Karma - Page 2

No. It is my beliefe that if you can not understand what I am trying to say at this point, then there is no hope for you. I believe that you DO understand me, but simply choose to ignore it for the sake of arguing. A person like that need only be ignored.

The RIGHT definition of Karma is irrelevant. They all explain karma in a defferent way. His explanation of karma, though seems simillar in style, is a complete rendition if the real definition of karma. Karma has to do with true theology and hinduism. That is a fact. Cause and effect, (BY THE WAY, I NEVER SAID CAUSE AND EFFECT DIDN'T EXIST I ONLY SAID THAT IT IS NOT THE SAME AS KARMA) is a truth in the world. Things happend because of other things. That is obviously true and needs no dispute. But you guys on the other hand, feel the need to argue petty things for teh sake of NOT LISTENING to someone.

I am done with nyrlathotep as a whole.

If cause and effect are a fact then karma is a strong and valid concept. If you perhaps look into it a little you will see the logic in it. I am dissapointed that I was unable to explain the concept of karma well enough for you.

nyrlathotep, all you have done is renamed cause and effect as karma. They are not the same. An example of karma would be a man who refuses to give to the poor for selfish needs and then becomes bankrupt. Cause and effect would be if a boy kicked a ball and the ball rolled in effect. Karma assumes that a divine being is making judgment on our actions. I don't see judgment in any way,if a ball rolled because I kicked it.

quote:

---

nyrlathotep, all you have done is renamed cause and effect as karma. They are not the same. An example of karma would be a man who refuses to give to the poor for selfish needs and then becomes bankrupt. Cause and effect would be if a boy kicked a ball and the ball rolled in effect. Karma assumes that a divine being is making judgment on our actions. I don't see judgment in any way,if a ball rolled because I kicked it.

---

That's a naive view of karma in my opinion. Reality is more complex than that. Chances are if you're stingy with other people, you're stingy with yourself. If you can't love other people then you can't love yourself and vice versa. Is that cause and effect? Yah. Karma is an older term than "cause and effect" though and sounds nicer. Karma also has some spiritual connotations too which is interesting.

Why would and a really old word like karma which is basically a synonym for cause and effect also have a spiritual meaning?

I don't think ancient people were as naive and stupid as we like to think they were.

quote:

---

Karma also has some spiritual connotations too which is interesting.

---

You have labeled karma as a spiritual thing. You have also named karma cause and effect. Kicking a ball and the ball rolling is cause and effect. Please explain to me how this specific example of cause and effect is spiritual.

What I have gathered from your interpretation of karma and cause and effect is that because karma is cause and effect , cause and effect therefore must be karma. This logic as I see it, is saying that all squares are rectangles therefore all rectangles must be squares. I understand how you can relate karma as cause and effect, but to interpret all cause and effect as karma does not make sense,for instance, the example of the boy kicking the ball.

quote:

---

the example of the boy kicking the ball.

---

Yah I'd say that's karma too although it's pretty mundane and obvious. Karma would extend beyond that though. There's a lot you left out in that example.

For instance, was the ball kicked in anger at someone? Was it kicked in a soccer game to a teammate to try to score a goal? In the case of the person who kicked the ball in anger at someone, the karma would most likely be that that person would be angry at you and treat you accordingly. The effects would even extend beyond that as it seems that every action has infinite (or almost infinite) consequences.

Your adding things to this to make yourself right.

Show some humility and assume that there is a chance that you do not understand her. Then, reasses your outlook on what she is saying, and try to come to a NEW understanding, for the sake of becoming more, instead of defending an idea for the sake of not being wrong, which is obviously what you and you friend are doing.

She isnt saying out of anger. She is saying, how is a boy kicking a ball and the ball rolling (aka, cause and effect) spiritual (aka karma)

Answer the simple question that she asked you, then begin to build on it.

Becasue the problem here is that the poeple in this conversation have a different definition of the meaning of karma. We are trying to come to a common ground by posing simple questions as to come to a common understanding, and you are playing words games.

Please, for the sake of coming to a common ground, answer the simple question.

Lol, your sock puppets are so transparent. Do you even try? And I'm not defending this point because I'm friends with nyrla, I don't even know the guy.

In a sense everything can be spiritual and nothing can be spiritual, depends on your perception. There was a reason that person kicked that ball and it has endless consequences whether that person likes it or not. And the consequences aren't as simple as 1+1=2 like you think it is. There's a quote by Satre that I think sums this up pretty well - "Man is condemned to be free."

Chris has yet to change his definition, he has simple expanded on it. He's saying its an encompassing whole that judges someone on all aspects of their being. That karma holds you responsible for your actions and thoughts and all things have adverse effects on reality.

For example I think to myself hey I'll help an old lady across the street because she is weak and no longer contains the ability to do so with ease. Then karma would award me for such actions. If I say hey if I help this old lady across the street and someone see's me maybe they'll think I'm nice person. Karma will not reward in the same manner. Not to say there will not be repercussion from either actions but they will differ.

Karma as defined by chris(at least how I interpreted it) is how I view the world consequences are made up of thought, soul and action not just cause and effect.

Why are you insulting me? I am simply trying to find some common ground as dumbKid said. I do not agree with your definition of karma and in order to discuss the subject, the definition must be agreed upon. Other wise we will be discussing two different things. Try to listen to me instead of simply ignoring me. If all cause and effect was the same as karma, then that would me that if I was walking down the road and accidentally kicked a rock, that is karma. Do not add to this example. This is a simple example of cause and effect. How is this spiritual?

"nyrlathotep, all you have done is renamed cause and effect as karma. They are not the same. An example of karma would be a man who refuses to give to the poor for selfish needs and then becomes bankrupt. Cause and effect would be if a boy kicked a ball and the ball rolled in effect. Karma assumes that a divine being is making judgment on our actions. I don't see judgment in any way,if a ball rolled because I kicked it."

I am sorry for not replying to your post sooner hedge hog. I Believe some one on this thread has pointed out that the concept of karma has many different meanings depending on what form of Karma recognition you are refering to.

The Philosophy of karma with in hinduism Is a bit confusing and has changed forms often. Most Hindus believe that there is one ultimate God called Brahmin Who is according to their beliefs literaraly everything. Because Brahmin is every thing Brahmin is subject to the laws of Karma.

The bhudists believe that the question of God Is irrelavent and that it's (gods) existance is unlikely Bhuda once suggested that beliefe in God was like arriving to the scene and finding your house on fire. At that moment you have to realise your house is on fire you have a condition that needs to be fixed and who lit the match or what colour the culprits hair was is not important.

I would like to give you the four laws of karma according to the tradition of tibet and other branches of bhudism. some of the laws of karma have already been expressed by others in this post but I feel it is important for you to know were these points are comming from so we can carry on our discussion.


1. Results are similar to the cause. Simply said, when I cause other people harm, I will harvest suffering myself. It is important to note here, that "positive" actions are defined as actions that have happiness as a result; "negative" actions are defined as actions that lead to suffering as a result.

2. No results without a cause. As is obvious within science, things do not just appear out of nothing

3. Once an action is done, the result is never lost. Similarly as above, things do not just disappear into nothing.


4. Karma expands. Once we have an imprint of an action in our mind, it tends to be habit-forming. As is often said in wars for example, killing the first enemy is tough, but after a handful, one quickly loses count and it becomes "normal". Also psychology often stresses a similar point when e.g. explaining actions of adults from their childhood experiences.

(here is a link to the web page that I have used as a good online source for some of my studdys in bhudism

If you read through these you will see that cause and effect are the basis for these laws of karma. with out the laws of cause and effect none of the other laws could exist. IF you studdy these four laws It is very difficult to dispute them. When i first read these laws I was a devout christian and afraid of other points of views that may lead me astray. but when I read these Four points I could find no substancial arguement against them. maby you can find the flaws in the logic used. I my self am not trying to insult you I just think it is important for this conversation that you at least learn what it is that most practitionars of karmic law believe.

I know what karma is. That is not what I asked you to explain to me. How is the example of the rock an example of karma, because according to you, cause and effect is karma?

you may have missed it but i mentioned that if you look carefully at the four laws of karma that you will see that cause and effect is the quintessential point of karma. the three other laws could not exist. try to tell me how cause and effect is not the most important point of each of the laws. I was confused when you spoke of a devine being using karma as a tool of judgement I wasnt sure whether you were speaking of the hindu concept of karma or the Bhudist concept of karma. here is what i hope is an adequet example of how the rock and the boy kicking it are both subject to karma. Because time and space are infinite it is very probable that that rock or a piece of that rock was once part of a being. The being has no center thus the rock is subject even the law of concious thought and actions. The bhudists do not recognise a soul so the self is based of all the molecules and electricity bones shit tissue and fat with in the human body are as subject to the laws of karma as the conciousness of the individuall So its actions have lead it to were it is. Conciousness and what defines conciousness should perhaps be saved for another debate maby if the powers that be alow it i will start a thread on the question of conciousness or i will join one that all ready exists

"Because time and space are infinite it is very probable that that rock or a piece of that rock was once part of a being."


That is not cause and effect. It is actually now a story. But that's besides the point. You have finally answered my question of how this example is karma and how you explained this is that a piece of the rock was once a person. Do you realize the absurdity of what you just said? Human beings have only been in existence for no longer than 400,000 years and it takes millions of years for rocks to form. At this point in this conversation I believe that you are doing nothing more than talking out of your ass.

I am completely finished with you you obviously havent read my points. you have made no real counter points. I am explaining in circles here and you arent getting it. Good luck with your future debates