What makes a person bad? - Page 2

I think people can improve the world they live in by setting an example to others.

The wealthy needs to focus on creating a better country, not building jails, and not free handouts. We need to create incentive to allow investment to be put into more risky adventures to create job creation. As it stands right now capitalism only works for profitable firms and those that are considered not profitable are deemed to be closed. We need to put more investment in ventures that do not make money but serve towards the common good. These may include throwing more research into new prescription drugs as oppose to creating more types of Viagra simply because it is profitable. There is the market, the state and the people. Not always does the market serve or even the state serve in the best interests of the people.

Squarepants:

Tell me what Vigil has done so far that is helpful to the world. What examples has she set?

My point is that being optimistic does not actually do anything to help the world's situation. It takes a lot more effort than simply having ideas to make the world better. If you want to help the world, go to a soup kitchen. If you want to help the world, volunteer at a Salvation Army ,however, you will find that there are plenty of ungrateful people even when they are getting free food and a free place to sleep. Even when these people are dirt poor and need the help, they won't be grateful. They literally start to expect that they be helped. They start to think that they have the right to get help. No one has the right to get help! It's just nice that they can get help.Helping people like that , giving them things, is only enabling them to continue to be helpless because people are too lazy and selfish to take the help and use it to better themselves.

I've volunteered at a Salvation Army and the very same people always show up for dinner time. The very same people always need a place to stay. Let me tell you a little about how these shelters work in my town. It costs 50 dollars to stay at a Salvation Army for two weeks. After two weeks, you have to leave because the Salvation Army is supposed to be a last resort and for people who really need it. Well, after the two weeks is up, a lot of people go to another shelter that is just a little farther away and they stay there for two weeks. What do you think they do after the two weeks is up at the other shelter? They come back to the Salvation Army. People are content with living that way because it's easy. So many people take advantage of your kindness.

The system we have for helping people does not make the world better. You cannot be nice to people and hope that they will change their ways or make the good choice. If you want to really help someone, allow there to be real consequences for bad choices. People are lazy and selfish. They don't like to work, and they don't like to give. I'm not saying that we punish people, I'm just saying that being nice to people and hoping that they understand your kindness is a lost cause.

The world is filled with bad people because people no longer have to worry about failing.Giving people less consequences for their decisions is only going to allow them to make even more bad decisions without failing.People need to be held accountable for their own actions. It's not like the people who end up at the Salvation Army are people who made one mistake and their life fell apart. It takes mistake after mistake to end up in the situation where you are content with living at alternating shelters.

The problem is is that these things are supposed to be a safety net for when someone tries to succeed and fail. The safety net is so comfortable and sturdy that they feel like they don't need to try to succeed. They make a lifestyle out of failure because it has no consequence. Giving them less consequence is giving them more comfort in failure. Giving them more consequence is giving them less comfort in failure and more of a reason to succeed. If you pass off someones shortcomings as not their fault, you are breeding failure. Holding someone accountable is the only way to get them to succeed.

Hedgehog,

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My point is that being optimistic does not actually do anything to help the world's situation. It takes a lot more effort than simply having ideas to make the world better.

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Did you not say that a change in attitude is what the world needs? I think that looking at things from an optimistic viewpoint helps, more so than cynicism.

Anyway, I agree that it does take more than simply having ideas, but everything starts as an idea. I feel that I am aware that we need to put plans behind great ideals, which I pointed out before. Ideals with plans behind them have power.

I know how the world seems to be so full to the brim of people that just take advantage of everything, I am not trying to gloss over their excistance. I fully acknowledge them.

What I am saying however, is that those who believe in the greater good of humanity, will find ways to influence change, in whatever aspect of the world they choose, even if it takes them decade after decade.

I believe in helping people through systems. Education, for me, is a big one. I know that small acts of kindness have no great impact on the bigger problems going on in the world, and I'm not saying that this is how problems will be solved.

Personally, I see a lot of potential in the re-design of Education. I fully believe in the fact that it needs to change, and though I cannot state here once and for all that I know I will become a teacher, I have seriously considered it, and am continuing to. Whatever path I choose though, I am determined to make it something that I truly believe in.

Hedgehog:
Thats a very depressing out look, but you have helped others. Surley the drive thats in you to help others is also in other people. I think that by what your doing will influence others to bring the good out in them too, others will copy and pass it on.

"Did you not say that a change in attitude is what the world needs? I think that looking at things from an optimistic viewpoint helps, more so than cynicism."

I do believe the world needs a change in attitude. The change in attitude that I am referring to is an attitude of responsibility. People need to take care of themselves. An attitude of kindness is what you have and it does not and is not working. It never has worked and people have always taken advantage of kindness.

You also mentioned that you are willing to help the world even if it "takes decade after decade". Well, if you would like to do something about the world quicker than decades kindness is not the way to do it. it takes something a little more drastic to change the world quicker and what I am proposing will effect the world much quicker. An attitude of responsibility is what I propose so that people can actually learn from their mistakes and learn why the choices they made were good or bad. People need to have consequences.

I'm glad that you have an optimistic attitude and have faith in people but what do you actually propose we do about the worlds problems besides that we need to do something with education. That is sort of a vague proposition. What I propose we do is make people accountable for their actions and decisions. If that means that we have to do away with systems for help, then so be it. Even if we just straitened up the systems so that less people qualify and only people who absolutely need the help get it. It is way to easy to qualify for help. If I wanted to get food stamps, I could, because I could lie and it is just that easy.

Do you really still believe in helping people through systems even after I have informed you on how they play out. Of course we should keep education, but what about programs designed to aid people with money and such?

Squarepants:
Its not a depressing outlook, it is literally how it is. You know that there is suffering going on in the world and what do you do to change it? When you see those commercials with the starving kids, what do you do? Do you call and give money or do you ignore it? It is human nature to be selfish and we are all guilty, including myself. Read this article by Peter Singer just to get an idea of how selfish people really are. It's radical, but it is absolutely true.

http://people.brandeis.edu/~teuber/singermag.html

On a side note, I am graduating from college with a degree in elementary education next year and I feel that this field is exactly where I want to be and that it will give me an opportunity to do something to help the world. It's literally why I chose the field. I hope that if you decide to go into teaching that you enjoy it.

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An attitude of kindness is what you have and it does not and is not working.

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I disagree. My attitude is one of optimism, that putting plans behind ideals, so that they become ideas being put into action, is what I believe in.

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Well, if you would like to do something about the world quicker than decades kindness is not the way to do it. it takes something a little more drastic to change the world quicker

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I stand firmly in my belief that change takes time. I'm not saying anything about decades of kindness, I'm talking about ideas being put into action. Changing the way the educational system works, for instance, is an example of something that will probably take decades.

I don't understand why you are attatching me to this whole thing of effecting change through kindness, when I have already rejected this idea in my previous post.

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I'm glad that you have an optimistic attitude and have faith in people but what do you actually propose we do about the worlds problems besides that we need to do something with education. That is sort of a vague proposition.

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I don't think it's vague. I think education has a huge impact on society, our values and what we strive towards as a society. Find a thread in general that I started entitled "Have you reached a sense of fullfilment", or something along those lines. I think one of the 4th last posts, I talk about why the educational system needs to change and in what ways.

There are people with ideas on how things should change in the world, in all aspects of it.

Look at Jacker Jones for instance, stating what he believes needs to happen with economy. He has ideas, I don't know if he is willing to go about trying to influence change with them, but there is an example of someone willing to think about how their proffession/interests may possibly better the world.

Vigil:
So far, all you have said is that you think optimism and ideals are good, the education system needs to change,change takes time, and that lots of people have ideals to help the world. I agree with these things but these are simply ideas and they do not directly address any question. Of course putting ideals into action is how to change something but what ideals? What do you feel is wrong with the world? What do you feel is the most effective way to change it for the better? Do you feel the world is bad?

"My attitude is one of optimism, that putting plans behind ideals, so that they become ideas being put into action, is what I believe in."

Ok, I agree with you there, and I think that my ideal of having more responsibility is something that could be put into action. Are you saying that your ideal is to change education for the better and that that is how we can improve the world?

You have not addressed anything I have said about why the world is bad which is what this thread is about. This thread is not about what we can do to change the world although we have been discussing , vaguely, ways to do so. It is about why the world stinks and I have said many times that it is because people are generally lazy and selfish. How do you feel about that? Do you think people are lazy and selfish? I have given you examples of how my claim is true. If you disagree, give me an example. Tell me why.

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You have not addressed anything I have said about why the world is bad which is what this thread is about.

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"I think we've constructed ideals and values that really hold us back in terms of simply being happy with life and with ourselves, so our attention is drawn inwards at trying to help ourselves (or run from ourselves) more often than outwards, at the rest of society. We have a world that preys on our insecurities, and that breeds unhappiness"

I'd like to add that it also breeds hopelessness and helplessness, which only increases the chances of the world carrying on the way it is.

Let me be specific. I think the world suffers because we are suffering with things such as insecurity and fear. What gives us these problems, is that we value and idealise false notions that we inject society with - that being beautiful matters and that we should focus on trying to attain perfection, that being successful simply means being rich, that science is more important than art.

These are the things in the world that I think need to be changed. People seem so negatively lazy and selfish, because the world that they are surrounded by, cages them and makes them feel like they must be what it wants them to be, and they can't meet its impossible and silly standards.

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Now, why the world has come to be the way it currently is, might have something to do with society needing to catch up on an emotional understanding, all of the things that we have created and made possible for oursleves with our technology. Things such as the ability to cover up our blemishes, the ability to have plastic surgery, the ability to sell ourselves for profit, while still protecting ourselves against disease )

This is but one theory, I do not claim to know all of the workings of the world and why it is the way it is, but I do believe there is a cause to everything.

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people are generally lazy and selfish. How do you feel about that? Do you think people are lazy and selfish?

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Yes, but there are reasons that they are the way that they are. Cynicism can breed lazyness - because people believe that what they do, doesn't count for anything. They believe that the world they live in is unchangeable and that things will continue in negative ways.

(Edit: In the interest of further clarity, let me say that this relates to your experince with people who abuse the system. It is because they view that the world has mistreated them, is unfair & that their actions account for nothing. They don't believe they can be what the world wants them to be, or that they can challenge those notions. Because they don't feel like the world will accept them, they believe they are entitled. Perhaps this is one way that they justify taking advantage of charity programmes.

And I am not saying in any way that this excuses them and justifies their actions, but it does outline that yes, the world itself has problems and we need to identify them and change them, in order to guard against breeding these kinds of people in the first place)

I think that people are generally cynical about the world and about progression, but I know that there are people who do believe in progression and want to act on ideas that will support this movement.

Even though these people may be outnumbered, the validity of their ideals in terms of what is beneficial to the rest of humanity, will ultimately shine through and be achieved in the long term. For instance, changing school curriculum will not be a short term achievement, but once it is able to happen, I believe it will have great effect on the kinds of values and ideals that we currently hold in todays society.

Re-reading this thread, I feel the need to appologize for my lack of clarity up until now, though I am glad hedgehog, that you pointed out that you felt like I wasn't addressing the topic. Hopefully I am addressing the topic more directly in my last post, but I'm sure you'll let me know if I'm not.

Vigil

It is less important to me now to adress the issue of this thread to you than to adress your argue tactics, I hope you can learn from what I will say next.

You are twisting things to make it easier for you to talk, this shows me that you yourself are unsure of yourself, and considering you have admitted to an amount of insecureity in past threads I'll bring it up in this thread.

If when you read that you are twisting things your natural reaction was, "No I'm not! He is so irritating..." Or anything to that general affect (please do not play semantics with me) then you are not listening to me. You should be taking everything I say, and all other members of this site, as a possibility of truth.

I am right when I say you are twisting things, if you choose ignore it at acusation I will now give you the undeniable evidence that you are.

I told you that you see a heroine addict on the side of the road and that hes starving. Instead of accepting my condition and speaking on it accordingly you CHOSE (hedgehogs entire point) to twist it in your own little way. Why you chose this, I do not know, but you did choose it. You chose to tell me that if you saw a starving person, who looked like an addict.... whatever the rest is. Not an addict who looked like a starving person.

You see how what seems to be an interpretation is actually a transformation from my perspective, a somewhat cynical one I purposely portrayed, to a more optimistic one, the one you are more comfortable with.

Because you chose to transform what I said to what you heard you missed my main point and what I was trying to say went straight over your head. I feel that the same thing is happening with hedgehog.

I am telling you this because if you continue to choose to do this you are willingly, and at this point, knowingly CHOOSING to limit your perspective, as such, your learning ability.

You are literally choosing to twist what I say to fit your optimistic view, which is limiting your possible perspective. In other words, you are not broadening your horizons.

Do you agree that you did this or are you in disagreement.

I'll try to relate that to the bad people in the world.

Bad people make bad choices. When the opportunity comes for them to change they choose not to. Imagine any particular insecureity you have. Whether it be sex, stage fright, whatever. I'm sure you could conjure the feeling if you tried hard enough. That is the same feeling that so many people fall victim to when they choose to be a bad person.

I hope that I was correct in my assumption of you, not because I want to be right, but if I was ( for the sake of arguing, for this particular statement just assume I was. just use the feelings of insecureity to relate) but if I was and if you chose to accept it and if you chose to change you now know how easy it is to better yourself. The choice that I'm sure you would have made is the same choice that countless people chose not to make, which is what makes them terrible people...

I know this is a big stretch, you catch my drift?

I understand that I may have carried off on tangents during this discussion, but I honestly am not aware that I am twisting anything and if I have been, then I appologize and have you know, that I have done it completely unawares.

It makes no difference to me if I address your point of the heroine addict who was starving, exactly as you stated it. I can accept that description and still answer you exactly the way I did.

I am open to the view that I am twisting things to make it easier for myself to talk, & I have admitted that my going off on tangents may have clouded the topic and other peoples posts.

If you continue to address the topic itself, point out where in my opinions that I am twisting things and I will be sure to take note of this and re-evaluate the way I am approaching the subject.

I suspect that a reason why it may seem that I am twisting anything, is because I am not understanding other peoples posts correctly, as they wish to be understood. I do not know if this is because they lack clarity or I am simply not comprehending ideas well enough.

I do not feel that I am here to be "right" about anything, and in this thread, I am simply stating what I honestly believe and I am open to people telling me that my perception of the world is false and unrealistic.

Wow hegehog so negative! The homeless will work look at squigee boys. Clear cut example, but then people feel insecure about associating with the homeless because it makes them queezy.

I have a solution to you problem. That people won't work need to accept everything for free etcetera. Why not impose a monetary system like Ithaca dollars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_Hours

Make people donate their time, which they have lots of because they don't work and do chores at people's houses. Make them wash your car haha. You really just need a list of some people who need work done, that takes no skill and exchange it for a "ithica dollar" which can be exchanged for rent.

Obviously there are some people who simply won't but don't be surprised if some people would be willing to do this.

Vigil- So I may be wrong. Some one once gave me the advice, speak to someone as you would have them understand you, not as you would have them hear you. Whether I am wrong or not, I will tell you to listen to people as they would have you understand them. Not that you don't already do that, but now that I have accused you, you may see in the future how I could be right, and I hope you chose the road less traveled.

What makes a person bad?

We have two arguments.

Hedgehog says that peoples lack of responsible, and often times difficult, choice leads to their own destruction.

Vigil says that it is the negative influences that society places on individuals that makes the choice nearly impossible. Like fate.

Does the group agree that these are the two arguments?

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Some one once gave me the advice, speak to someone as you would have them understand you, not as you would have them hear you.

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I think that is really good advice awakened, and I am glad that you have stopped me and made me reconsider how I am approaching this. I realise that I have been talking more so to have my opinions heard and not necessarily understood. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

I think hedgehog is right in saying that people lack responsibility for choices and they do choose choices that lead them to their own destruction.

So we both agree that there is lack of repsonsibility.

Now, reasons for why people lack such responsibility and what problems we should be addressing in order to tackle this issue, is where we seem to lack clarification.

Hedgehog says, or what I have interpreted her to have said, is that the root of the problem (of lack of responsibility) is simply the fact that we have made the world too safe and so people have no incentive to act responsibility. It follows that she believes we should provide people with real consequences by making help harder to attain, so that people can't abuse the system. Is this correct?

I say that the root of the problem is the world and the ideals we have structured around ourselves, which are negative and fill us with fear and insecurity, which is what I believe to be the main reason why people are so unwilling to take responsibility in the first place. My logic follows that we need to target long term change in order to affect change in peoples attitudes within the world, as well as in themselves, in the interest of definite and long-term change.

Hmm, what say you?