Cellphone VS Bible - Page 2

I think if you look around Shadrach you might find that we on this forum put little or no value on age. Ignorance is ignorance and when dealt with at a young age allows an individual to do more with their lives. Especially when they truly understand what they think not what their brain washed sunday school teacher told them.

As for the intention, intention holds no value in reality only cause and effect, a man hit by a bullet on accident or on propose makes no difference the man is still dead. 13 or not she still posted it.

You're right, it doesn't make a difference how old she is, what matters is that she posted it. And any person experienced with this website knows that any post expressing your belief in a god is punishable by death from most of you people.

Several of you have spoken to the idea of Christians always pushing their beliefs onto others. And how disrespectful it is that they can't just accept that you don't believe in God. Well how can you consider yourselves any more respectful than them?

I have read through ever post on this thread and I have seen several different people call Christians ignorant, mentally retarded, idiots, stupid, and insane among other things. How is that being respectful? If you're so appalled by people being disrespectful then why don't you tell them in a civilized, respectful manner?

Treating someone like crap isn't going to make them change their beliefs, or change the way that they treat you. It'll make them feel like crap. And odds are they'll just treat you worse.

If you don't believe in God then go for it, and preach about why you don't think religion is a reasonable concept. But be respectful in doing so.

If anything you guys have committed one hell of a moral crime here by insulting a young teen who was merely looking to share something she found. You haven't accepted that she might believe in something else, which is what you want the faithful to accept of yourselves.

How you justify doing what you apparently hate is beyond me. When I joined this site I thought i would find interesting conversation, i thought I would find a connection to some of the great minds of our day, but I feel I was sadly mistaken. If you don't have the capacity to respect others as you want them to respect you, how can you truly say that you have the capacity to delve into the world of philosophical debate which for centuries has been focused on justice, and morality; right from wrong.

I am disappointed. And while I have a feeling it will never happen, things need to change here.

fireangel

Poor judgment/decisions should be disrespected. The OP demonstrates blind faith, which is synonymous with poor judgment. The earlier a person learns this, the better. However, there is some harsh "teaching" and a lack of empathy toward the OPs naivety.

Sometimes people on this site make me so mad. A thirteen year old girl does not have the same understanding of the world as someone in their twenties or thirties or more and if you were sitting in front of this little girl instead of behind your computer screen or if she was your daughter you might behave a little better.

We are all existentialists in our own little lives trying to make sense of the world around us. Someone once said I think it was a man called Husserl that all consciousness is inclusive of all experiences, unrestricted by any single viewpoint on normality. And he asked what does the voice of God mean to any one individual in that individual's world?

Just because your understanding of something whether it is God, Christianity or a scientific principle is one thing, it doesn't make the other person's understanding any less valid. Who are you to judge another man's mind?

The biblical quote

"Friend, let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye' when you can't see the log in your own eye' Hypocrite! First get rid of the log from your own eye; then you will see well enogh to deal with the speck in your friend's eye.'

comes to mind.

In other words, it is so easy to be judgemental on this site and that little girl is going to go away with an impression of the people who talk on this site and it may colour her view of people for the rest of her life.

Debate is healthy and so is constructive criticism, but how do you balance that with the humanity of civilised tolerance of others' more fundemental spiritual and existential views about the world around them without looking like a complete intolerant freak?

And just for the record, I really liked the original post by the said thirteen year old.

I remember a post that dates back to july of this year in which we talked about the appropriate age to educate children on different subject matters. We never reached any form of consensus on many things but I did learn a lot from it.

I was really into the thread so I asked a couple of people I knew that worked in child development, and a physiologist who told me that children develop true consciousness around age six. I at the time was working with children age 3-12 and what they told me seemed to fit in extremely well with what i observed in these children.

On to the issue

This girl is 7 years past when she should have started to question things of this nature. I feel no sympathy towards her. I wish I was presented the same opportunity that she just was at her age.

What she did is something that was clearly drawn a forwarded e-mail, paper given to her by a sunday school teach or something of the nature. The point is that she was given it by someone much older then her in an attempt to limit her ability to question what things actually exist outside the bible.

I responded with an extreme level of harshness because I am not in this post fighting her. I am fighting the extreme ideals that have been pushed upon young individuals (like herself) for their entire lives.

And

fireangle I justify this "hatred" by knowing that blind faith and faith are two different things. A lot of people who were raised in christian families, who choose not to live their lives by someone else's accord still believe in god but not in all the teachings of the bible. On the same key I do understand that they're practicing christians who do think for themselves and I have very littlet true woe with them.

The issue I have has nothing to do with her beliefs but how as an individual I can't sit back and let someone live their life governed by someone elses principles.

On the innaccurate accusations of hypocritical disrespect and unjustified harshness, I say you are wrong.

What you fail to understand is that Christianity is inherently disrespectful and harsh.

It is fundamentally exclusivist and condemning to those ignorant or in dissagreement with its proclamations and practices.

The bible itself, which is the initial topic of discussion, literally instructs its members to do physical harm to those who meet certain self defined criteria, usually based on prejudice and self defined morals.

Not to mention its legacy as the how to guide to mass oppression of women, dissent, common sense, free will, etc.

Yes, many Christians try to live in denial of these aspects as they cling to their traditions because of the "good that religion brings".

Which is complete malarky because the good found in religion is neither created by nor a symptom of anything to do with the bible or religion, this good comes from the people in the religion who simply strive to be good people, a concept completely independent of and able to be practiced without any holy book or religious belief which always end up causing division and chaos in their attempt to force a tyrannical and intolerant order.

You want to talk about hypocricy in respect to undeveloped minds who don't know the world as we do, what the fuck do you have to say about a religion that literally and in all seriousness actually has adults threaten children with the promise of eternal torturous pain and sufferring by demons and devils that are always watching if they do not live by the guidelines of a fucking cult.

You see, simply because you choose not to associate yourselves with, perhaps live in patent denial of, or are even simply ignorant of all the negative aspects of any given organized religions (and their teachings, traditions, and practices) that you decide to so proudly claim and flaunt affiliation with does not mean you get to exempt yourselves from criticism and even strong negative emotional responses to throwing such labels, language, and symbolism around.

Do you think that because someone only sees the good side of Nazis that when they decide to put on a Nazi uniform and go for a stroll that they won't likely be offensive enough to somebody to push them to react in an emotional outburst?

The original post is cute, to someone who is a fan of the bible, to someone offended by it, it is actually a quite contemptuous post begging for rebuke.

Had the post been about the satanic bible, not only would your repsonses likely be very different, you probably wouldn't have had the balls to speak your mind in the first place.

And the continually reiterated point I try to make in these arguments is that instead of bringing love and god to the world through religion you actually bring the opposite, you are causing division by choosing to be part of a exclusivist group and you need to understand that.

If it weren't for the fact that all the good found in religion can be created and shared without it, better even given the lack of boundaries that restrict who is worthy of universal love (aka god's love) for any number of superstitious, prejudice, inbred, nefarious, good will gone awry, etc, reason.

Then yes I would feel differently, but alas, it is not so.

The problem is that the underlying goal of all religion is personal redemption. Its charity masked in greed.

Instead of just being good people because its the better way to live people rely on religions who are then given control of the defintion of, and ability to mandate what, a good person is and does thereby leaving the followers controlled and open to manipulation, including discrimination against non followers and ignorance or denial of it.

You get sold a scheme of man made manipulation as a means to the holy land, instant false idolotry, and the rest is a lie masking a truth far more interesting.

For the record, I hold no ill will for anyone here, to briefly explain some of my manners for clarification, my dad beat me my momma touched me and so sometimes I talk funny, I got over it and so can you.

Plus, I was a Sailor.

But ultimately I know words won't hurt you and I prefer not to censor raw emotion when it comes, I find it a source of inspiration, my, even look at some of the response it helped illicit.

And though I don't think anyones words or intentions are ultimately harmful unless you allow them to be I do find Christianity and religion to be and feel it important enough to address.

Because people are still deciding whether to allow or stop wars based on words by leaders speaking of evil and directives from god, and chosen people and lands, etc.

People are actually teaching their children to hate and fear people who believe different on some level or another whether that is the intention or not of the teacher, its in the teachings and the structure, it is fundamental to all organized religion based on exclusivist principles and that it why it matters enough to get upset.

I don't take global indoctrination of structures not seen or understood by the masses but which can still blatantly manipulate them to extremism in one form or another lightly.

Especially when it has become cliche how my the handful of major factions war against eachother since between the top say three mainstream religions you have a rediculous percentage of the world population ifluenced and controlled to one degree or another in ways so powerful they can turn people on eachother from their very core and spread it generationally like a virus.

I find it disgusting and dangerous, worthy of the attention and "harshness" it recieved. Sorry to rob a kid of needless cutesy talk.

Oh, and something to chew on, just because Christians, and religious people in general, get the luxury of insulting people with a smile on their face doesn't mean their not insulting.

"Do you have Jesus in your heart and believe him to be the one true savior?", "No?", "Well then unless you change that I guess you will just die an evil sinner and burn in hell for all eternity with no chance at redemption ............ever, toodles."

And if you translate that into my rant speak, it equals "Go Fuck Yourself", leaving me feeling only fairly equal ground justified for just such retort.

And no, I don't hold these feelings about the posters themselves, but to Christianity and religion and the choices of the followers. I speak to many and so my meanings are broad and general to points, not people, unless we are discussing such details of course.

I don't explain in apology but in amusement that when my mind vomits thoughts out onto this screen I'm able to vomit it onto yours too.

wow - what an angry post! Are you really comparing Christians to Nazis?

Have you really actually read the bible, really or are you just completely against organised religion in any form what so ever because the hundreds of thousands of people practisinng these religions are so obviously ignorant and (brainwashed) into believing that it is healthy to live a happy, productive life, helping other people, doing good anyway they can and loving others as they would hopefully love themselves, especially their enemies?

All these people (a huge percentage of the planet) are of course wrong and you are right because they can't think for themselves. They haven't got an intelligent brain between them have they? Because they can't possibly really believe that their spiritual essence in the form of a soul is going to live on after their physical body is dead.

I mean does it really make you that angry that someone other than yourself can read the bible or another religious text and be emotionally so moved that they feel they have to change their habits and start to lead their life in a different way that means they may be healthier, happier and have more tolerance of other people regardless of what they might believe?

I don't even think it is about living a religious life to the letter. There are plenty of people who call themselves Christians or Jews or Muslims or Buddhists who are intelligent enough to realise that the religious texts that founded their religions are not all encompassing recipes to redemption but have to be regarded as philosophical ideals written in a certain time period that is not to be taken literally in todays contextual societies and the fanatics who do follow these texts to the letter are very few and far between.

If children are going to read the bible for ten minutes a day or go to church once a week and learn that it is a good thing to help an elderly neighbour or chat to a lonely child in the playground or unplug from the tv once in a while and go to the beach and feel the power of creation all around them and really start to feel they have a spiritual essence as well as a physical one then I say bring it on.

read the bible or the torah or the I Ching or whatever ancient philosophical texts you can get your hands on and start to realise there is more to life than the tv or pc or x-box or mobile phone or shopping.

I for one applaud the original post in encouraging children to become more spiritually aware and I think it is very sad that a grown man can show such anger towards another human being's right to express their religious views. ok so you don't share them. Fine agree to differ. You don't have to be so angry about it.

I believe you can be christ like without reading the bible and vice versa. I'v never bothered to read the bible because it looks too boring, I'v only seen things on tv about it. But what about the first person who started the bible how did they know they were a christian. I think there's a difference bettween a christian and a follower of the bible.

Sorceress you mistake a hatred for organized religion as a hatred for spirituality. Religion is the beliefs and values you live your life by. Spirituality is simply what ever you want it to be god, gods, ghosts, higher beings, spirits, aliens, red tube. Really it makes no difference spirituality is what you think happens to the human soul while we are in existence that being before, during and after the life that we are living right now. From what I gather you think that children developing some knowledge of something greater then them is religion. Connect the dots (its not).

Organized religion's goal to control your actions and thoughts. What you speak of giving back, helping people, learning good morals. I did all with out the help of someone telling me to do so. Anyone can do them without having someone tell them to. This is a result of a positive environment to learn in where people gave to you not religion. Although religion does tend to try and take credit for positive childhood experiences, it was not the religion that did it, it was simply the people.

If you honestly believe that your child has to be scared into an entirety in hell in order to help a blind man cross the street, then that makes you a shitty parent not an excuse to take you child to church and have them scared to compensate for what you could not do.

People fall into the trap of religion all around the world because bad people realize then can manipulated people with good intentions with it. That doesn't make it a good thing and if you did some research into these smart people you make reference to, you'll find that most famous people in history didn't give a damn what their spiritual leader said, mostly because they were smart enough not to be manipulated.

Lastly, I don't think Iron made one reference to how smart people didn't fall into it. You were the one who assumed something that was not there (who's really angry here?)

I still can't understand how you can separate spirituality and religion. A person's religion is the way they experience spirituality. As for my children being scared into an eternity of hell. What?? My children love church. They ask to go to church because their friends are there, they have a great time surrounded by people who show nothing but love and affection towards them. They love to sing and praise God and spend time doing interesting and fun activities. They do charitable works (because they want to not because they are scared in any way shape or form of hell.) In fact the only time I go to church is when my children want to go (otherwise I would be happy to stay in bed!) I enjoy the conversation and am quite happy to debate anything in the bible that I don't agree with or I feel is out of touch with modern day life. I agree that some Christians can become fanatical but I for one know a great many Christians who are perfectly nice, ordinary people - and I certainly don't know any who treat their children in the way you describe. My kids are everything to me. I'm a childminder and children always come first in my house. I also have a buddhist friend who is a fantastic mother and many friends who are other religions or no religion. They are all great people and some have thoughts about spirituality and some don't. I just think you cannot go around accusing people of being bad parents or bad people in general because they are religious. I don't go around accusing people of being bad parents or bad people because they are not religious. People are people - everyone has different life experiences and different views. If they are leading good lives and not going around being antisocial suerely we should all respect each other's life choices.

I can't understand anyone who becomes so angry about things whether for or against religions. Anger is so distructive and so is intolerance - that is what breeds war not religion. It is people who are so tunnel visioned that if another person doesn't come round to their way of thinking they start to see red and lose all control - I see it all the time in toddlers who don't get their own way, they stamp their feet and lay down on the floor and kick and scream until the parent says oh ok anything for a quiet life. Well not me. I just take a deep breath let the tantrum finish and then say, feel better now? What made you so angry? Learn to share, learn to get on or you will never have friends. Adults are no different!

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A thirteen year old girl does not have the same understanding of the world as someone in their twenties or thirties or more and if you were sitting in front of this little girl instead of behind your computer screen or if she was your daughter you might behave a little better.

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The poster isn't the target of any response, the post, its content, and or perceived intent is.

And there is an open community that exists that all post and responses are intended for unless it is explicitly direct and personal rather than a specific or generalized response to a specific or generalized concept in debate. Therefore they are not generally catered to any gender or age, even that of the poster.

Which you can't know who or what that is behind that proclaimed persona anyway, it could be a 50 year FBI agent or just a messed up little girl who would stab you in the face just as quick as look at you.

And if it is a sweet little girl and anyone here has offended her, then she probably shouldn't visit this site as it contains explicit content and is catered for adults and anyone legally permitted to participate.

There have been twelve year olds on this site that would eat you alive sorceress.

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We are all existentialists in our own little lives trying to make sense of the world around us. Someone once said I think it was a man called Husserl that all consciousness is inclusive of all experiences, unrestricted by any single viewpoint on normality.

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But organized religion is not, it is a set and regulated and in many cases enforced or even made law.

As you stated later ...

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I still can't understand how you can separate spirituality and religion

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And this is one big reason why it would appear you can't properly understand the general argument presented.

Because you have to in order to get it.

What you are likely misunderstanding is that no one has claimed that organized religion isn't a system designed to focus on spirituality.

And the spirituality isn't the problem, that's actually one of the biggest reasons I argue against organized realigion because I believe it taints and stunts spirituality, as well as information and judgement and general human potential.

Organized religion does not create or own the concept of spirituality, it regulates it. Organized religion is spritiual tunnel vision as it has rules and directives, judgements, and even systems of punishment.

You have heard of excommunication, sacrifice, and execution by various religious laws correct?

Have you specifically asked your church leaders if you qualify for redemption or eternal hell? I'm actually curious.

Organized religion is not spiritual just as it is not philisophical or traditional, it is a structure which incorporates but controls and regulates philosophy, spirituality, thought, belief, information, and even action.

So again, no claim has been made of organized religion lacking spirituality in case that is what is hanging you up on the concept of the seperation.

Because you don't think you have to have organized religion to be spiritual do you?

That right there is all the seperation you really need to understand.

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Just because your understanding of something whether it is God, Christianity or a scientific principle is one thing, it doesn't make the other person's understanding any less valid.

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Its not my understanding that is in question, it is the understanding expected and written by an organized religion, get it straight.

And if you're view differs on the right subject, the churches tend to be pretty clear about whether that validates your understanding or even your status as a practicing member.

Regardless of your acceptance and tolerance of a religion, it can still kick you out.

It would seem you also do not understand the alluded to fact that organized religion is not personal religion, it is a governmental structure meant to enforce the rules of a predetermined belief system that you give up your personal freedom to choose to "believe".

Yet another lost concept to many missing the point of the common argument is that fundamental Christianity, is Chritianity, as with all religions respectively.

Anything else is actually something else all together, the problem is "followers" are too stuck on follow to understand the difference, or what I'm saying when I try to help to differrentiate the two, I'm not singling anyone out on that either, there are plenty of logged arguments about this, hopefully now or in the future it will be properly articulated as to show that we generally aren't having the same argument.

The underlying misconception is that this is an argument of blind hate and intolerance on the part of such participants as myself rather than one of frustration due to an admitted lack of understanding.

It is this misconception and your personal standards that turn the argument into what it is not, personal, if you want to make it personal that is your business, but don't make the mistake of confusing other people's responses as personal as opposed to generalized responses to generalized concepts as expressed by words in posts.

What offends you is your business but you are welcome to share, just like us.

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Who are you to judge another man's mind?

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Just to reiterate, I'm not, I'm pointing out that organized religions ARE and they are influencing masses of people to do the same, as is their sole purpose of design.

I'm not judging the mind but the machine the mind is given to.

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In other words, it is so easy to be judgemental on this site and that little girl is going to go away with an impression of the people who talk on this site and it may colour her view of people for the rest of her life.

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I should hope so, we try to break through those restrictive barriers that keep people's minds closed and ignorant to reality.

Nothing was said here that could harm a person unless they were trained to be harmed by it, their reactive feelings are their own issue as they are generally related to insecurities created by past incidents by people they do know and care about who have hurt them, or sheer irrationality.

Any personal emotional reaction to a post by someone who does not know you personally is all you, and borders on insanity if contiued.

As for anyone's judgements of the site or people, any regulation can be handled by admin, otherwise you're stuck having deal with the fact that you can't please everyone all the time.

And any "angry" post wasn't even in response to the little girl but to another grown man, according to the info provided, another out of context argument that is clouding your ability to properly understand where some of us are coming from.

The same is the case with arguments against Christianity and organized religion.

We are arguing against something you claim not to practice yet you wanna jump in and get all huffy while not actually address the point.

That's not cool man.

At least I can get emotional in context.

Oh well, I'm gonna go ahead and post this one if I can this time, damn computer/gremlin.

They have all been long winded and cut off, some I deleted out of a new and hopefully short lived tradition, attempt 5.1? or so I'll just let fly before lightning strikes. You can thank whomever for sparing you the diatribe

Peace

Kisses, doh, oh fooey, hey Decius, where's the smoochey smiley, oh well, this will have to do,







Decius, I'll be thuroughly dissappointed in your lack of respect for the precious twelve and thirty five year old female christian crowd if you don't delete or edit in fluffy kittens into our posts.

I'm serious, I have friends.

Ironwood does have a point Sorceress, very few of us here have any objection to spirituality, we will respect whatever beliefs you hold, as long as you have good reason for holding them. For most of us though "this priest/rabbi/imam/etc says ....." doesn't qualify as sound reasoning. According to your posts you go to church for the coffee morning afterwards not for the religious content of the sermon, even saying that you disagree with some of the defined christian message. As for your kids enjoying it, of course they do, it's a fun play scheme with other kids their age, they are paying no conscious attention to what is being said, but subconsciously they are building a nice mental barrier to logical thought on some issues, rather than just the general social morality presented at a secular playgroup. Our original poster has helpfully displayed this, somebody has handed her a set of an analogies that are truly moronic and she has lapped them up and come onto the internet to pass them on. Is it cute? No it's depressing, a kid doesn't think about what she is repeating in the slightest, and the adult who wrote it is blatantly gong for brainwashing. It's depressing.

Organised religion provides you with a holy text to reference and then proceeds to tell you how to interpret said text. Spirituality is your own interpretation of how things are based on your experiences, or even your own interpretation of such a text. If your own personal beliefs are logically defined from your own experience then fine, we have no argument, you can even evangelise as long as it's done logically. And to whoever it was who passed some stupid comment about science be the religion of many people here, just shut up. Science and religion are fundamentally different, science provides only the how, while religion attempts to provide both the how and the why. We do not worship science, we accept scientific theories through study and experimentation to see if they accurately predict or describe the behaviour of our universe. People accept religion in the hope of personal redemption, and to give them a motive for good deeds.

I think the view of christianity is different bettween the UK and the States. Christians in the UK are a very small number and are not particualy influential, they are just seen as nice people. Where as in the States I believe they have a lot of influence in politics and none christians especially scientists will see them as a pain.

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"very few of us here have any objection to spirituality, we will respect whatever beliefs you hold, as long as you have good reason for holding them."

No, spirituality is what ever you want to believe as long as it is yours. As iron said being a follower is the problem. You can believe what ever you want, you can hear people talk or read a book and believe what you wish but when thoughts are molded and they are no longer how you interpreted it, if what the book or person said you can't justify or feel is correct then you are part of an organized religion and you have sacrificed you ability to think. Spirituality is something that is 100% irrational but something that is 100% yours, no one can tell you, you are wrong.

Squarepants, this post is targeted a little more at christians but a hatred or dislike or organized religion is not limited to western religions I dislike a buddhist just as much as a like christian, not because they are bad people but simply because they are not bad people because they are controlled. =)

OK I'll admit it I get very emotional sometimes when I am writing a response to a post that talks about religion and spirituality. I'll be very honest here and say I am pretty confused about my place in said argument because I am still on my own journey of discovery and understanding and I find the whole thing sometimes very confusing.

I know most of you guys are completely against organised religion and mainly because you think (probably quite correctly from historical perspectives) that religion has caused many wars and most of the conflicts on this planet, but that is becasue it is precisesly the reason that people who are religious do become so emotionally attached to the subject matter. Of course they do, it is a matter of faith after all and involves the person's spiritual life, their everlasting soul.

It is not about science and physical reality and facts and empirical reasoning and all that stuff, its about subjective feelings, emotions, dreams, visions, the after life, God, demons, ghosts...basically things that are insubstantial and fantastical (I said fantastical not fantasy - I make a distinction here.)

Maybe I don't make sense or maybe I don't fully understand the debates, i don't always think in straight lines I'm afraid, that's just me. I'm not sure where I am going with this other than to say I still look at religions as a means to seek out a spiritual understanding about the universe and whether you or anyone else thinks it is wrong, or controlling or organised to a degree of elininating personal freedom I am just trying to answer the original post of a 12 year old girl and her pocket bible as a mobile phone and I say carry on reading, carry on learning and make up your own damn mind whether the bible has insights for you personally or not. For me it has offered some comfort and wisdom and for that I am grateful. I do believe in God and I will continue searching for answers to my own questions. I'm sorry Ironwood or anyone else if my animated posts aren't what you are looking for!