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Did I state anything against commenting negatively? Show me
You said nothing, against, in terms of telling people not too, but that was not the point I made.
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Don't be discouraged by the negative comments made by the others on this page about your entry
Is what you said, and to unfortunately have to repeat myself, as well as repeating you, your comment was devoid of addressing those perceived negative comments, or even explaining how they are perceived as negative to you, not that you are required to, but because of this lacking information your post was virtually meaningless and intended to do nothing but coddle a little girl while passing unexplained judgement on posts in disagreement with religious aspects of the original post.
This is quite relevant due to the fact that multiple people, including myself, find our religiously argumentitive perspectives both positive and enlightening, even if not expressed with kid gloves, when addressing religious indoctrination of young children, which was the instigation for such passionate responses against a post that obviously wasn't intending to create such a debate.
But you would know this if you had read the thread and understood it properly.
Does this matter to a degree that no clarifications and progressions towards unified understanding can be permitted, absolutely not, as far as I'm concerned, but that would be a two way street.
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You chose to take something small and simple I wrote and try and twist it to say something I never said, implied or intended
I did nothing of the sort. And I already explained part of why you would even think such a thing, another part is about to be addressed.
Here, let me show and compare.
This is an asserted assumption...
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you chose to take it that way and make it so personal
It is personal and definitive.
This is not...
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if you are accusing someone....
someone could interpret my words as you did....
whomever would follow such logic...
These are generalized and speculative, allowing for possibilities outside of themself.
I even made sure to pre-emtively address this entire point and matter when I said...
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Hopefully you don't fall completely in this category as your assumptions and assertions would suggest.
I even double covered this point extra super pre-emptively when I said that I was making these points...
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Regardless of your personal positions, interpretations, and intentions I might add.
Again, I can easily see some
possible reasons as to why such missunderstandings could occur.
One of which comes from a forum such as this if you aren't familiar with them, which I do not know to be the case one way or another.
However, the transition between making direct comments to someone and generalized ones addressing concepts within posts whether intended or not by the person earlier addressed or anyone else who has posted is quite common and only natural in a debate format that does not occur in real time where responses, information, and clarifications come in a timely manner.
And something you have already alluded to holding some understanding of is that people follow recognisable trends and thought patterns based on what information they have been exposed to and the positions they choose to take and express.
So when people come in and start dropping scriptures, untill they clarify their personal posistion on the religious matter they should not be surprised if they get responses about or treated like people who drop scriptures, and often turn out to be fundamentalist asshats.
However, you would be correct to find dissagreement with anyone who labels you or your intentions with asserted assumptions of such posistions without your having declared such a thing yourself, which is why I made sure not to by indeed addressing those posistions and allowing for both the possibility that you may or may not feel that way.
Hopefully you get where I'm coming from as I'm quite certain this would alleviate a great deal of confusion and missunderstanding.
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As for the scripture I used, if you don't like it, then your problem is not with me, I didn't write it
I may indeed have some quibbles with the scripture, I really don't know, but that wasn't what I was talking about, it was you and your use of it as well as your possible intentions purposes behind posting it, it was YOU who posted it, yes?
You don't get to hide behind such a lame out of context attempt at an excuse I'm afraid.
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two small scriptures don't make a Bible study
This is concerning, it seems context is something that eludes many who venture through these forums.
But it often tends to explain itself through emotionally clouded minds lacking attention to detail and deciding for themselves what someone means and intends, often because they have reacted to something they feel attacks a belief of theirs, rather than acutally finding out for sure.
Oh, but that would be repeating myself again, none the less, to clarify something, I was referencing bible study through a description of a belief and thought pattern generally found in bible study, aka indoctrination class.
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'the majority of posts are in argument 'against religious and biblical matters' presented in the original post.' Ah that's why I added the first scripture I did
No shit, and the response I made to it was directly in reference to the mischaracterization of what an argument is and what people's intentions were for making the argument.
I happen to find indoctrination, particularly of young impressionable minds, into cults as abusive and "speaking evil".
Whereas I find adressing it, even if heatedly and bordering on abuse in somes' perceptions, as anything but.
Your proclamation of others haven spoken evil of someone for being in dissagreement with their posistions does not make it so.
And since you are making indirect judgemental reference to posters and their intentions and blatantly dismissing them and labeling them as negative, you should not be surprised to get what should be an obvious rebuttal by those you are defaming and mischaracterizing.
By the way,
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(for your information the correct translation of the word evil would be 'abuse verbally')
I had never heard that before and I thank you for the interesting information.
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'Freeing the Mind', as you put it.
Who says its held captive?
Well whose it are we talking about and what are the details and I'll attempt to answer that question.
But in the context of addressing the general point of indoctrination, as I was, both intentional and not, I would say that "I say" that many minds and even societies under the influence of religion are indeed held captive.
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Does that mean if we don't all agree with you on ever viewpoint of yours or think like you then there is something wrong with us?
Absolutely not, but I do allow for the possibility.
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Your vain ramblings and babbling does not impress me.
Odd, they seem to have made enough of an
impression for you to make that statement as well as this lengthy response....
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or you just used it as an opportunity for a little self glorification
No, but you were closer earlier when remarking on me being a drama queen about points you have yet to address and I cannot assume you understand at this point.
This is in reference to the larger concepts I was responding to brought up by your posts, again, regardless of your actual intentions that I could not know as you had not expressed them, and for the most part, still have not.
But none the less, you still managed to assume and assert that they were directly about you.
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For the most part I have found that people who do not believe in God have a problem with those who do. As a result, those that choose not to believe in God tend to, as it is written, 'speak evil' of those who do, you know as you have done with me.
See how you appear to...
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take it that way and make it so personal
And are you making assumptions about my belief in God now too?
:CLARIFICATION ALERT: This was a question, not an assertion. Sorry, but it would appear as if some warnings are warranted.
And there is such irony in your attempted point that is apparently again misguided by assumptions.
But my noticing this irony helped me to formulate a better, though still partial, answer to an earlier question of yours.
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it seems to me that you may have had some bad childhood experiences with church and religion. Is that so?
Indeed, the biggest being persecution by those who feared my questions about their beliefs, be it in passive aggressive or outright vicious attacks for daring to question the word,or any other aspect, of god, jesus, and or the bible or anyone who proclaims them as truth and righteousnous in the chosen belief and blind faith in it.
You see, you may be familiar with people speaking evil of those who believe in god, but how often is it from someone who had evil spoken of them for questioning god in any way shape or form?
I have a feeling you are quite familiar with this point, if I've properly assessed the meaning of your attempts study and clarify the bible after having...
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use[d] to comment against Christians in the same manner you have towards me
Of course the last part just being your ego still getting the better of you.
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I have spent the last 15 years in study of the Bible and different dominations
Interesting Freudian slip sir. And I'm sorry for your loss.
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I do write this to help you, if its possible, to understand where I'm coming from. I, like you use to comment against Christians in the same manner you have towards me. If you think I don't understand your feelings against Christianity, let me reinsure you that I do all to well. I, like you, thought that all Christians were confused and used the Bible as a crutch to explain away all the things in life they did not understand.
First, let me say I appreciate any attempt to help educate me on such matters as well as appreciate all personal insight from someone who has travelled similar roads as I find all people's unique perspectives of value.
But do not assume to fully relate as these are indeed unique perspectives we speak of due to only we having lived our own individual lives and their cumulative experiences to form these perspectives, regardless of relatable subject matters and even similar opinions.
I will say that my feelings on the crutch issue are not equatable primarily due to the qualifying aspects of the word "all" that you used.
Because certainly you would not deny that many people do just that. But to claim all do would indeed be silly.
But I find encouragement in your potential understanding of my posistions regardless of any degrees of separation.
And I do not presume that your thoughts on that matter are limited to the narrowed expression of it found in those words.
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When you can surrender your preconceived ideas and spend at least 3 years in continuous Bible study then maybe I might entertain something you have to say concerning Bible matters
Exactly what preconceived ideas do I hold again?
Whatever they are, I can assure you, I hold no tight grip to notions presented to me by others, hence some of my apprehensions towards religion.
As for your qualifications on bible study, if a self proclaimed "professional" can't have two way conversations with a "layman", regardless of understandable frustrastions, then I'm afraid it be you who will become lost
And if that were true and you were to consider yourself any type of teacher, then you truly would be lost and would drag down anyone stupid enough to follow.
Don't you realise that most revelations come from outside of a focused field of study by mixing thoughts and perspectives.
Because once you hone in like that you start to lose sight of the big picture and how these things interrelate.
If you cut out the rest of the factors that afftect the subject matter, which all things affect all things, then you lose the plot altogether.
How many scientific breakthroughs are accidents, how many professionals witness a child speak an obvious truth that has somehow elluded them utterly altering their entire perception of reality?
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I find it interesting that all of the things you accuse me of, you did to me, like when you wrote;
'...projecting their own emotions and desired beliefs on others and trying desperately to validate their proposed view of reality to avoid ever having to face the truth of the lies they build their delusional world upon.'
Do you mean like you did to me?
I find it interesting how much you repeat yourself in defense of yourself when I spoke not of your personal self, unless your personal beliefs and actions were indeed included in my generalization of course, but that would be for you to tell me because I still do not know your personal beliefs and do not presume to, regardless of any natural speculation I entertain in hopes of gaining clarification, something you have yet to be too cooperative in addressing.
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Anywhere one finds people you'll find problems, they go hand in hand. The 'Organized Churches' are not head and shoulders above the world in this.
Indeed, and indeed organized churches are not.
The point is that they are in general tools of indoctrination over education, though plenty try not to be and some succeed, and given their heirarchycal setup and their perpensity for corruption like so many bodies of power they have to be re-evaluated and likely restructured.
Ultimately I understand this to be a problem of lacking intelligence, or more likely accurate, a lacking use of intelligence, personal honesty, and personal responsibility on the part of the followers, with great exception for the children, which all of the followers once were, hence the very real and very dangerous, again, regardless of of intention to do so, indoctrination factor that I cannot stress enough.
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You come off as some 'how dare someone disagree with you or think differently then you' attitude.
True, to someone who doesn't understand me and instead tries to create their own understanding based off what they can relate to.
(Hence inevitable projecting which I at first did not attribute to you directly, but that you later took claim of by yourself when attempting to accuse me of it. I had merely laid out what many religious people do because you did something similar, and then you did it. The difference between our two cases and the reason why yours was projection and mine was not, is because mine were generalized EXPRESSIONS of personal perspectives to which I took total ownership of and yours were directly aimed personal emotional reactionary responses to my expressions, based on preconceived notions I might add. What you may not know is, I do this on purpose to see who takes personal offense to generalized statements by strangers because that is the first thing that needs to be addressed in order to have constructive mutual learning experiences on the annonymous internet. You would likely be amazed at how many people take personal offense to comments made by people they do not know personally. Its a variant on the definition of insanity, if it persists, well, then it is the definition.)
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Who the hell are you that you think so highly of yourself?
Who says I do? Oh wait, that's right, you. Project much?
Do you struggle with your ego to this degree? Is this the true reason you feel the need to over educate yourself on fables and matters of faith and interpretation, to hold your "knowledge" over the heads of those who so desperately seek to be lead rather than to educate themselves and take actual personal responsibility for themselves?
I know there is an irony in that so many religious people actually do take more personal responsibility to the point of taking action in life over idleness, but it is the fact that their works and minds are manipulated by the guide they put so much faith in to figure out the greater good for them that they cannot properly take responsibility for, or properly perceive to avoid outcomes that are anything but holy, just, sensible, or a greater good.
When you consign yourself to subservience to a plan you don't try to understand, you become its tool, and it disgusts me to see how proudly some flaunt this fact in a way that shows so blatantly that they do not understand that it is this that allows corruption.
Taking responsibility for one's own actions and good intentions and efforts or works toward the construction of a plan that is inherently meant to control, manipulate, and enslave does not change the fact that one is guilty of aiding the plan and its results.
And its much like taking responsibility for allowing organized corruption in a way.
So is the way of blind faith, the herd will faithfully follow the shepard over the cliff and then blame satan or some such thing for their misleading while still patting themselves on the back for their strength in the unwavering faith.
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Have you done some great good for man kind?
Absolutely, I woke up, and refused to be put back to sleep while continuing to help try to wake others.
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Have you invented some new vaccine that will cure the world of some terrible disease?
I did not invent truth, but I do seek it and try to pass around my findings for conversational purposes meant to instigate mutual learning sessions to get people off the lies they're addicted to to the point of disease in pandemic proportions.
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Do the leaders of the world come to you for advice on how to solve their difficult problems?
Of course not, because I am their problem, for I will not stand for their corruption and abuse of posistions of authority and power.
Though they did think me fitting for the field of military intelligence during my stay in the armed forces, apparently for my ability to take diffuse and seemingly unconnected or even contradictory information or even that which is completely invisible to general masses and find the patterns to break the codes that hide the true intentions of messages that intelligent people thought were intentional misdirection intended to hide something, and what self labotimized sheeple held as sacred truth and worshipped, not even worshipping the truth of course, but worshipping themselves for thinking the held the truth.
But that is really irrelevant given the context of the conversation, right?....
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Maybe you should try taking off your training wheels as you said.
I can't take off your training wheels sir, that is your job.
Mine have been off for some time but poor lost indoctrinated nut jobs keep trying to put them back on. Not meaning you, I hope.
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You say you have 52 months of explanation behind you, explanation of what?
Really? You do know that was an answer to a question of yours, a what that you presented, yes? Why I'm "down on" religion... ring a bell?
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Why your so consumed by self
This only happens when I don't eat enough...wait, think it over first, it might even be funny.
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I'd love to see them.
http://www.captaincynic.com/userthreads/29597/ironwood.htm quote:
To see what makes you think your opinion is the only one that maters and is the only one that's valid in your eyes.
I can tell you that if that is what you are looking for, you won't find it unless you create it yourself.
But if you are simply seeking innaccuracies in data or human foibles, you will find plenty to pick at I'm sure, most I have hopefully learned from, but if you find any more in need of refinement, you know where to find me.
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Finally, as for you picture you chose to put over your user name, I'd say it fitting for you.
I thought so too, so much rich symbolism, so many things being said at once, so jovial yet so deep and meaningful, though often coming across as crude to those who deny nature in place of self loathing traditions and "beliefs". I'm glad we have come to see eye to eye on things.
Now I must take a moment to ask again some questions as I truly do wish to pick your brain and utilize your education.
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Can you clarify something, you seem to be fairly familiar with the bible, were angels given free will?
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And do you agree or disagree with the notion that god already knows the outcome of these little games he plays to teach us things that he could very well just make us understand?
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Could disprove that naturalman is the abrahamic god?
Perhaps in another thread, I would also like to hear your definition of god and your rationalization of any personally held beliefs of god, religion, etc. Including periods of different beliefs and resulting revelations, like those you alluded to earlier.
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47yrs • M
