Karma - Page 3

I understood what he was saying. I understood what he was defining karma as. I merely disagree with him, reasonably so. I do so because I see no karma in a rock accidentally being kicked, at any level. Saying that a rock has once had feelings, is not an impossibility. But to say that it is probable, I believe, is an example of him stretching his views for the sake of not saying, "Ok, what i meant was..."

I understand that karma, acording to him, is not simplistic, and that when he says karma, what he is trying to imply, is that all things are effected by cause, and all effects cause causes, therefor there is an endless cycle in the cosmos of cause and effect. I was trying to tell him that I disagree, because I see no such results in a rock being accidentally kicked, as hedgehog put it.

It was not his definition of karma that was upsetting, it was what I believed to be his inability to listen and communicate.

....

In the beggining I made a light hearted post. I said, I double dog dare you to provide any substantial evidence that karma is real. After that, the conversation went to an annoying halt, becuase what he felt karma was, and what I felt karma was, were two completely different things. I gave up on the conversation at that point, becuase I attempted to tell him so and his responses were condescending and arrogent.

Then hedgehog made an attempt at coming to a middle ground on what karma is, by defining what she thought it was, and giving reason as such. The reason why coming to a middle ground was so important was because it is important to understand what one another is saying so that we discuss the correct meaning of letters put together rather than bicker of misinterpreted ideals.

At the end of the conversation, she repeatedly asked him the same question. How is kicking a rock karma? Replies were given as follows

What if the rock was kicked in anger?

What if it was kicked in order to score a goal?

Those two questions are entirely irrelevant. Because the question was asked to show an example of how a simple action like a tumbling rock is in no way spiritual, because there is no effect. As I stated, if I fart in a room by myself, and no one smells it, then there was no karma. Its not as if any consequences will come from that, either than the feeling in my stomach. My stomach feeling less gassy is cause and effect, yes, but simply because it is cause and effect does not make it karma....

I apologize, I'm not doing a good job at communicating. I'd like to leave what is up there as a reference to what I was thinking. The rest of this post will be more coherent. I apologize for being unclear.

This is what it sounds like he is saying.

Karma is a spiritual thing.
Karma holds to the rules of cause and effect.
Good people have good things happen, bad people have bad things happen

"1. Results are similar to the cause. Simply said, when I cause other people harm, I will harvest suffering myself. It is important to note here, that "positive" actions are defined as actions that have happiness as a result; "negative" actions are defined as actions that lead to suffering as a result.

2. No results without a cause. As is obvious within science, things do not just appear out of nothing

3. Once an action is done, the result is never lost. Similarly as above, things do not just disappear into nothing."


That is what I gathered from what I qouted above.

Now, as hedgehog said, to me, it appears as if he is using the following logic when speaking of cause and effect validating all things as karma.

All sqaures (karma) are rectangles (cause and effect) Therefor, all rectangles (cause and effect) are sqaures ( karma)

This logic is simple wrong, math will tell you so. The posed question of kicking a rock was to give perspective on what I believe both of us saw to be an invalid procces of logic and reason.

If any of you understand what I am saying, about the sqaures and rectengles, (which I'm sure you do, that was not supposed to sound condecending in the least bit) please tell me where I would be wrong in saying that just because cause and effect is present, it does not make it karma. And that there are some things in life that can have cause and effect without invoking karma. Much like passing gas, or a drop of water on my forehead.

"I know what karma is. That is not what I asked you to explain to me. How is the example of the rock an example of karma, because according to you, cause and effect is karma?"

"This is not absurd - it is the core belief behind Buddhism, which was regarded by Einstein as the only religion for the future. Try to understand what the guy is saying, and educate yourself. Karma is not limited to humans, as per nyrla's definition - it includes the entire cosmos, and all matter and energy within that cosmos has an "energy", or "soul", even if it seems mundane and "dead" to you"

This is off topic and I apologize, but you kinda struck a nerve.

She tells you that she understands him and that all she wants to know is how kicking the rock validates karma. What makes you think she hasnt educated herself? It looks to me as if she simply disagrees with the following statement. (which by the way, to me, sounds kind of cocky)

"it includes the entire cosmos, and all matter and energy within that cosmos has an "energy", or "soul", even if it seems mundane and "dead" to you"

Perhaps she disagrees. What makes that idea invalid? What if it is more than seeming dead, but is?

I understand that nothing in the univeres gets "wasted" and that we all come from the same thing, but not all things are living. That is why there are two forms of matter. Organic and inorganic.

I am asking you personally decius, is it unreasonable to feel that it IS actually dead? Further more, that it has never been alive? She did give you time frames that provided evidence towards her case.....

I get the feeling you are misinterpreting me...

THANK YOU DECIUS you have explained what I was trying to say to some of these fellows in a nutshell. After I had been studdying Buhdism for a while I came a cross a documentary about quantum physics. It was suggested in this documentary by a specialist in this field that Bhudda was The first Quantuam physicist. I am only a student of karmic law so i am only trying to open up discourse on the subject. If any one here really wants to learn some of the philosophy behind Karma look into some literature on the subject and make your own conclusions. But let me add this last point. for dumb kid and hedge hog.

As one who studdys Bhudism and the writings of the dalai lama and other mystics who practice karmic law I can see that you have barely scratched the surface of the universiality of Karma after you have done some research into the field start up a fresh post on the subject about your doubts.

by the way dumb kid you did bring up one good point through out this dialogue you mentioned that buhdism amongst other religions was a tool for pacifying the people. You couldnt have been more historicaly accurate. Most forms of buhdism encourage its practitioners to practice non violence. I cant remember what year exactly. China and tibet border each other for along time. Tibet stood between china and mongolia. The chinese became so advanced that they could have walked over tibet at the time. so they made a deal with the ruler of tibet that if he spread bhudism into mongolia to pacify the mongols that china would be tibets protector.

Decius, I am posting this because I want you to understand me.

Thanks for helping me realize where he was coming from, if that is in fact where he is coming from. The idea of karma makes sense to me now, and I feel that I am more equipped to discuss this idea. However, I don't see any reason to because I simply cannot believe in something without true evidence.(true evidence to me is something I can experience with my five senses.) In fact, I realize now that I became less willing to learn when I felt that Nyrla was telling me that karma did exist. For someone to tell me that they KNOW that something exists like karma, it seems arrogant because how can anyone know anything? From now on I will try try to remember to discuss my ideals rather than my feelings.
One more important thing that I have learned is that I was assuming that the other person understood things that I presumed to be basic knowledge and instead of assuming that someone would understand me, I should just have explained where I was coming from. I really am trying to learn from this.

In answer to hedgehog and decius Karma itself is just a word.
a word we use to describe the pure state of reality. I agree with hedgehog to a certain extent. belief in Karma is not really important cause the word is just a cymbol of the higher reality. As soon as you give a name to something you limit it. If I or any one here every achieve enlightenment we will likely leave the concept of karma behind for an even more pure understanding of reality. I believe in Karma because after carefull anylitical thought and study i see in it a stepping stone bringing us closer to a real logical explanation for reality.

is karma that thing where you find pleasure in kicking the crap out of a chavs coz it sure as hell works 4 me

It sure seems that, in life, the most wicked people get everything good, and the best people get horrible tragedies over and over.

simple, say you slack of in school and latter have a shitty life because you don't now how to interact with the world around you in an intelligible manner. treat those around you with respect you get respect in turn ect. ect., then - beyond simple minded explainations - there is the world of metaphysics and physchology, think of your past does it not influnce your desitions of your future, is there things that you may or may not have done that are influencing the present? all consequences of these actions are just that, results. Karma is to my mind the word used by such ancient philosophies as to gauge ones overall status, homeless man or "untouchables" as they would say in india bad karma, happy man with a good partner in life and little troubles good karma. karma is real, not always fair but real and influenced by the paths you choose to take in life. thats what I think it is anyway =)