Catholics vs Christians - Page 3

justjgr, other?

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The Bible says not to worship other idols(Gods). I don't think Mary is close to being a deity.

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The Old Testament states that you should worship GOD alone.
As it was common practice to have household idols,ignorance of the people made the symbol (form) something that came to be worshiped, the reason some Christians don't have Jesus hanging on the cross. The symbol of the cross, fish, etc were used to identify (secretly) Christians to one another because of persecution.

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I don't think Mary is close to being a deity.

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As Mary was the mother of Jesus, who being the foundation of the Church, it was implied that Mary was the Mother of the Church. Which the statement of Jesus to John and His mother Mary as He hung on the cross was used to validate this perception.
On the other hand, Jewish Traditions gave the right of double portion to the eldest son with the responsibility for the mother & daughters. As such Jesus words on the cross can be seen as fulfilment of all righteousness by Jesus even upon the cross.

cturtle said:

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As Mary was the mother of Jesus, who being the foundation of the Church, it was implied that Mary was the Mother of the Church.

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Consider this though... The Bible doesn't even imply slightly that Mary is the mother of the church. These statements were only implied later by those in a high church position who interpreted their Bibles wrong, and read their ideas straight into the text. Never does the Bible say anything about rosaries or prayer and veneration to Mary. If anything, the Bible clearly contradicts it. Jesus (being the confessed Son of God), when asked by a disciple to teach him how to pray said: "Pray like this: Our Father..." (my paraphrase). Never was there implied command to pray or venerate, Jesus mother. Also, if we would take the Bible as the history of the beginnings of the church, we will see that none of the letters or epistles of the apostles say anything about praying or venerating Mary. The focus is always on Christ and his saving power, and the importance of people believing this.

When it comes to Jesus words on the cross, I'm not sure what you're saying. But what do you think about my claims above?

What do I thnk? this I know all churches have come their own conclusions about the meaning of the Word. So in this they have made induced error, if for no other reason than man is not perfect. Although many Christian denominitions have not accepted this of Catholics, they by the same token see Jesus as GOD and worship him as such ALTHOUGH Jesus himself never put himself equal to GOD the Father. Nor did He (Jesus) teach anyone to do so as you pointed out when He was asked to teach them to pray?
What do you think? Did Christ come that we should idolize Him or idealize Him in our lives?

At times I have studied with various Christians Churches (denominations) Most all say we have the Truth, we are the true church yet they have differences in their believes and worship? Jesus rebuked the Pharasee for adhering to the letter of the Law, tithing and giving the full measure of spice and oils, making of sacrifices. But not the spirit of it, they didn't give the love of the people (children) as Jesus showed for the people. If there is any true church it isn't a matter of being numbered among some particular church but a matter of the individuals commitment.
While proper instruction & adherence to form are important aspect of the life of the church. Each individual is responsible for seeking the truth.Some churches say that they have the true baptism. Man may baptize with water but it is in accordance of GOD's Will that the baptism of the Spirit comes.
Even Jesus power to work miracules was dependent upon the willingness and the faith of those who recieve. It is not a one-sided relationship. In the words of Paul the greatest of all the gifts is the gift of Love.

I think it is wrong to pray to mother marry. But I don't see a need to correct those who do. As they believe as others do, Mary intercedes for them just as Jesus does. I don't think Mary does nor Jesus. I understand that the spirit translates our feeble words and thoughts directed to the One God. So we don't need to pray to Mary or Jesus. But that's how I see it and understand it. I understand that Mother Theresa prayed to mother marry, believing that mother marry intercedes for us. Mother Theresa is a much greater person than I and needs no correction from me. I think Idol worship is a little different. If you prayed to Mary or Jesus because you believed they were god, that would be idol worship. But to pray to Mary or Jesus because you believe they intercede for you. I would not classify that idol worship.

How can one say they are spiritual but not religious or how can one say they are religious and not spiritual? How did religion become a bad word and spiritual become a good word. To be spiritual is to be religious and to be religious is to be spiritual. They are the same thing but are only perceived differently. To be religious one does not have to follow any certain religion and being spiritual does not mean you believe in all religions. Don't know where this idea came from. I am a religious spiritual person. I am not more spiritual then religious or vice versa.

Nice OkCity, but to answer your question. It was written that in the disbelieve would come onto the Church. Christians would become seduced by spiritual means a false God would arise promoting worship of this foase God by signs and miracles which compared to those of the original Church. Thus spirit became to be feared if one showed spiritual abilities (Gifts of the Spirit) one would be looked upon with a cloud of fear. Having anything to do with them meant being tempted and deceived into their falsehood.

Interesting theory from a religious conservative viewpoint. I think those who call themselves spiritual and throw off religion equate religion meaning being a part of a church. Where as I see being spiritual is an aspect of religion. One is not without the other.

But that part about the false God. I heard it would be a false Christ returned. Concerning this false Christ returned prophecy; I possibly equate this with alien visits. I'll tell you why. I read this short story about a psychiatrist who committed suicide after counseling a couple who was suffering from depression. It seems he put the couple under hypnosis and discovered they had been unknowingly abducted by aliens. What he had learned from this was so horrible that he could not live with himself he said in his suicide note. But nobody knows what he had learnt. I read this short article in a reputable magazine (which means nothing), but if it's true, it makes one wonder.

But I guess this is about Catholics and Protestants.

When protestants here that the Catholic Church was the first church, i would guess the might not like it. But what they have to understand is that at one time every Christian was part of the Catholic Church. They reffered to it as The Church( as Catholics still do today) for there was no need to distinguish. Catholic comes from the Greek word catholicos meaning universal. We still consider protestants part of the Christian body. Protestants most also accepts us as their fellow Christians. And as for people that still think the Catholic Church is an evil dictatorship, all i have to say is TIMES HAVE CHANGED. And as for the person that doesn't think Catholicism is spiritual, they obniously haven't been to many Catholic masses. In our tradition, there are periods of deep fasting and praying to have a deeper relationship with God. Communion symbolizes unity with Christ. And the priest job in confession is to help guide us in redemption

http://www.captaincynic.com/thread.php3/thrdid=19358-u-frmid=12-u-page=2
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Yes times have changed but have the people? As Rome persecuted the Catholic Church so did the Church persecuted science. So intent was this persecution an evil sense is still attached to it.

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Dude-Yes, God is imcomperhensible.'it seems as if the more we learn in science, the more it makes religion wrong' Yes, but the thing is that Religion was intended for people thousands of years ago. If religion had informed them of the things that we are just starting to disocver, they would have freaked out! So our discovering things that religion does not teach does not make it valid. We are just told the basics in religion, the rest is up to us.

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As it is written you reap that which you sew? Or is it as the twig is bent so does the tree grow.
We each choose to believe and to the extent which we adhere to that belief?

My answer:

http://www.captaincynic.com/thread.php3/thrdid=15679-u-frmid=17

The Catholic church is the oldest organized Christian church, but it was not always. What happened to the christians before the Catholic Church?

Good Point, I used link to make comment for you.

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"Catholics vs Christians

Do catholics and christians get along? What I mean is, traditionally, are they co-existing religions or enemy religions?"

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Three pages about this?

What are you people?

Catholicism is i subsection of Christianity and so cannot be against it. It is a complete non-sequitur.
Can a Londoner disagree with the English? Hell no!

The views of the English, like the views of Christianity (both broad terms) are varied.
Christianity incorporates Methodists, Baptists, Anglicans, Russian Orthodoxists. It's all varied, they all hold the same truth. The Jesus lives. They all disagree on smaller issues.

C'est simple.

Catholicism cannot be against "Christianity" as Catholicism IS a Christianity.

Hence all the pages preceeding this are null, void and ill though out.

Regards,

D'esterre

D'Este . . . to deny division which is apparent to others would be to deny the truth of what is and what should be?
The Church of Rome wasn't the first church! The Church of Jurusalem, as well as other cities as Christianity spread predate it. Division of the (Holy Roman Church) empire led to the Roman Catholic and the Greek Orthodox about the issue of the Pope's office. (Greek Orthodox wanted a ruling body of Elders vs a Pope.)
Protestant belief was promoted as a byproduct of the King's (Church of England) confrontation with Vatican authority.
An Ugly Truth as many view spreading the Gospel as seeking the converts of other religious (Christian Churches) groups.

Tradition of the church is an important factor.
If you read St John, he tells many times, that he will tell them 'in person' ..towads the end of the text.
He therefore leaves open the oral teachings. And it is also said that we are to keep both the written laws and the oral laws.
The Catholic Church is the only church that has maintained the oral programs. But also, they have never changed the oral teachings.
However, the oral teachings do not leave the written laws.

Idols are praised over God. Statutes, though reminders, are not prayed over, nor held in high sancitity above God.
Take the pagans, for instance, whom prayed to Venus, Apollo, etc.
That is an idol worship.

The fact that Jesus said to His apostles "Whatever you have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Whatever you hold bound on earth shall be bound in heaven"
This is how He told them to forgive, or not to forgive. It has been laid before them for man. In other words, confessions.

Mother Mary was the Mother of Jesus.
I ask you, has Jesus ever committed a sin? Had He ever done anything against His Father in heaven, who gave us Ten Commandments?

No, Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. The 4th Commandment tells us to "Honor our Father and Mother". Jesus Honored His mother...and as we are to be followers of Jesus, we are too then, to honor His mother.
IF you say He did NOT honor her, you say he sinned against His Father.

The prayer prayed WITH Mary addresses her as she was addressed in scripture.
'Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, Blessed are thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. (ALL truth, and all in scripture)
Then we continue, to ask a favor of the Lord's mother, with whom He finds favor.
"Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of deaths. amen"
They is no idol worship in that pray. But asking favors of those closest to Christ. NONE on earth will ever have the position of the sacred closeness than She who Bore Him life to earth.

She was choosen by God to be the prized and holy daughter to raise and bear His only Begotten son.
She was the SPOUSE of the Holy Spirit, and she was the Mother of Jesus.
She is completely loved by God. The Triune God.

She has a deep relationship with God, and it is better to NOT understand it, than to deny it.
http://loveandwar.proboards23.com/index.cgi

I have been a member of the Catholic Church and on Idol worship I have to defend it. Some of the Catholic church does parctice this, in error. I believe in the mercy of God as I'm sure you do Dreamer. God judges us according to our heart. If in our heart we feel guilty for doing a thing, it is because we know it is a wrong. But if a person does a wrong and does not know it is wrong, they do not feel guilty and are not judged by it.

Mother Theresa practiced this, and I don't think God even blinked. A portion of Catholic church has realized its error and has organized a program called the renew program. This program is so protestant, you wouldn't even know it was Catholic. It has been many years since I've been envolved in it. So I don't know how strong it ever became, but I do know changes came from it.