Partners In Life - Page 2

You make a lot of good points again. I intend on replying, but it might not be for a day or two.

Actually, something else you have said in one of your previous posts sticks out to me more than anything else.

Where you have said:

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Yes. It is my freedom and my ability to understand that make me so happy. To lose myself is to lose those two things.

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And in ChrisD's thread you stated:

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Some times I feel like I've missed out on a part of life because I found my partner early.

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Do you feel that you are less free within your relationship, in comparrison to the freedom you would have as a single person?

Do you desire certain things that seem to be or are, unnacceptable within your relationship? If so, what are these desires?

At times, I do feel that being in a relationship does make me less free. I feel like with someone I have much more responsibility. Because I am so in love, my emotions often times pull me in a direction to act a particular way, because I have someone else to think about. For instance, if I was alone, I would probably go to a lot of parties to find someone. I don't do those things based on the fact that I don't need one, therefor I miss out on that part of life.

But, if I was out going to parties looking for someone, that would mean that I wasn't spending time with the person I love. I see this thing in life as a trade. Would the experience of picking up a chick at a party be fun? Hell yeah. But so is just partying with the girl I already have. Plus, I love her lol.

So, in some senses, I am driven by it, therefor it restricts me. But it doesn't maek me un happy. Because without it... I don't know. It would just suck.

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Do you desire certain things that seem to be or are, unnacceptable within your relationship? If so, what are these desires?

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No. In fact, we try to be as open as we can with the other person. For instance, we have only ever "been" with each other. If one of us down the road got the desire to experience sex with some one else, neither of us would be surprised. Is it morally right to hold your partner to the expectation to only ever having sex with yourself? Does that not limit their freedom?

Do you see the point of these questions? We try to allow each other to be as much our selves, and as freely as we can do those things, even out the cost of possibly being hurt due to insecurities we probably shouldn't have any way.

If she wants to go ski diving, and I weigh too much to do it, does that mean she shouldn't go?

I'm not sure if that answers your question.

What were you hoping to find out? Why did those things stick out to you?

The words "missed out" convey a sense of regret for things like opportunities lost. They are not words one would or should use if they did not feel regretful about not having been able to do something.

Picking up chicks at parties sounds like something you would want to do, but something you don't permit yourself to do because you are in a relationship.

I'm not saying it's bad that you're not doing what you want to do because you have someone else to think about as well. But I think you need to be aware of how not being able to engage in all of your desires is most likely what is affecting your sense of identity within the relationship.

When you supress a part of yourself, even though you are also doing it for someone elses benefit, you are still repressing yourself and that is still a negative outcome for your psyche.

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No. In fact, we try to be as open as we can with the other person. For instance, we have only ever "been" with each other. If one of us down the road got the desire to experience sex with some one else, neither of us would be surprised. Is it morally right to hold your partner to the expectation to only ever having sex with yourself? Does that not limit their freedom?

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I agree. I believe that partners should not limit one anothers freedom in expressing and engaging in desires that they feel the need to engage in. Whether that desire is sex or the ability to love someone else, it should make no difference. Of course both people need to be comfortable, or work towards becoming comfortable, with allowing their partner absolute freedom.

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Do you see the point of these questions? We try to allow each other to be as much our selves, and as freely as we can do those things, even out the cost of possibly being hurt due to insecurities we probably shouldn't have any way.

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I agree.

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What were you hoping to find out?Why did those things stick out to you?

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You are attatching the word "hoping" like an insinuation that I am looking to exploit whatever information I glean from your words.

Multiple times you have said I am being deceptive and negative, both in PMs and in this thread, and though I have asked you to provide it, you have never given me any proof of my negativity/deceptiveness.

I am enjoying this conversation.

Firstly I would really like to clear up a misunderstanding. That was not my tone saying "hoping." You assumed negatively of me instead of assuming that I was, and still am, interested in why you are interested, and for some reason you don't like it when I ask. It is this result, due to your wrong assumption that leads me to believe that you have sore feelings. This alone. If you are willing to not to assume negatively of me, I am willing to assume positively of you. And I'd say that agreeing to that alone would probably fix any problems you and I have.

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When you supress a part of yourself, even though you are also doing it for someone elses benefit, you are still repressing yourself and that is still a negative outcome for your psyche.

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If it is with in someones nature to be dis-honest, should they supress that for their partner?

Where does the line between change and supression get drawn?

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But I think you need to be aware of how not being able to engage in all of your desires is most likely what is affecting your sense of identity within the relationship.

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Most definitely a tricky moral concept. A constant struggle of revision for me. Do you find it easy to tell what is and is not good for your relationship? A rule of thumb I use is if it feels more honest it can't be bad.

But what I am talking about in this thread is something different than this. I am talking about a distinct unique perspective, or identity, that is created in our minds as one, while remaining independent in each person. Its kinda like being psychic. Like, we say things in our heads, and randomly the other person can hear. I have dreams about her feeling a certain way and when I wake up I learn she was going through something at that time that fits with my dream. Her manager will make her go on break an hour early and I will show up with out her telling me saying, I just felt like I should have come down here.

What I am trying to figure out is if that connection that we have with each other is getting stronger because of our growth in our relationship. Doing things like, being ok with them having sex with someone else. Just being as accepting as possible, while being as honest and natural as possible, with out limiting each other in anyway. There seems, to me, to be a great sense of spirituality in all this. It fills like I'm supposed to figure this out. Like, this is a great power, attainable by all people, if they just train for it.

Just trying to throw out as many ideas as I can to help paint the picture.

Do you share any of the same phenomenon in your life?

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I am enjoying this conversation.

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Are you really? You don't seem to be engaging with half of the things I am saying.

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You assumed negatively of me instead of assuming that I was, and still am, interested in why you are interested, and for some reason you don't like it when I ask.

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I'll answer this with something I have already stated, which you have chosen to ignore.

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Multiple times you have said I am being deceptive and negative, both in PMs and in this thread, and though I have asked you to provide it, you have never given me any proof of my negativity/deceptiveness.

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Furthermore, that you are interested in why I am interested, after having expressed these doubts about my intentions and motivations, it does not feel unreasonable for me to feel like your comment was a suspicious one.

Since you accuse me of deception and negativity, what am I to think when you ask a question that seems pretty redundant?

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I am willing to assume positively of you. And I'd say that agreeing to that alone would probably fix any problems you and I have.

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You haven't assumed positively of my intentions at all, as evidenced by your accusations, nor would I expect you to, if in the past you have felt that I had been negative toward you.

I do not assume positive things of anyone, because what really matters is the truth and genuine progression. I'm not here to defend loyalty over truth.

If you are really intrerested in fixing problems between us, you would have addressed me when I requested evidence of your accusations about my negativity, and engaged with me over problems I have brought up in the past - like that whole analysis thread I made addressing problems I had both with yourself and Magen.

I think it is dispicable that you come back to this forum with the expectation that we should all ignore the past and become friends without addressing all of the negativity that has been uncovered.

It seems to be a good summation of how you choose to deal with all of your unsavoury/uncomfortable problems.

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If it is with in someones nature to be dis-honest, should they supress that for their partner?

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Man, this is like me asking you - If it is in someones nature to torture and kill, should they suppress that for their partner?

Like that example, I think dishonesty is inherently negative, regardless of whether or not you are in a relationship. It is counter to progression, and isn't in any way positive or healthy.

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What I am trying to figure out is if that connection that we have with each other is getting stronger because of our growth in our relationship.

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This seems to be a complete change in direction of what you were expressing at first, which is what I have been attempting to discuss with you.

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The problem I am coming across in this little idea of mine is that how can we truly remain ourselves while involving so much of ourselves in someone else?

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Look at the basis of your choice to your partner and you will seek your answer. (Why did you choose her and still be with her?)

Kratos' offering of the Tao quote "Alone, yet not alone" , is the best reply to the struggle for balance in a relation. All social animals struggle with this balance between self interest and group interest. Among those, long term partner relationships are most important when it takes two parents to care for offspring until the young can care for themselves. Beyond this marriage gives society order, and personally I favor family order to military order.

The US began with family order, but since imitating Germany and the communist, it now is ordered by military order. We once taught that strong families are essential to a strong democracy, and I believe this is true. Effectively, the US was the Athens of the modern world and Germany was the Sparta, but since the US has imitated Germany, it is now the ruling Sparta, and this is not the democracy we started with, but the enemy of it.

So now why might we care about having long term relationships? Why not remain single and have multiple short term relationships? Might there be good reasons to have traditional values of men supporting their families and women staying home to care for them? What happens to social order when we destroy the traditional values? How do social values effect our sense of self worth? How might family order or lack of it, effect individual power and liberty?

Or perhaps we should just stay with the Tao "Alone, yet not alone" . It goes with the concept of loosing our identity when die and returning to the Tao.

Also looking at Swordpriest answer, remember it is sexual attraction that bring us together, and this phase of the relationship is short lived. To get the excitement we have at the beginning of a relationship, it is necessary to have multiple relationships. Why would anyone want to endure a relationship when the excite wears off, and either one or both, become less interested in pleasing the other?

Well what about love? Experiencing this whole life, with out restrictions, and sharring it with some one is a reward in itself. Or is that what you meant by excitement?

There is an African tribe that says feelings change and we should not base our decisions on our feelings. But mostly, I am thinking of ancient Roman's focus on duty to family and country that we once made part of our own culture, and thoughts on being an adult, rather than a child. And I am thinking of Confucius of China who argued the importance of strong families. Now this has been patriarchy, and I believe it is the Greek Aristotle who seems to associate owning a wife with owning an ox and a slave. Heaven knows there can be strong objections to traditional values, and I am surprised I didn't slammed for speaking in favor of them.

I am afraid of saying what I think, because in other forums I have been slammed so badly, but especially now with all the talk of our whole nation going bankrupt I am wondering how smart women's liberation is. Please, I know the arguments, I have lived the worst side of traditional values, and know the problems well. But as a citizen, I am thinking this country had it made when one pay check was enough to support a family, and it got a lot from women free or very cheaply.

A good homemaker, is a woman who enjoys the domestic artists, and she can make a home beautiful, and make everyone in family circle and social circle feel good. This is taking care of many things from cooking and cleaning to encouraging others to be all they can be. What she does for the children is set them up for the rest of their lives, by teaching them many things, and making them feel good about themselves. Because this has to happen on an emotional level, she and the father are the best suited for this. It is best when the mother and father work together to achieve this goal.

Of course an intelligent woman needs more than to spend her day with children day after day. Thank God for the Internet. I love to think how much better life would have been for pioneer women, if they had the Internet. In the past, women would have been active through their church or grange or other organizations doing social or charity work.
Social security was knowing if you got really sick, your neighbors would take turns cooking for you and sitting with you. I think we have lost consciousness of life experienced like this.

Not that everyone had a good life. God, some women were miserable and complained bitterly about the big fuse we made about slavery, while ignoring the worst conditions of slavery that was being a wife to a bad man. We are aware of women around the world, living lives of hell, and our tolerance of this sickens me. If a leader of a nation kills his own people we jump in, but if men abuse women, we do nothing.

Yet we have to have an ideal and principles that support that ideal, because we manifest our reality. Back to the opening statement, our feelings change and we should not make decisions based on our feelings. Very rarely does the first love we feel for someone last. That first love is very energy consuming, and we would have very short lives if spent that much energy day after day. Past this point, we need an ideal and principles to carry us through the less enjoyable times. I think that is the meaning of being an adult. We do it because it is the right thing to do and we take responsibility for the doing and the results. Especially when a child is conceived. Once that child is conceived we owe it to the child, to live for her/him and that means being committed to the other parent as well. Bottom line, it is about the child and the nation.

As a 22 year old who doesn't plan on having kids for at least 6 years, (btw ican afford them financially next year and have an emotional strong understanding of children and believe I could, currently, do a great job) maybe longer, maybe never, I'm not really talking abot partners in a family, I'm more talking about two individuals growing into new people, together, freely.

I understand that a large part of a relation has to do with creating a home for children to grow in, and this helps answer my question of inevitable ends, but as some one who doesn't want kids because I want to experience life more selfishly, its not really applying to my life in particular.

Is there no reason to spend your life with some other than making babies?

I'm beggining to understand you as an individual and the unuiqe perspective is interesting to me as I don't personaly know any happy home makers. Its a fun personality to talk to.

As I understand what you said earlier, like this: a roommate left you in a very bad situation. He proved to be untrustworthy. You like the woman you are with because you believe you can trust her. You are getting your human needs for such a relationship, met and that is a real energy saver, compared to dating many women and spending money on them in hope of getting what you want from them. This saving of energy, and possibly money too, gives you more time to focus on the studies. Obviously this is working well for you.

Now the question is, are you someone she can trust, or someone who will behave like your roommate? What we all think doesn't matter. What are her expectations? Have you asked her? Are you going to meet her expectations or not? Does she think you are just a temporary solution to her desire for companionship, or is she thinking she is making an investment in a long term relationship?

If you both agree you are only using each other for a term or two, that is fine, as long as a child is not conceived. However, if one you are using the other, and this is not mutual, then there is a problem of lack of virtues in honesty, responsibility and trustworthiness.

Perhaps I should clarify. The degree you may like her does not change the fact that you are using her, if that is what you are doing. People absolutely love their new cars, when they have the money to buy the car they want most. However, it is extremely unusual for someone to expect to use the car for a life time. Be clear about her expectations, okay? Be honest, responsible and trustworthy.