This Nation is behind its leaders!

When I joined this forum I thought it looked like a bunch of people who were speaking out against the US government and its exploits.

There's the anti Bush thread, and others that criticize US government exploits. Its all well and good excepting that Americans have one core belief in common: the belief that might is right. So the real issues around the Iraq war is not so much moral as it is a question of might could have been wrong â€' and we lose this war (just like in Vietnam). This is a real problem with US citizens and the government knows it!

The clue of our complicity lies in the kinds of entertainment we all love. Video games like World Domination, Gears of War, and all the best ones give you the weapons and graphics of an imaginary war so that you can experience might is right the American way.

And look at what a big hit the movie 300 is. We all love this movie because we love war, we think its heroic and we love to win. And we all believe that might is right.

I'm afraid I'm at a loss as to your intended meaning. Your post was somewhat convoluted and left open to multiple degrees of interpretation.

I would appreciate if you clarify as you speak of topics of interest to me.

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When I joined this forum I thought it looked like a bunch of people who were speaking out against the US government and its exploits.

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Is this a good thing or bad thing? Did you join in agreement with such a stance, or were you surprised and perhaps upset by it?

Are you saying we are going the wrong way because we love war or because we are following leaders who do?

Nah, I'm in agreement. Particularly with the stuff you have put up actually.

But I am cynical about it all in a general way of speaking because of living in a consumer-culture I look at the stuff young Americans like to consume (mostly guys â€' the soldier material). And I think the games we play the stories and movies we love to watch reveal something that is much closer in line with our leaders than we would like to think. It depresses me actually, the way all my mates and a lot of guys around here show their underlying love of war in games. But mostly how they love to win at these and believe that might is right. Just entertainment I know, but it says something about our nation imo.

Yeah, your question is more to the point. So maybe then we are all at fault when we use the roads and need gas for it.

But I have relatives who were involved in the Vietnam War and they assure me that the young people of that culture were more into love, music, and idealistic stuff. And they reckon that they would have no appetite for these annihilation type war games and movies because of what they saw in Vietnam. They say you can only think its fun if you've never been there.

So I'm thinking that maybe our generation is being groomed for war at home in the nursery so to speak. Being taught at play so that at least in the imagination, running around in combat gear and blowing up the enemy seems like a cool thing to do even if it is just a game.

I'm guessing Cheney and the rest of them would probably enjoy these types of games too, so in this way we connect in our minds and imagination even when we say we disagree with what they are doing. Only the government has the power to act out in real life and instead of just playing a game for scores, they aim to get rich in the process. And we stand right behind them even if we think we don't, because we are greedy for the same stuff, and our economy depends on it. The spoils of war.

Ok, here is something to keep in mind Tao. War readiness on an individual level is important to the survival of all. No matter how much one love's love and hate's war, if you are invaded by another person, clan, or national army, if you wish to live and protect your loved ones and means of sustaining yourself (home, food, income) then you had better have a plan and be able to enact it.

And more to a specific threat that we may be facing, if you are over taken by a tyrannical government, the same rules apply.

This notion becomes far more dire when incorporated with a progressed notion and reality of a one world government and multinational army being sent around to invade anything. With the right rulers of such a behemoth, no one is safe.

Americans are into war because they are human beings. Its in our culture more because we are a young nation who remembers where it came from. We warred to get our country and our freedom, unfortunately it is stained with the blood of innocents. We warred to decide how this country would be run. We have even warred for the sake of peace.

Now, as has been happening for a few decades, we war for the greed of those who would claim that we are taking that which will sustain us and bring freedom, prosperity, and security to all, but these are lies, though they could be true, they are not because those who are making the wars are not intent upon sharing or providing freedom to anyone.

They desire elites and a servant class. And they will kill to get it.

Justified self defense is a posistion of war that can lead to peace and honor, an unfortunate path to be sure, but naked aggression and greed can only lead to more war. Because even once one almighty force dominates all, a war against humanity itself will rage. Nazi germany is but one example that exemplifies this, one example of many.

But vigilance and preparation can only be ingored at the risk of all that you hold dear. This is the balance that permits any degree of freedom, because freedom is not free.

You are right Iornwood, and my Dad also says the motivation for war in Iraq is evil. You see the thing is my dad was a pilot in Vietnam, and my Mom was born in Vietnam. My dad is very anti war and the other day my friends came around and they were just going on about how cool the Gears of War game was, and my dad nails them about wanting to play war games and bombing stuff etc. And he called them spoilt-brat-Americans always looking for their next thrill.

And so then a family argument starts up, and my big brother is at home visiting and this is a sore point for my Dad because he is keen to fight in Iraq, and my Dad is against this war.
So now I am trying to make sense of it all, but I see your point about being ready for war. My big brother would agree with you here. But in my house all the talk is anti-war, and so I just put this together with all my mates who love to play war games and I know my Dad is not impressed that's all.

One time at high school there was a parents meeting and a teacher recognized my Dad and made the mistake of saying something to the effect of how proud he was to meet my Dad because of Vietnam. My Dad walks with a stick, and he poked this man in the chest with it and said, “There ain't nothing to be proud of to do with that!”

By the way Decius I asked my Dad your question, about how he would feel if everyone loved the games because of strategy exercises but meanwhile they hated the war and disagreed with the government. He put down his paper and looked me in the eye, and asked me how many dudes I knew of that were really anti war? And the truth is most of them don't really give a shit, they just care about the games and chicks and stuff they can get their hands on. He said they need to wake up and realize they're not living in Disney Land, so he's not easing up on them.

But I think this thing with my big brother wanting to go to Iraq is the real thorn in his side. My parents have lots of arguments about this and my mom tried to say that it must be because my brother was conceived in a war zone that he is now drawn to war. But my Dad just says “Don't speak rubbish woman, he still has a brain”.

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But then again, who is going to invade who? Americans have been doing all the "invading" for over the last half century.

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Great question, easy answer, two points, either we can "war" with those in our countries causing and condoning these wars and invasions, politically and or physically, because we are responsible for the acts of ourselves and our "representatives", and if we do not, then the world may have to invade us to do OUR job for us.

And don't think that just because we are mostly left alone while we are simply appeased with tales of injustice and righteousness, apathetically allowing or even advocating and actively supporting such abuse of power that it won't turn on us in the end, the reason it hasn't already is likely because we could still stop it, but that will not last forever.

And I think everyone is very correct about the problem of...

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spoilt-brat-Americans always looking for their next thrill

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apathy that is bred, and as you pointed out, this is sustained by consumerism.

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These natural and designed occurances of lacking discipline and awareness are compounded by a very real problem that actually hinders fixing such laziness and apathetic ignorance.

This is intentional secrecy, propaganda, and misinformation (also known as lies). Specifically in respect to issues of war.

There is a disturbing cliche about the first casualty of war being truth.

And of course the importance of this is that all legitimate arguments for or against the use of force are completely dependent upon the truth of the circumstances of the situation at hand.

But I don't have all the relevant information to debate everyone's opinions or reasoning yet, but I see an interesting opportunity for a third party conversation that could help clarify.

Tao, what I'd like to know is why in particular your brother desires to go to Iraq, given the context of the thread it would be too easy to write him off as a "spoilt-brat-Americans always looking for their next thrill". But that leaves the questions about any politcal-mindedness, even if it is just brainwashing from some form of media, say, fox news. Because there are plenty of people who are truly convinced that if they don't go kill radical muslims "over there" that they will soon be living as one or facing the consequences of trying not too. And if this were true, I wouldn't blame them for it.

And specifically why your dad is against the war. Is it personal experience of war and being incensed by those seemingly so ignorant of its horrors that they would actually glorify and endorse it? Or is it deeper still, not excluding that, but in addition to it. Such as knowledge of the history of wars, especially covert wars and greater insight into the true intentions of those guilty of actually fomenting them. Perhaps he is savvy to those who are truly benefitting the most from all this never ending war and all of the deciet that they are willing to engage in it to continue to do so.

I mean seriously, how many times will we buy the notion that it is a good idea to create tyranny and war to try to end tyranny and war?

I too have to say I too like your dads attitude Tao.

(My grandfather was in WW2 and as 5 year old boy, my head filled with the glorious notions of war I was being taught in my sandpit, I used to ask him how many people he killed. He would always tell me that you dont count something like that, or its not something he cared to remember.)

I have to agree with what's been said by Ironwood and Decius about consumerism and apathy helping play a role in making it so easy for politicians to wage their personal wars, killing and maiming thousands in far off countries, while their own people sit back and eat McDonalds and die of obesity, diabetes and heart disease, happy and content they are the ones who own the bombs.

This clip taken from an Australian political comedy show called CNNNN is a good example of how a western country can live in such a utopian, secular society for so long, that their decisions about death and widescale murder are no more than cause for a good day out and could possibly result in a prize if they get the right answer.

Proof that many are infact behind their leaders- with the strong conviction only ignorance can give them. And they are willing fight- with the blood of any foolish enough to die for them. And the dead that pile up on the other side of the globe- are no different to those they voted off an island for a TV show.

If you are going to decide another's fate. Know who they are.

If you are going to condone the destruction of another land. Know where it is.

And if you are going to decide someone needs to die. Go try and kill them yourself.

Yeah. Now you see Chained Wings if I showed this video clip to my Dad, he would go ape. He already thinks most Americans are stupid, but man! these are grown ups and they don't know shit about anything!!!

I should tell you that I joined this forum on the quiet (my Dad doesn't know about it and I doubt he would approve of me discussing him anyway). But I'm a bit more like my Mom in the way that I need to talk about stuff.

My Dad has some unique experiences behind him, but he also has a lot of anger, and anyway he doesn't like to talk about it that much.
My Mom says there were two ways of coping for young US men in Vietnam. One way was using drugs, but my Dad never did that and anyway he was a pilot so he had to have his wits about him.

My Mom says that one thing she loved about my Dad was that he was brave and never tried to turn away from the truth. Then my Dad says that he loved that my Mom had been involved in trying to shoot down US airplanes! It's actually true â€' a lot of woman got involved in the fighting. And all he said was “Good for you”, so that's how I know that my Dad does not feel good about what the US Airforce did in Vietnam.

My Dad says, “Bombing for peace is like fucking for Virginity”
And he has a lot of anger about this and that makes him solitary. Now he gets involved with conservation and stuff, so he likes to go camping and sometimes gets involved in conservationist projects, but he never tells people he was a pilot in Vietnam.

I hope to become a Journalist someday, because I like to find out the real stories. In fact I hope to one day write my Dads memoirs and tell the story of his life and how much the War changed him and all our lives.

And you are right Decius, my Dad is very smart - my Grandmother says he's too smart for his own good. But he is a troubled man and he can be very difficult I can tell you that, and he can be very hard on folks too.

Some years ago we were invited to this Barbecue in our neighborhood. I was at school with the son, and his mom had befriended my Mom and that was unusual because my Mom is not like your typical American Mom.

And so all was going well until my friend's dad (who is a bodybuilding tool and my Dad walks with a stick) learns that my Dad was in Vietnam. Man, that's when things got totally out of hand. The bodybuilder tried to argue about Vietnam. And my Dad was like there man, so he didn't take kindly to this dudes phony politics and so a fight ensued. Then we left before eating and the bodybuilder called my Dad a traitor. My Dads face went black with anger and he said to my Mom “is this what we were fighting for?” These days my Dad tends to keep to himself and doesn't talk much about the war. But I hope my Dad will tell me everything one day, because I need to know.