the Holocaust of north and south america.

ethnic cleansing cultural extermination and systematic murder oh my. I have noticed that a debate exists with in canada and the U.S. Over the North Amarican Genocide and its implications. I realise that all countrys seem to have massive crimes against humanity on their concscience. North Amarica seems to have one of the longest and most devistating standing history of ethnic cleansing in our world history. The oppression against the native amaricans have gone on for more than four hundred years and though life has improved and the healing progress seems to be wobbling along its way along. We are still how ever faced with challenges one of the biggest ones is voluntary segregation. Alot of areas in north amarica still reek with cultural animosity and the division of people. It seems as though there is a lack of acknowledgement of the dammage that has been done this is a very difficult problem one that i feel is worth discussion and possible solutions.

if you google north american Holocaust you will find a great deal of evidence wich i have already studied to back up my statements.

"Consider this data, and estimates from it, on our selected Holocausts (M = million, k = thousand, yr = year):

Western Hemisphere Native Americans
1492: 72 M to 113 M, a good estimate is 75 M (15% of the world population).
1980: 28 M, (minimum occurred around 1900, growth since).

Native Americans north of Mexico (Rio Grande)
1492: 1 M to 18 M, modern estimates cluster at 4 M to 7 M, a good estimate is 6 M (portion for USA: 5 M).
1900: 400,000, (the minimum, population has grown since, portion for USA: 250,000).
1980: 2 M."

I will admit one thing about these figures. These are researched estimates so their is a margine of error. Most historians seem to be close in their figures to each other. some say that at one point the native amarican population was reduced to 2.3 percent of its numbers since the arival of the spaniards. I could give you a lot of evidence my self but i hope this bit will inspire you research into this epoch of history. My cousin is a curator in a museum and specialises in Native history. we have talked about this debate a good deal. she was always dismayed about how much of the cultures and languages are totally lost to us today.

Your post's points and figures are scattered and ambiguous.

Who is killing whom, how, and how are they getting away with it, so that it may be corrected.

If you want anyone to have a discussion on such a topic, you could be more clear in your presentation.

What can you say is happenning now in terms of systematic murder of any particular group of individuals, native american or not, in north america?

As for culture loss and segregation, I don't know if you realize that America is an amalgamation of cultures, all of which wax and wane in popular culture and personal practice as well as experience conflict due to history and general nonsense as well as seeking to be "the" dominant culture.

And most segregation is like you said, voluntary. Often forcefully so by those who don't want to share their culture with "outsiders" etc.

This includes many Native American cultures which were warring within themselves and slaughtering eachother as well.

Given this ambiguity, you really leave no one with anything to talk about.

I would suggest you name some names and give some direct thoughts of your own on the subject and what you would like to see done about it.

I could write an article on the subject it is a big subject.
I recognise that the worst of the oppression and destruction of native civilisations is over but there are still realy bad residual effects. generational alchoholism is one of the ugliest not to mention the dammaged caused by those fetid pits of inequity known as the reservation schools. It seems that your arguement. I think that the voluntary segregation is more based on anger and shame than not people effected by opression not wanting to share their culture. I think you will find most Native Historians Artists and religious men would love to share their culture with any one seeing how close it came to extinction. I understand that Native tribes were sometimes at war with each other. My Grandmothers tribe the Haida in fact could be compared to the zulus or the mongols. although the haida were not generaly known for total extermination of their enemys and had very strict rules governing war. One of the most clever ways of subjegating a group of people is to devide and conquer. this tactic was used in ireland drawing a line between people and letting them slaughter each other. The ureopeans were notorious for offering tribes extra land and rights to help them subjugate other tribes. The tribes that helped uropeans with few exceptions were either slaughtered in turn or were kicked of their land.
though I am flattered that you would like to hear some of my personal thoughts on this subject but i was certain that a good deal of what i was writing was coming out of my head. I could not respect my self as a scholar if I didnt use references to historical documents as my main source for this discussion.
I would like to see more social recognition of the history and the implications of the north amarican holocaust. Our governments though they were not the governments at the time should take responsibility for the crimes of the past and work towards educating the people to not be so self rightious. you point out the tolerance of todays american society and thats all fine and dandy, You still have to admit that our culture and our style of government is not that multi cultural. Though our respective governments attempt to be tolerant of other peoples cultures and beliefs our society is organized according to the archiotype of a euro christian society. The melting pot concept is one that is used as a weak answer to the social injustices of the present day and the past

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It seems that your arguement. I think that the voluntary segregation is more based on anger and shame than not people effected by opression not wanting to share their culture.

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This is not coherent enough for me to properly understand.

But in attempt to further clarify from my end, I have made no argument nor expressed any belief of any one "truth" over another, as I could not as there was nothing to argue against.

I merely referenced perspectives seeking to further my understanding of your knowledge, perspective, and purpose.

Also, the point of my speaking of the cultural issue was to, again, attempt to clarify what you were talking about specifically.

Because the context of your thread was directly mentioning a holocause of native americans, but then ambiguously it veers off and speaks of cultural animosities, voluntary segregations, and divisions of people within the americas, which would then include all of the other cultures in the americas and their related struggles with the exact same areas of concern as mentioned. Leaving one confused as to your exact point or purpose.

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i was certain that a good deal of what i was writing was coming out of my head.

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But you weren't saying anything, which was my entire point.

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Our governments though they were not the governments at the time should take responsibility for the crimes of the past and work towards educating the people to not be so self rightious.

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Who is being self righteous and about what?

And be wary of casting stones for acts you may be guilty of.

And if our government wasn't our government, nor then is anyone alive who can take actual responsibility for any such act, then why and how would such a thing be possible.

If you mean acknowledge history and teach is properly, than just say so. But it sounds to me as if you may be seeking something else.

And if you mean addressing laws put in place after the fact when indeed the american government did address this issue and take some sort of responsibility for it, to which I am no where near well informed of all the details and circumstances, but I do know reservations exist because of it, and that I give indians money out of my own blood sweat and tears every day of my life, then feel free to specify and address this as well.

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The melting pot concept is one that is used as a weak answer to the social injustices of the present day and the past

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If that was its intention, you would be correct, but it was not, it was the only logical equally ambiguous response available to address and unclear point of clashing civilizations.

You speak of the a declining culture in the face of other cultures, you specified one culture and its struggle amongst the exact plight of all cultures as caused by multiple cultures over hundreds of years.

How many cultures that have existed do so no longer?

So my statement was not an excuse for these realities but a begging for clarification as to what your point was, who you were pointing fingers at, and what you wanted done about it.

So far, it appears you would like education on the subject, and that is really all that can be conclusively derived from your posistion.

The sad thing is, you probably want the government to fix whatever it is exactly that you see as broken.

And to make the point, any bluntness or crassness of mine is unintentional in terms of any potential conflict over understanding.

forgive me for the confusion i caused with my reference to the reasoning for voluntary segregation. I will clarify my point and maby you could comment on it

I think that the voluntary segregation is more based on anger and shame than not people effected by opression not wanting to share their culture.

It is hard to mention the amarican holocaust with out mentioning the aftermath of it. If I felt as though the damage has been fixed I would not have started this thread. However life experience and intensive study has taught me that the indiginous peoples of north amarica have taken a blow that makes the potato famine look like a walk in the park and are still reeling from it. governments have to take responsibility for the damage done because the Native Americans are Their people as well as any one else in north america. I do recognize the large amount of treatys signed between the native tribes and uropean governments, but these treatys have been broken by all forms of north american governments. The treatys have only served corrupt chiefs and the government itself. but evidence based on quality of life in reservations shows that something is still dreadfully wrong.


Here is a quick story for you that may help you to better understand the reasoning for this thread.

I work as a grocery manager for my day job. one day at work we were giving baloons away and i offered a baloon to a little native girl and her mother said "are you sure she can have one we are indians" Her statement from my stand point seemed perpostorous.
i think this story is a small example of shame and self depreciation that is one of the biggests gaps between our cultures and it is i am sure you will agree a very bad thing.
I realise that cultures fade away and some times whole people are whiped out in the marching forward of history, but as one who has learned alot from other cultures and who has learned to appreciate them all even our own i can say that instead of destroying and assimilating cultures we could learn from them better those cultures and our own. my specific point of this thread was to seek help in perhaps finding ways of taking responsibility and setting things right. i realise that it is a difficult and complicated task but if we could pull it off we would set a presidence to be followed and perhaps we could learn from our mistakes. perhaps you have some sugestions

if it seems as though my original thread is ambigious I apologise. I feel as though this is a very open ended subject that two people could spend a life time discussing. I feel that my thread was a good way to start a good exchange of ideas. I will however remember your critisism and try to aply it to strengthen my aproach to philosophy