we have made in such areas of science, I believe it will be easier to discuss this topic, as it has to do with forth dimensional thinking.

The classic story of the chicken or the egg, how about this one...

If the universe was created by what we remember of it, what came first, the universe or our memory of it?

You can't remember something that doesn't exist, but you can't exist in something that wasn't remembered.

Leftwood, you only tried to explain a spiritual realm that exists in humans. But that doesn't give evidence that we exist before we are conceived- which is what this discussion is about. What are you basing this on, can you provide evidence that we exist before we are conceived?

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If the universe was created by what we remember of it, what came first, the universe or our memory of it?

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I don't think you have thought about this enough. The universe came first- obviously. The universe wasn't created by what we remeber of it. noone was around when the universe was created, but that doesn't mean it wasn't created! Things existed before human memory. modern human beings (Homeo sapiens) only arose approx 120,000years ago.

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you can't exist in something that wasn't remembered

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. This is completly untrue. memory is irrelevent. As I said above you can't say that nothing existed pre-120,000 years ago.

true
also most people dont remember being a baby yet they were
and i've never met any one who can remember being in their mums womb yet every one was once

Summit sulo, only in a spiritual way can you exist eternally, obviously 'we' couldn't have exsted before we were born, becasue that 'I' requires a brain

Angel of Death, I understand what you are trying to say- that spirituality can seem it exists on another sub-concious level for eternity. You may think I can't grasp the concept that spirituality can or may exist externally from the mind. However I don't exactly agree, because without our brain we don't have spirituality.

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can you provide evidence that we exist before we are conceived?

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No more than you can provide evidence to the contrary.

Exist in what form? Yes we exist as the body of energy that takes different shapes and forms at different frequencies.

And I'd like to add to this...

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Without a brain your not alive.

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How many plants have brains? Not even all creatures have brains.

For those believing in a God, do they think it has a brain?

what form?- physical. As I see it, the human physical form (involving the brain) can generate the spiritual realm.

All plants have brains. In biology (relating to non-animal organisms) we tend to replace the term 'brain' with nucleus. The nucleus functions similarily as the brain does. Just to fill you in if your interested- all plants are eukaryotes- having a nucelus. Yes your correct that not all creatures have brains, they are refered to as prokaryotes (having no nucleus). However all of this is irrelevent to this discussion, because we are talking about the concept of 'God' which is a human construct and restricted to within the human brain. We humans are the most complex living organisms ever to exist on earth. We are biologically advanced organisms; especially within the brain region. Our brain is so complex that the realm of spirituality is naturally developed and can be generated if stimulated. When I said "without a brain your not alive" i was refering to the human brain. The human brain is the only brain that has the genetic characteristic of the spiritual mechanism.

Summit, you seem to have missed where I was coming from... in the forth dimensional universe, everything including the beginning and end of time, and everything inbetween, exists at the same moment. So you, or at least the essence of what you were, are and will be, exists throughout time.

But as you don't seem versed in quantum mechanics, I can hardly expect that you would understand this way of thinking. But you must understand, to say out right that the universe came before us, is such linear thinking, it's a little laughable. No offence intended.

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However all of this is irrelevent to this discussion, because we are talking about the concept of 'God' which is a human construct and restricted to within the human brain.

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This you do not know for certain.

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We humans are the most complex living organisms ever to exist on earth.

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Speculative assumption.

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Our brain is so complex that the realm of spirituality is naturally developed and can be generated if stimulated.

The human brain is the only brain that has the genetic characteristic of the spiritual mechanism.

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There is more than one definition of spirit and spirituality, so you must clarify.

If you are refering to a theorized God gene, I have not personally heard of any definitive conclusion on that theory nor on our ability to know all the individual let alone combined functions of genes and their protiens

The same goes for the brain in general. Though isolations have been made, the last I personally heard was that the whole of the operations of both genes and brains is still not known.

But what I'm specifically curious about is what stimulus and responses have led to the determination of a "spiritual mechanism", and how such a stimulus is properly translated or isolated for response and recognition within non human animals, especially more biologically advanced animals as dolphins.

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what form?- physical.

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Energy is physical.

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When I said "without a brain your not alive" i was refering to the human brain.

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For me to better follow and understand your logic I would also desire your operative definition of life and alive, and how it is reliant upon the existance of a brain.

If you are meaning personality or an "individual" then you must further define what you believe a living human to be and exist of, specifically in terms of what you are defining as a personality or "self".

I'm not sure I see where you are getting so many definitives from still debated ideas.

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at least the essence of what you were, are and will be, exists throughout time

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Xanadoool: Well that all depends on what one defines 'existence' as. It seems that you are attempting to define your 'existence' as a body holding a collection of atoms. I am versed in quantum mechanics, yet this is irrelevent. It is irrelevent because 'existence' is life. Life is commenced when one is conceived and ends when one dies.

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This you do not know for certain.

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Leftwood: I do believe that spirituality is strictly a human social construct (as explained below)

Why do you think that humans being the most complex living organisms ever to exist on earth is a speculative assumption?
There is no other organism that has been more biologically advanced than the species homeo sapiens.

Ok, this is my concept of spirituality:
Understanding our spirituality requires attention to its social and biological nature. Spirituality is a behavioural trait found in humans that has evolved over time as a social construct(equipped and required by our biological inheritance). People seek their spirituality or 'inner self' to find meaning, values, connection to life and the unknown.
Instead of identifying the stimulis to determine the spiritual mechanism, I think it is more appropriate to look at the causes of it. To identify the causes, look at the reasons for a spiritual realm. I believe the response or the consequence of this spiritual mechanism, has resulted in humans constructing ideologies of a 'super-being' such as god to try and search for truth, purpose and reason in life. My arguement is that the spiritual mechanism is only present in the human brain and therefore, leftwood, I don't think it is present in organisms that are considered relatively intelligent such as you mentioned- the dolphin.

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Energy is physical

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So Leftwood, would you say that spirituality is a form of energy? If so, then it seems that you would be agreeing with me that the physical form generates the spiritual realm.

You ask what do I mean by 'living' and how it is reliant upon the existance of a brain:
- The cell theory defines 'living organisms':
1. all organisms are made of cells and the products of cells
2. all cells come from pre-existing cells
3. the cell is the smallest organisational unit
- all life is controlled by DNA. it is the blueprint of life.
- DNA is a code for the production of proteins
- proteins are machines that construct cells
- cells are the fundamental units of life- they build all biological structures and undertake all biological functions
- DNA is copied and passed from generation to generation of cells
- modifications of this process over time have generated life on earth
Our brain is the main component of the central nervous system and therefore is responsible in controlling, monitoring and regulating all bodily structures/functions. Without a brain your dead, its that simple.