Obama/Bush are World's Biggest Terrorists!

Capitalism sucks! Who are the Real Terrorists?!
By Wolf Larsen
Under the Bush and Obama administrations the people of Iraq and Afghanistan have suffered horrible terrorism from the American war machine. What the American war machine has done to the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan is no different than the terrorism that the American government unleashed against the people of Vietnam. In effect, George Bush and Barack Obama are war criminal terrorists who are responsible for the deaths of endless civilians.
The politicians in Congress of both political parties who voted for these wars are also responsible for the widespread terrorism that the American war machine has perpetrated against the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan.

And what about the terrorism that both the Republican and Democratic regimes in Washington have perpetrated against the American people? Currently 2 million Americans sleep behind prison bars every night. One out of every four people in jail in the world is in jail in the United States of America. Most of those people are in jail because of drugs. The war against drugs is a war of terror against the American people. Endless minority youth have been shot down in cold blood by the police in this war on drugs. And think of the terror of a young man who's just been thrown in jail because of drugs. He is terrorized that he's going to be raped as he lays down in his bunk to go to sleep at night.

Demonstrators exercising their First Amendment rights to protest are being terrorized by violent police who are attacking demonstrators with billy clubs, tear gas, and pepper spray. These police officers seem to have a violent disrespect for veterans, as these cops have repeatedly attacked veterans at these demonstrations. Veterans should be treated with respect! And the same police that are attacking demonstrators are also terrorizing workers on the picket line and minority youth in the ghettos. The police are terrorists. The police are the hired thugs of the rich and powerful.

Think of the terror of an American family as they're being evicted from their home today. The big banks are terrorizing the American people with their endless evictions and foreclosures on American homes.

Across the nation unions are being smashed, wages are being slashed, and millions are unemployed. The American government and the bosses are terrorizing American workers. The American government and the ruling class are engaged in a class war against the American worker.

Since its very inception the American government has used terrorism against its own people. Strikes have been met with brutal acts of terrorism directed against the workers by the violent police. Black people have experienced four centuries of brutal racist terrorism carried out by the violent police and the KKK. And the terrorism that the American government directed against the native peoples was even more brutal!

So when the capitalist news media and the politicians of both political parties talk about terrorism it's just a bunch of hypocritical hot air. The capitalist news media and the politicians of both political parties are hypocritically using the issue of terrorism in order to justify all their endless wars. The politicians of both political parties are also hypocritically using the issue of terrorism to stomp upon basic civil liberties. If anybody should be put on trial as a terrorist it is Barack Obama and George Bush!

Make no bones about it. The biggest terrorist in the world resides at the White House. Barack Obama is not a man of peace. Obama is pulling American troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq because the American war machine has been getting its butt kicked in both those countries just like in Vietnam.

The American government is basically a terrorist organization. In fact, the American government is the deadliest terrorist organization in the world. The American government uses its war machine to terrorize people across the world - from Iraq to Afghanistan to Vietnam. The American government also uses its violent police force to terrorize American workers on the picket line, immigrants, minorities in the ghettos, and people exercising their First Amendment right to protest.

Under capitalism the ruling class uses the government to terrorize workers, minorities, immigrants, and foreign peoples into submission. The working-class needs to smash capitalism with a workers revolution. Right now we live in a bourgeois democracy - a democracy run by the rich and the big corporations. What we need is a workers democracy! We need to replace this bourgeois democracy with a workers democracy. The first step towards building a workers democracy is to build a workers party - a party that will fight for the working people!

Congress didn't vote for the Iraq war.

Well where to start.......I guess with congress congress passed the resolution to go to war with Iraq by about 90% Hilary Clinton was among them along with literally every other major player in both the democrats and the republicans. You must be thinking of Lybia.

Okay now we should all agree that Iraq is indeed becoming a real democracy where the people have a say in there own lives for the very first time.

25,700 Americans died in the revolutionary war. Do you think we should have never sacrificed ourselves for over 2 centuries of freedom? By the way that's about the same amount of Iraqi's that died and we weren't bombing ourselves in the process.

Obama went to war with Lybia because the U.N. asked him to. He didn't even tell congress he was doing it let alone ask them for a vote.

Now where I agree with you Obama is following Bush pretty much exactly as the plan was laid out.

Now for "terrorism" In Iraq there were very few civilian casualties from American attacks. Over 90% of those deaths were from
SUICIDE BOMBERS KILLING THEIR OWN NEIGHBORS.

Many many bombers set there bombs off in civilian areas where there weren't even any Americans in the area.

What does this lead you to believe? They are killing there own people because they want to make a political statement and instill fear in their own population.

Now I we should all know why we went to war with Iraq. The president and ALL of congress was told that beyond a shadow of a doubt he had weapons of mass destruction. That's right the president was lied to. His own cabinet and advisers told him that they KNEW. If you were president and a crazy leader that has already proved to the world they WILL use biological weapons <he used chemicals on his own people before just ask them how great things were before we got there>.

The Iraq war was not necessary<only after the lies have been discovered> but who else would rebuild an entire country from the ground up after a war? Please tell me one other nation that would continue to put their own people at risk to finish the job and make sure a country they went to war with will be able to maintain there own sovereignty?

Now as for Afghanistan. I 100% completely agree with going to war there. Why you may ask? THEY WERE THE ONES HARBORING AL QAEDA not Iraq. They were knowingly and willingly harboring the people that attacked America. If they would have just turned them over in the first place we could have been in and out and justice would have been served and we all could have gone on with our lives.

Iraq had NOTHING to do with 911. NOTHING. However at the same time Afghanistan and Pakistan did. They were harboring the people that attacked us. They made a conscious decision to keep our enemies safe. That clearly makes them enemies to the U.S. . If a country harbors and condones acts of violence against another country then they are clearly going to have something to do with some kind of attack again somewhere down the line. It has to be put to an end. They could have saved so much bloodshed on both sides by just turning them over instead of actively protecting the terrorists. That my friend is an act of war. An act of war perpetrated by Afghanistan first. You cannot call America "terrorists" that isn't accurate. Oppressionists would be the ONLY word you can use and many would find that to be debatable but at least its a logical word choice for the American decisions.

As for the "Blacks" Slavery ended in the Lincoln years. They havn't been oppressed by anyone in at leat 3 decades in any way. Is it our fault that in their culture it's considered cool to commit crimes and have sex with as many people as possible? It's not the countries fault that a large percentage of them equate social standings by the amount of "street cred" they have<based on illegal acts including acts of violence theft and intimidation>.

All that being said why is it when there are so many productive intelligent successful blacks out there you still say they are being oppressed? I can assure you there are no WHITE ONLY SCHOLARSHIPS in my country. There are many many BLACK ONLY programs out there. How is that equal? What kind of messege does that send to the intelligent young black kids sitting in class? "Your race cant compete on there own so here we made a special program just for blacks to level the playing field". They don't need any help. Do you know why? BECAUSE THEY ARE FREAKIN' EQUAL! When someone is equal you treat them the same. I know they are equal why don't you?

How can you holistically agree that blacks are being held back in America?

Have you ever lived or worked here?

Do you have any first hand experience of this?

Would it be racist or oppressive if there was a WHITE ONLY college fund?

Well there is a Black only college fund.

I don't think you are capable or qualitfied to make such a statement.

Well if you read his post then you'd know that he said blacks are still being oppressed today in America.

That simply isn't true. If your counter arguement is that there are rednecks out there treating blacks badly then you could say the same about blacks with a chip on their shoulder treating whites badly because they are white. Rich white men treat poor whites just as bad as they treat poor blacks.

The whole point of what I said was that you guys are basing your opinions on information you've obtained from other peoples biased opinions.

Unlike you guys I have first hand experience living and working in America. Blacks are not being oppressed anymore than anyone else is. You are always going to have patches of discrimination based on anything at all that makes someone different. That doesn't mean that as a whole the country has a policy of discrimination.

You guys know that in America all business people care about is how much money their workers can make them, regardless of color.

It also seems like your dodging my response about you being unable to say for sure if blacks are being oppressed. You're commenting on what you feel is my issue with affirmative action when what I have an issue with in reality is people ass uming things they have no qualification to comment on.

The whole reason people think blacks are being oppressed today is because people keep "holistically" agreeing with these notions because of their own hatred for my country. They only agree because it goes along with their own agenda. Not because they actually see these things going on today.

As for slavery when it was going on in America it was the norm for the majority of the entire world. In fact Africans where running the slave trade at the time when American's purchased the black slaves in the first place. Their own people made it possible.

You're missing the point. He is saying things that are not true. He's only saying it because it paints a negative picture.

You think "minorities" are under attack here. That simply isn't true.

You don't live or work here. You cannot answer for the American Minorities. Please tell me your countries demographic. Do you spend much time with American Blacks?

By the way it's your socialist crowd that voted in Obama. At the time you KNEW he was the savior of America and the west. Now you KNOW he's a terrorist?

You don't KNOW anything. You have a handful of biased opinions designed to make America look bad. You only have these opinions because they further your cause. You don't base them on facts or first hand experience. If it makes America look a similar way to how you personally view it then you are in complete and total agreement with them.

That was my point.
Stop deflecting.

Hello Decius,

You are certainly free to do as you wish but I think you're wasting your time arguing with Mutnuaq. In another post Mutnuaq engaged in personal attacks on me rather than arguing with what I said.

It is perplexing that you agree with everything I said but then urge us to vote for Ron Paul. Ron Paul is as procapitalist as they come. You can vote for whoever you want - even a monkey for all I care - but the problem is capitalism. Capitalism breeds endless war. You can change the face of the politician but you can't change the nature of capitalism. Capitalism has brought us endless war. The only way to have peace is to have socialism, the socialism of Lenin and Trotsky. Lenin and Trotsky got Russia out of World War I.

Hound

The war on terror was invented by the Feds. The purpose is to demand more money and power from people. So when the intelligence and Pentagon are there, the terror will be there too. If there is none, they create one.

Human have hound in their house to protect their family against the wolf. As the hound getting more power, they don't want to be guards any more. They want to be master. So the hound trained some wolf they captured. Let these agent wolf to attack and kill human. Human is frightened. They give hound whatever they demanded -money, power ..... Now hound become master. When they need something, they let the agent wolf have an attack on human, then said, this is a long war, to protect your lives, I need warrantless surveillance, more budget fund, torture prison.... . The hound repeated its demand, "This enemy has struck us, and they will strike again, and we'll give our folks the tools necessary to protect the country," if you don't then the hound "can not protect ourselves".

That's why we saw after 10 years, occasionally a wolf or two were captured. But hundreds of thousands of innocent people died. There is an endless war to control people. A constant blackmail for more power.

[quote] " What the American war machine has done to the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan is no different than the terrorism that the American government unleashed against the people of Vietnam"

As an ex British soldier i strongly disagree with your claims.
you obviously haven't heard of the hearts and minds operation in Afghanistan. quite the opposite of what happened in vietnam. what about all the schools and hospitals we have built and the people of Afghanistan who feel liberated.
I'm far from siding with the war on terror. (A Lot of good has come from a lot of bad)

when will humans realise war is not the answer to peace...

with the research Ive conducted on the vietnam war and my own experiences in Afghanistan i strongly disagree with the supposed similarities.

does experience (even if it only includes half the argument) not count for anything.

please do illustrate the similarities.

besides can any info gathered from either war be a guaranteed fact due to mass properganda?

i apologise on a second read of your post i understood your point.

So they are terrorists by your logic.

How about all the people blowing up their neigbors in Iraq and Afghanistan?


Do you not know what TERRORism is? It's manipulating people through vicious acts evoking terror in it's targets.

You choose terrorist because America is supposedly fighting terror. Not because it's an adequate description.

Actually the way I used terrorism is the correct term.

ter·ror·ism
&#8194; &#8194;[ter-uh-riz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

So you are wrong on all accounts. Because the way I used it was accurate and GLOBALLY accepted.And because it has no officially agreed upon definition. You are calling America something that you cannot yourself define therefore calling it something you don't even understand. You may as well just make up a word comprised of random sounds instead.

You are calling America something that doesn't exist.

by your own brilliant logic you defeated yourself.

Congrats.

The real terrorist
The war on terror is created by the Inside group. It is a terror war on people. Al Qaida is a puppet tool of US intelligence. A lot of people have recognized 911 was a false flag "terror attack". That's why you saw 911 attack targetted at civilians, even the victims in Pentagon were mostly civilian staffs and contractors. The Bali bombing targetted civilians' night club. Madrid bombing targetted at civilians, so did London bombing. And most evident case are the bombing case in Iraq. Al Qaida used to bomb the market, causing hundreds deaths of innocent people. All the bombers died in attack, no one survived. We were told by government they were Al Qaida. Is that too convenient to attribute all the crimes to someone unknown? This government can do whatever they want. For what reason Al Qaida focus at innocent people? There is only one reason: to instigate the indignation so the ruling class can get whatever they want.

I am very tired and having trouble understanding what Katsung is saying. I will try reading it again when I am more awake.

Regarding one of Mutnuaq's comments I am also a white man and I fail to see how Decius is being racist. It seems to me that once again Mutnuaq is engaging in race baiting. This thread is not about race. This thread is a debate on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. I would appreciate it if Mutnuaq would stop posting on my threads, as his comments are irrelevant to the debate at hand.

I am pleased that the debate between Decius and Theory has so far been relatively civil. Thank you both of you.

I agree with some things that Decius says but I disagree with others. I do think that Theory's point of view on war as a soldier or veteran is very relevant. While I disagree with some of what Theory is saying I respect soldiers and veterans. George Bush and Barack Obama are the ones that gave the order to engage in imperialist wars, they are the Commander-in-Chiefs, and therefore they are war criminals. The politicians in Congress who voted for the wars are also war criminals.

The common soldiers are in a different category altogether. Many of them were lied to, they were fed pro-war propaganda by the US government and the news media. Remember, in the beginning of these two wars much of the capitalist news media was faithfully beating the war drums to whip up the American public into a war frenzy. Other soldiers enlisted because they needed money for college, or they were trying to escape a town or decaying industrial city with few jobs.

Let us in particular remember the fate of injured veterans, many of whom wait in vain to receive the benefits from the government that they are entitled to. Many injured veterans are having trouble finding work, as many employers discriminate against the disabled. Other veterans have such serious injuries that they cannot work, and yet they have been abandoned by our government. Meanwhile, the war profiteers are making out like bandits.

We must also remember the suffering of the peoples of Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan who have suffered so horribly from the crimes of American imperialism. If there is a socialist government in the United States of America one day I believe that we should take away all the money from the war profiteers and give it to all those civilians who were injured in the wars of Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan as well as to the families of those civilians that died.

Once again I want to thank you all for keeping the debate polite.