The end of the universe - Page 2

wow well im retarded now.

Our feeble minds connot comprehend such depths but unless there were an unlimited space to grow we would not grow to fill it. We are created in the image of God with the ability to shape the world around us. We are the crowning glory of creation. We have the power to shape it according to our vision: for good or evil.

Ya, think 4you, & I had a little discussion in the 4-d thread http://www.captaincynic.com/thread.php3/thrdid=13596-u-frmid=21 about this very thing. Actually the 2 books 'Alice in Wonder Land' & 'Through the Looking Glass' are both dealing with these perceptions in a very (scientific) concrete manner esp. when you consider how long ago they were writtten. Might check the Astral projection thread as well.

In my more unfettered descents into metaphysical reverie I like to think that the universe (including life) exists only conceptually.

If you insist on a nuts-and-bolts kind of physicality to the universe, its end (or beginning, for that matter) is a mind-blower, not unlike trying to download a 1 terabyte email. It leaves only two possible outcomes:

1. The Optimistic Outcome.

The universe, which is at this apparent time apparently expanding, contains enough as-yet undetected dark matter to provide the gravitas necessary to eventually reverse the outward inertia and ultimately collapse the physical universe into the mother of all black holes. This allows for the possibility that a second (or ten-millionth) Big Bang will result from the mix, and eventually physical life may have a chance to re-emerge in the universe.

2. The Pessimistic Outcome.

The universe continues to expand, enthalpy dissipates and the physical universe ultimately freezes at absolute zero for infinity. Bummer.

You see it really does not matter what shape the physical universe is. I prefer a double-helix chain of interlocking Moebius donuts with the "ends" connected rotating past my perspective like a merry-go-round. But that's just me.

It gets much more interesting to consider the possibilities of a conceptual universe. It need not be my conception, of course, which devolves the line of thought into theology. Not necessarily religion, which as it now exists is to theology what popcorn is to sustenance, but a larger consideration of Man's Purpose.

Curiosity killed the cat, and Man is curious by the nature of his intelligence. We look for Answers, and as the answer to any question invariably leads to other questions, the process seems not only endless but self-defeating. But what can be the end-game, the goal of this research? It must be Complete Knowledge, a.k.a. omnipotence. At which point Man becomes not only immortal but all-powerful, with the ability to... Create! In other words, Man becomes God.

Now, if you could create your own universe, what would you do with it? Jim Carrey's flik Bruce Almighty sort of touched on this theme peripherally. I maintain that it would be horribly boring. Knowing everything would be a total drag. Nothing unexpected would EVER happen. Humor would be impossible. All lines of thought would have already been covered. You would be Charlton Heston in The Omega Man, watching Woodstock over and over and over and over... and the only way out would be suicide (Deicide) -- destruction of the universe.

Unless you (You?) create a unverse in which you do not directly participate, where events could take place randomly and thus give you something to watch. Sentient beings in this universe would have to have free will, would have to be outside your control, or the whole exercise would be pointless and you might as well swallow the barrel. The irony is that these sentient beings would of course eventually seek and achieve Complete Knowledge themselves, completing the double helix Moebius merry-go-round donut chain. But you would have something to do. Would be "alive," On, 1 base 2, That which Is compared to That which Could Not Be.

In a way, this fits so well with nearly every religion's contention that all mankind are the children of God as to be frightening. As father begets son who becomes a father, "we" as God's children ultimately become God. Either that, or wormfood.

One last aside: how many conceptual universes are out there "now"? Is what I call green what you call red?

Water Music

Actually I think there is 1 other optimistic outcome which doesn't require life's crunching.
It is possible that the rate of expansion becomes near zero because of gravity while the universe is still big enough to make the effect of grabity near zero. This means that although the universe will very slowly expand, but at the same time, the rate of expansion would slow until it is infinitesimely slow. In effect the universe would still be expanding forever, but would never get past a certain size.
Although admittedly, it would seem very unlikely that this be the case and the odds of the rate of expansion and the pull of gravity almost cancelling themselves out seems very low.

Edited for bad grammar and horrendous wording.

Stating what is believed to be true by a great many Astronomers, I would have to say that the Universe is finite. I say this because, if the universe was infinite there would be a great white-hazy light in the sky at night. Because we see the stars in the sky from millions and millions of light years away, they would soon fill the spaces in between the stars.
One theory that tried to distrupt this one states that, there are a number of dust clouds that block our view of stars so we cannot tell that they are there. This is deemed false because dust clouds filled with matter that they refer to would absorb that light and then give off that energy. This energy would be reflected as a haze to us on Earth.
This is the theory I believe in, so far. There are a good many points in it that allow me to make my own sense of things.

Wesdawgy - Though I believe in a finite universe, I think it is possible to have infinite universe in space and a finite universe in matter. That way we still have our infinite cube but there is no hazy light between the stars.

Crimson,
Do you mean for example, a Universe that extends infinitely but at some point is physically finite?
That has some very curious implications, it's playing itself out in my head right now.
Something that might support that could be the expanding patern of the Universe. By this I mean the way it is growing. The Universe grows space in between everything. It doesn't grow at it's "end", things become equally further apart as the space around matter expands (Damn this is hard to explain).

"Do you mean for example, a Universe that extends infinitely but at some point is physically finite? "
Not quite but I think that's one of the major outcomes scientists are looking into.

'By this I mean the way it is growing. The Universe grows space in between everything. It doesn't grow at it's "end", things become equally further apart as the space around matter expands (Damn this is hard to explain)."
Errr... I think this means that you effectively get a smaller amount of matter per cubic meter? Yep, that what supports it.

Though what I meant (not that I nescessarily believe it) is that although you only have say 1 billion galaxies, but the space around those galaxies is infinite. IE, you could travel in one direction in space and not do a loop and come back to your starting point.

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Errr... I think this means that you effectively get a smaller amount of matter per cubic meter? Yep, that what supports it.

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I think the theory I am referring to is actually opposite. You get a larger amount of space in between the matter, i.e. planets, stars etcetera. For example, if you and I were playing baseball and you were the pitcher, I was the batter. We would stay in exactly the same place, while the infield grew larger, and we were soon further away form eachother.

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Though what I meant (not that I nescessarily believe it) is that although you only have say 1 billion galaxies, but the space around those galaxies is infinite. IE, you could travel in one direction in space and not do a loop and come back to your starting point.

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How can you travel straight, in one direction and end up at you starting point when space is infinite? It would seem that you would just keep traveling until...well forever if space was infinite. I'm a little confused.

I think we have a failure to communicate if I ever saw one

"think the theory I am referring to is actually opposite. You get a larger amount of space in between the matter, i.e. planets, stars etcetera. For example, if you and I were playing baseball and you were the pitcher, I was the batter. We would stay in exactly the same place, while the infield grew larger, and we were soon further away form eachother."
And that would also translate as less matter per cubic meter, we have more space, but the amount of matter stays the same. Err right?

" It would seem that you would just keep traveling until...well forever if space was infinite."
That's exactly what I said, I think my wording was perhaps a little misleading?

That's funny Crimson I had a feeling there was some confusion as to whether we agreed or not, lol.
Yes, matter would stay consistent in that respect, although growth continues in matter also (completely different subject). Theoretically the matter would stay the same and the nothingness surrounding it would expand. I get where you are going now, harder to explain on a message board. What I really need is a Blackboard, lol.

"Yes, matter would stay consistent in that respect, although growth continues in matter also (completely different subject). Theoretically the matter would stay the same and the nothingness surrounding it would expand."
A right, well what I meant was if you took all the space in which all the matter in the universe was contained, you'd find that there is getting less and less matter per cubic meter.
However if we measured it on earth (say a cubic meter of water) then that would stay the same no matter how long you wait.
Yeah, I think that's it

Density= Mass per unit volume
gaseous phase has no definite volume nor shape but fills the shape & volume of it's container
Didn't need that black board!
PS. That being said, we have no more reason to ponder what's outside of the higher dimensional spherical universe than we do what's outside of our normal 3d cubic universe. Does it work for either expanding or contracting as well as the alternating (cyclic) forms. LoL

There can be no Measurement without Existence. Time and Space (Volume) are measurements of existents / continued or repeated manifestation. The questions ... 'Does time really exist? or... Will the Universe come to an end? We must first answer the question that proves we have obtained Existence. Which we have not...
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