The right to dress provocatively? - Page 5

(Just thought of this now. So don't blame me for the late arguement)

If you are walking through the bad part of town it doesn't matter what you wear really. I mean think of a person waiting on the steps for a woman to come by, now how many women do you think are going to go by him throughout the night, 2-3. But, the man doesn't know how many will so he doesn't want to chance it, he will go for the first one to walk by. You would agree?

So therefore the clothes didn't increase the risk, so they can't really be a factor. I mean, yes if a girl had less clothes on it will please the rapist more, but it wouldn't deter him from his job. Why would a rapist care for what the girl was wearing, he is going to take it off in 5 seconds.

Which means that the rapist is the one choosing, and you could be the target no matter what you are wearing. Which means that you have no way of stopping it. Which then means that it is not your fault.

There are always going to be ways of preventing something from happening. So you can't say that if there was a way for her to avoid it so she deserved it. How was she to know what was to happen. If she was told she was going to be raped that night, then yeah she should of tried to prevent it. But you are saying that we should always be ready for anything and that is completly impossible.

You have to think what provocative means. It contains the word provoke, to stir up purposely or to incite. This is a choice thing; to provoke or not to provoke. If you choose not to "stir" things up, then don't wear or do anything to do so. Also, no matter what anyone says, we do stereotype or profile (to be more present day politically correct). Thus, providing the stimlus of wearing something in particular or acting a certain way to provoke, will usually provide the appropriate response.

And the rapist goes away free? and there is no such thing as a victim?

yes but then you would have to protect yourself form every other natural disaster and offenders. You can't protect yourself from everything. And to walk around living in fear is just as bad as walking around unprotected.

It isn't a job to be protected. You shouldn't be forced into protecting yourself from the elements. To say that it is your job to make up for other peoples lack of intellegence and moral is saying that we don't have freedom. It isn't somones job to do anything because of someone else.

So it definatly should not be someones fault because someone else has a problem. It should only be the person with the problems fault. The fact that you took the risk is stupid but it still doesn't put fault.

I just don't see how you could think it is their fault for someone elses problem.

I acknowledge it, because I came up with it. It made the realization before you did.

And I don't want to blame the rapists so that the rapists feel bad. I want to blame the rapists so that the victim doesn't feel like now they are worthless and just a tool. We don't blame so that people feel bad, we blame so that people could get on with life.

And here is my theory, if you know all the facts and preventions about something, and you still don't follow even the simplest rules, then I am not going to care when you feel the consequences.

But the one problem is that first we have to educate, and I don't see anyone educating women. They should be taught it when they are my age, in high school. And you can't tell them to go out to classes and stuff at an older age because some people can't afford the classes or just don't have the time because of their family or job.

I am not saying educated yourself on what rape is, I mean educating people on ways to protect yourself. And most people can't do that.

It would be great if every female could know stuff like martial arts to protect themselves, but at the older ages, they are just too busy.

And we aren't treating them like poor helpless children. We are to treat them like people that got caught in a bad situation unvoluntarily.

A person would feel worthless because of the psychological thought prosess after one is raped. That is why we tell them that it isn't their fault. So that they don't think they are worthless and so that they can move on in life. But to tell someone that after they have been raped that they are to be blamed might just lead to someones suicide.

Of course after you are raped you should try and get over it, but to get over it you have to realize the fact that it wasn't your fault. You WERE the victim and this wasn't something you deserved. That makes you understand that this can be prevented because it shows that it isn't inevitable and that you can prevent it.

But I agree that you shouldn't spend your life being afraid about it and that you should get over it.

So Decius, if a person has a mansion, and a beautiful yard, they are indeed setting themselves up for robbery, because they are showing their wealth, and therefor, are not victims when the robber (who could not control himself) broke in and took their material possessions.

Get real. That logic is so wrong. The rapist is a the perpetrator and regardless of female dress, should be given the max in jail time for harming her in any way. The girl could be a virgin with an intention of getting married. Even if she isn't, it is her body, and no one else ever has the right to touch her. NO is no.
And disregarding that with or without a certain type of clothing, is definitely wrong to state here. You could be inciting someone to be careless and without regard rape someone. Because they saw this logic. (Illogic actually)

Yes, but that is saying that the reason you are raped is because you dressed provacativly, which is actually rarly true because usually you are raped because you are being stalked by someone you know or you are at a party and are too drunk.

The dressing provocativly is a side thing. It doesn't always bring the rapist in. It is usually something else. And if you were to have to carry guns around an carry body guards around, you'd be throwing away your freedom because you live in fear.

What if it were one of guards? Your plan might back fire, but of course with your logic, wouldn't that mean you would have to have a plan to back up that idea.

With your logic, you might be safe, but you are also stating that you can trust no one.

Thanks Dreamer for adding in you ideas so I didn't always have to read Decius's ideas. Though I am not saying you are boring Decius.

Date rape? Aquainted Rape?

Those are two big types or rape. And they don't involve having the person dress provacativly. All styles of Teen Rape occure not because of the cloths. That is where I got my validity. From having to spend 15 hours of my life learning about it in shcool from assemblies.

People don't get raped over clothes. Ask any person that rapes someone and I doubt it is because her clothes we smashing.

I have never looked at a girl and said I had to have her because of her clothes. She would also have to have other characteristics that would draw me to her. One, is she vulnerable. Am I going to have to wait around to catch her. Is she going to struggle. I have to know if it is worth it. And it would really matter what she is wearing if I will taking it off. It would have to be the person I wanted. Not the accessories.

Yes, I do know why people get raped. What makes you think I don't. They get raped because rapist enjoy the pleasure of either the sex, or the empowerment.

The reason it is good for them to be drunk or druged really is so that they are more vulnerable. That is why they are mostly raped that way. You are thinking of a woman being picked off the streets and being raped. But that doesn't happen. It is done differently because of the new tactics of law enforcement. The rapist has to stalk his victim which means picking the victim ahead of time. And if the pick the victim ahead of time, then apparently close doesn't matter because at the time when she is most vulnerable (the time the rapist is waiting for) she might be in a big fur coat.

I understand the mind of a criminal master ok. Seeing as how I have seen Law and Order enough to start to wonder how do you out smart the cops.

Rape isn't something that you walk out your door, find someone good looking and go grab them. It is a tad bit technical. And such delights as them dressing nice has to be sacraficed just for the catch.

Read all of these.. You will notice it doesn't mention anything about clothes

http://www.hendersonville-pd.org/PreventionTips/RapePreventionTips.html


http://www.fpca.com/daterape.htm

http://www.teenoutreach.com/Online_Help/se/rape-prev.htm

http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/safety.html

http://www.wcstx.com/prvntrpe.htm

Also, I found two things to be interesting. from http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/safety.html

"Know the real picture. Most rapes (85%) are committed by non-strangers and in familiar, social situations. "

"Be aware that men who rape often use alcohol to exploit your vulnerability. They tend to try to make you drink more than you intended. "

These both seem to support my case.

Dugbug I am so impressed with your insights and obvious intelligence at only 14 years! Thank you for having the courage to dispute the myths of rape.

I have never stated that I endorse provocative dress, which in fact is a matter of individualized perception anyway. There dress codes at work and schools that prohibit indecent dress in my area anyway. Regardless of this...it is indeed a myth that what one wears is linked to rape....at least in the articles I have been reading. For everyones's benefit I will list all of the myths published by the Los Angeles Commission on Assaults Against Women.

Rape Myths And Realities

Myth: It could never happen to me.
Reality: ALL WOMEN are potential rape victims. 1 out of every 3 women over the age of 14 would be raped at least once in her lifetime.

Myth: Most rapes occur as a "spur of the moment" act in a dark alley by a stranger.
Reality: About 82% of the rapes are wholly or partially planned(Menechem Amir), and often occur in the victim's home. Many times the offender is a relative, friend, neighbor, or other aquaintance of the victim. A rapist will rape again and again, generally in the same area of town and in the same manner.

Myth: Rapes only happen to young women.
Reality: Rape victims range in ages from 4 months to 92 years (Newsweek, Nov. 1975) Women of all ages, socioeconomic groups, neighborhoods and lifestyles can be victims.

Myth: Most rapes are interracial.
Reality: The overwhelming majority of rapes involve persons of the same race.

Myth: Rapes take place in unfamiliar territory.
Reality: In LA 40% of all rapes occur at home and increasing numberof rapes and sexual assaults take place DURING THE DAY IN NEIGHBORHOOD SHOPPING CENTER PARKING LOTS.

Myth: Rape is primarily a sexual crime.
Reality: Rape is a VIOLENT assault that is acted out sexually. It violates not only the woman's personal integrity, but also her sense of safety and control over her environment.

Myth: Rape is a non violent crime.
Reality: Rape IS a violent crime. 87% of rapists either carry a weapon or threaten the victim with violence or death. Nearly all women who call the crisis lines state that their worst fear was that they were going to be killed. Forcible rape is INCREASING in this country, more than any other violent crime.

Myth: The rapist is a sexually unfullfilled man carried away by a sudden uncontrollable surge of desire.
Reality: Most rapes are planned. According to a study in a New Jersey prison, ALL the rapists studied had had available sexual relationships! The prime MOTIVES FOR RAPE ARE THE ASPECTS OF POWER AND CONTROL THAT ARE INVOLVED.

Myth: A rapist is easy to spot in a crowd.
Reality: Most rapists appear normal. Most are married and young. They can be of any colr or socioeconomic status.

MYTH: WOMEN ARE "ASKING FOR IT " BY THEIR DRESS OR BEHAVIOR>
Reality: Again, MOST RAPES ARE PLANNED! "PROVOCATIVE BEHAVIOR" is usually SET BY MALE STANDARDS. (In Victorian times, an ankle was considered provocative). Is any dress or behavior justification for an assault on another? The underlying assumption is that women are asking for it, just because they are women.

Myth: A woman will consent, then out of revenge or hysteria, "cry rape".
Reality: A justice of New York State Supreme Court said, "False rape charges are NOT frequently made; only about 2.5% of all rape and related charges are determined to be false.....the same percentage as other felonies.

Myth: Women secretly want to be raped.
Reality: Fantasy is npot the real thing and women who do fantasize about rape usually think of rape only as aggressive sex and do not know it for what it really is: A VIOLENT < OFTEN BRUTAL TERRORIZING AND HUMILIATING ASSAULT AGAINST WOMEN.

Myth: It is not really possible to rape a non-consenting adult female.
Reality: It is indeed possible to rape a non-consenting adult female. An erect penis is capable of penetratiing any female orifice.

Myth: Rape is over in a few seconds.
Reality: Rape sometimes lasts over a perios of DAYs. According to the LA statistics, the average battering period of time is OVER 4 HOURS!

Myth: Weapons such as guns, tear gas and knives are the best techniques awoman can have to fend off an attacker.
Reality: Most rapes occur at home and so most women are not carrying any weapon. A women carrying a weapon needs to consider that an attacker may snatch the weapon from her grasp. With tear gas: if the wind is blowing the wrong direction, the victim may be gassed instead. In MOST CASES A WOMAN"S BEST WEAPON IS HER OWN BODY> A SELF DEFENSE CLASS IS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.

Myth: There is nothing a woman can do to safeguard against rape.
Reality: Women can take preventative measures to INCREASE AWARENESS, SENSITIVITY AND SAFETY. A self defense class can assist in trianing to be alert, be able to fend off an attacker and aid another in a crisis.

Dugbug you are correct. I have found nothing to correlate provocative dress and rape or any mention in preventative articles.

Reduce Your Risks

OUTSIDE SECURITY
*stay in well -lighted area as much as possible
*walk with confidence and at a steady, brisk pace. A rapist looks for someone who appears VULNERABLE. Keep your head high and know where you are going.
*walk close to the curb when possible. Avoid doorways, bushes, and alleys where a rapist can hide.
*Make sure car keys or house keys are in your hand well before you reach your door.
*If you suspect you are being followed, cross the street or walk quickly to areas with lights and people. If a car appears to be following you, turn and walk in the opposite direction. Aviod walking to your home if being followed!
*Be careful when people in cars ask you for directions. Always reply from a distance....away from the car.
*If you believe you are in danger, don't be reluctant to scream and run. Carry a whistle or other noise maker.
*Attract help in any way you can , scream, yell, break a window...YOUR CHOICES WILL BE LIMITED IF A WEAPON IS INVOLVED.
*Travel with a friend when possible. This is probably the most effective deterrent to any type of attack.

HOME SECURITY
many assualts happen at home, in garages or apartment laundry rooms.
*Make sure all doors and door frames are solid and sturdy. Good locks such as deadbolts locks with 1inch throws are a must! Chains are easily broken.
*Have locks changed when moving to a new home!
*Install a peep hole in your doorand use it. NEVER open the door without knowing who is on the other side.
* Install good exterior lighting around your home.
"Make sure all windows can be locked securely.
*Sliding glass doors also need secure locking systems.
* Be sure to use door and window locks AT ALL TIMES.
*If you live alone , don't advertise it. Use only your initials and last name on mailboxes and phone book listings.
*It is your landlords responsibility to provide safety precautions and improvements such as exterior lighting and strong locks.
*Always check the ID of repair or sales people before opening the door.
* If strangers ask to use your phone for an emergency, offer to make the call yourself. Don't let them in while making the call.
*If a stranger or repairperson telephones you or comes to your door, do not admit you are alone.
*In apartments, avoid being in the laundry room or garage area alone, especially at night. Have keys ready as you approach your building and door.
*If you come home to an open door, window or forced sighns if entry do NOT go inside. Go to the nearest telephone and call 911.
*Teach children proper safety responses for strangers on the telephone. Not to open the door etc,

VEHICLE SECURITY
be especially cautious while driving your car.
*After entering or leaving your car always lock the doors.
* Check the back seat before entering.
*Keep doors and windows closed and locked while you drive.
* If you think you are being followed, drive to a police station or public place.
*If your car breaks down, open the hood and attach a white cloth to the car antenna. Then wait inside the car with doors locked. If people stop to help ask them to call police or tow truck(if you have no cell). Do NOT get out until help arrives.
*Proper maintenance of your vehicle is important to safety. Avoid driving with worn tires, low fuel or oil.`

There are two issues here. First: A rape is a hate crime. It has nothing to do with what the woman is wearing. Nothing.

Second: For what reason does a woman dress provocatively. To attract men? To show that she is proud of her figure? To simply look good and feel nice about herself? Well, for any of those reason she should carefully pick the time and place. If you are going to hunt deer, you go into the forrest. If you do not want the attention of a certain ilk of person, stay out of his way.

I am a man and proud of it. I cannot rape a women. Maybe I'm different than most men, but I doubt it. I discovered this when I was in the Navy. It just don't get hard unless she wants me. It doesn't matter what she wears or doesn't wear or how she looks. If she don't want me, it doesn't get hard. Most men don't realize this. They think there might be something wrong with them. Those who do realize this don't admit it.

There is a difference between a man and a rapist. Ten percent are rapist and the rest are men.

Decius - Thankyou for that input. It wasn't easy to throw that out there. But you are right. I think I know, but haven't the means by where I can truely study this. I only know about me and what a few other men have told me, and most of us don't talk about it.

The experts say - and in ten years that will change.

A responsible women will look around where she's at and dress apropriately. And today if a man rapes a women, he is guilty and the woman is blameless. Not like it used to be. In this respect, things have changed for the better.