What is the root cause of atheist's disbelief and are they qualified to debate theism? - Page 2

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As for being kind every way of life teaches this because it helps us as a whole achieve greater things. Being that this is taught in every religion as well as those not religious I would say this is a way of life. So you can't really say it's religious because it's taught whether or not you are religious.

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I doubt many true nihilists would consider themselves religious.

I was going to post this in the segregate atheist/agnostic forum but figured this would be a better place. It hit me a bit hard so if this is removed or I'm asked to delete it I understand.
I'm sure you have read about witch trials in the past right? You know those ones where witches were hunted and killed with ridiculous methods of torture to get the person to confess they are a witch?
Well we have it again.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/witch-hunt-africas-hidden
-war-on-women-1642907.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_petraitis/witch_killers.s
html
http://harlcazz.bravepages.com/library/Paganism/Pagan%20History%20and%20
Facts/Witchhunts%20in%20Africa.htm

Its ok, I'm sure Christians only want to preach about the love of other Christians, as long as it's the CORRECT following ie yours. Let's continue to focus on the teachings of the BIBLE rather than real world applications like mathematics, literacy and science. Let's make sure those poor people know they are going to hell if they don't follow the BIBLE rather than teach them how to govern themselves, build better homes, farms and schools.

By the way, while I was deployed in the desert, my fiancé was attending church heavily. She knows my point of view and what a surprise it was when the preacher was telling her that I could not love her because I didn't know the concept of love, because I didn't accept Jesus into my heart.
We have been together for nearly five years now, married for almost one. My career is jeopardized because of her nationality, and guess what? My boss heard of this whom is Christian by the way, suggested I learned to love someone else for the sake of my career advancement.

Mind you I grew up Christian, and I was until I hit eleven. I looked out the window and realized everything, including the sun, had a life span. From there everything Church tried to teach me seemed to come apart after putting forth some thought. No one told me to be what I am, it came to me. That's the difference between Theists and non-theists. If you're afraid of what non-theists might say? Go back to your fantasy world in church. This is reality, life, the one you have, your experience, the one chance we have to live.
If it's so important to you to devote so much time into getting others to follow your belief, then by all means. I would rather see mankind return to the moon, build a great civilization of peace and prosperity, travel to the stars, or even dance.


We are human. Let us live and enjoy what little life we have. Why smother the beauty of our possibility with such mundane and barbaric actions?

Allimar,
Disturbing stuff, ignorance is contagious, viral and no one is immune. Blaming most killing in the world on any belief is a naive. People who kill people are murderers, people who hurt people are depraved. You have indicated the most disturbing nature of mankind; we are selfish, ignorant, and savage. Yes people do terrible things to other people for many 'reasons', perhaps to mitigate the fact they are murderers or depraved. A list of reasons that are ultimately at the root of killing:
- Difference in belief (Ideology and Religion)
- Survival
- A cause
- Accident
- Incompetence
- Misunderstanding
- Depravity
- Passion
- Thoughtlessness
- Excitement
- Lust
- Profit
- Freedom
- Oppression
- Power
- Land
- Threat or perceived threat
- Self defence
- Defence of country
- Justice
- Punishment
- Defence of innocent
- Hate
- Greed
- Jealousy
- Prejudice
- Ignorance
- Race
- Mental illness
- Impaired judgement
- Negligence
- Apathy
Cool video!

Yeah I get Goosebumps watching it. I find it very inspiring.
You are right though that it is a bit unjust to say one religion is the sole reason for tragedies, but you have to admit sometimes they kindle fire.
However as a counter argument, honestly I've been waiting for this to come up, is that religions such as Christianity try to instill a fear into the actions of people; This to hopefully deter people from, 'sinful actions' due to a lifetime of suffering for such actions.
Back to the subject, are agnostics/atheists qualified to debate theism? I would qualify only few people to be actually qualified to debate theism. But that depends on where you put the bar as qualified. We had an Idiot for a president for eight years so I would say many people don't put the bar of qualification very high. So if Bush Jr is considered qualified to run what was the most dominating country in most categories then anybody is considered qualified to debate theism.

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Firstly, regarding the deduction example I gave, your reponse to me is just specifying that most probable deductions are more complicated than the one I gave. But overall it appears you do agree that given more accuracy there are many logical deductions you would follow that use the same general principle, that premises join together and conclusions can be formed using them. These conclusions are therefore probable.

Yes?

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Decius,
Are you asking me or telling me, nevertheless: yes. I agree it does indicate probability, although inherent in probably is error and probability for error. Pure logic and proof through logic is a skill not easily learned; yes it has to be learned, it has rules and must include or exclude assumptions. Pure logic is entirely objective if used expertly. If the application and process is not expert, the probability for error is greater and can result in 100% error.

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All the things you are describing serve as premises which doesn't seem to escape the definition of deduction according to me. And mistakes happening do not negate deduction at all - they just reflect incorrect premises. One may leave the stove on because they believe it is good for the plants - this would be an incorrect deduction even though it utilizes the same method outlined above. So, if this is the case, would you then agree that you utilize this method of deduction to govern almost all your decisions?

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Almost all yes, SWOT another method, however emotion plays a part like: empathy, trust, honour, kindness, guilt and compassion. To suggest 'If you conduct your life in this manner, trusting and investing in probability, then doesn't it form a psychological abnormality for you to subscribe to something improbable' is preposterous. A person with the absence of emotion in decision making is called a sociopath and that is a 'psychological abnormality'.

I love how allimar points out issues of injustice that the catholic church participates. Would the Catholic church constitute an institute that pretends to be just while actually being unjust???? Maybe not everyone but the history of it definitely during medieval times represents such an institution.

Decius,
What you have described is a conditioned response, instinctual. I was thinking of a decision that affects others.

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However as a counter argument, honestly I've been waiting for this to come up, is that religions such as Christianity try to instill a fear into the actions of people; This to hopefully deter people from, 'sinful actions' due to a lifetime of suffering for such actions.

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Allimar,
Grace is God's gift of savation and is freely given to everyone, damnation is the ultimate consequence for being harsely judged. For fear to be an effective motivator it must pose an immediate danger or threat. It is unlikely that much fear could be instilled by a consequence viewed as far away and well into the future.
I suppose this misconception comes from the term "God fearing" in the Bible, the phrase actualy means "One who follows the precepts of a religious practice and respects and reveres God and His authority". I does not mean afraid of God. The only people that are afraid God are the ones that don't know Him, it is a loving and forgiving relationship. The motivator is love, love God, love others as you love yourself.

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The idea of hell is not the same as cancer. Cancer is a possibility at some point in the future that may never happen. Hence, it does not trigger the survival instinct, and hence, fear.
Damnation is a definite outcome, and although factually that threat is supposed to exist when you die, the fact that you will be sent there for sure when you die unless you repent sufficiently or receive the grace of God (which has no definite criterea), that fear becomes immediate.
It triggers your survival instinct because you could die tomorrow, and if you died tomorrow, you would go to hell. Hence, every day your survival instinct is kicked in, and you fear, in order to avoid the idea of an eternity of pain.

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For me hell, damnation and cancer are all possibilities and I fear none, more specifically I have a diagnosed heart condition, I know will kill me and I don't fear it either. Irrational worry/fear is overcome with reason; fear of the unknown is outcome with knowledge, and any fear overcome with bravery or positive action. We are in control of worry/fear through reason and our actions and not belief structure. Survival instinct is a basic or primal instinct, we are intelligent and emotional so decisions can defy logic for emotional reason or defy instinct for intelligent reason.
Damnation or salvation are both possible outcomes based upon the sum of our lives, we are in control of our actions but not the judgement. To an extreme, I would risk my life to save the lives of my daughters or wife; I would choose high risk sacrifice over survival (I intervened when a group of teens including my daughter was threatened by a gang armed with knives). I saw fear in them, though they did not fear me. I approached the leader in a non-threatening manner and spoke in a whisper so only he could hear and reasoned with him and tragedy was averted. Will this action bring me salvation? I don't know. Was it the reasonable or logical that I acted that way? No, it was 1 against 10. Was I afraid? No. Did it counter my survival instinct? Yes.

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It is extremely similar to, for example, murdering someone. If you're not sure you got away with it or not, you will always be afraid that someone will come knocking on your door to take you away. In the case of Christianity that system is already in place (due to original sin), except, as long as you constantly repent for the "murder" (or sin of eating the apple), when the police does come, you will be protected.
So, you can see how you are not really free to reject Christ's sacrifice, and God, if you believe you are a "murderer" and that the police are coming to get you anyday.

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You are free to reject it, in the moment before you chose to murder; repentance and atonement are equivalent to the sin. What do you suppose the atonement for taking a life is? Only God knows. Guilt is not reserved for deists, guilt tortures all except those who cannot feel i.e. sociopath. If you live a life free of guilt you are freed to enjoy it and that is independent of, but supported by a belief structure.
I am very familiar with the Christian theology among others and your arguments contradict my understanding. What is your background of knowledge in theology? Is your arguement based on reason, research or observation? If you are in a position of knowing (research), what would explain this contradiction? Do we interpret the same theology differently assuming we have acquired the same knowledge?

"A confidence in the existance of heaven and your ticket into it can "free" you to do a lot of things, and be hopeful in a lot of situations."

Is this the love and freedom that religious people say they have? Is this the reward for being a good boy? Confidence in salvation?

awaikenedwrath said

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"A confidence in the existance of heaven and your ticket into it can "free" you to do a lot of things, and be hopeful in a lot of situations."

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That is a beautiful thought.

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Is this the love and freedom that religious people say they have? Is this the reward for being a good boy? Confidence in salvation?

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Perhaps these are rhetorical questions, but I will try to answer from my point of view.
Love is love in abundance, feeling unconditional love and loving unconditionally. Freedom is the chains of guilt broken. The reward for being a good boy is lack of consequence, paying it forward and good relationships. Confidence no, more like faith.

"In my life experience, I have learnt that the latter is a much greater, much more appreciated, and much more holy gift to give another individual - the gift of respect."

This is why we are qualified.

By the way, your love and freedom is felt fully in all peoples. Your Christ or God has nothing to do with it. I brought up those questions for a reason, and that was to show you that those things are not directly related to theism, but spirituality. I am a very spiritual person, I even have rituals, but I have no God and no salvation, only the hope that one day I can feel that I have done the best that I could, and that I have accomplished my own goals. I don't need anybody to tell me that what I am doing is good or bad, and I don't need a reward.

I apologize if that sounded sarcastic, had you heard my voice it would sound differently.

I am a hopeless romantic, the words that awakendwraith wrote moved me. My comment was from my heart, there is no logic, no argument in that.
Just two humans sharing a moment, no sarcasm taken, no disrespect intended.
Awakendwraith speaks beautifully of life and relationships, you have my respect and I am humbled.

Appreciated.

You are humble to whom you respect. It takes much to alter one's life, though a degree closer to understanding another.