Commonsense Australian Politics

Muslims who want to live under the Islamic Sharia law were told Wednesday to get out of Australia as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.
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Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state and its laws were made by parliament.

"If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on national television.

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that that is false."

"If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts,democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country which practises it, perhaps, then, that's a better option," Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked move to the other country.

Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off".

"Basically, people who don't want to be Australians, and they don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then they can basically clear off," he said.

Muslim schools will have to denounce terrorism as part of an effort to stamp out home-grown extremism under measures announced after Howard's meeting with 14 Islamic leaders Tuesday.

The prime minister called the meeting in the wake of last month's London bombings by British-born Muslims, amid fears that Australia could be the target of a similar attack by disaffected members of its small Muslim community.

"The purpose of the meeting was to identify ways of preventing the emergence of any terrorist behaviour in this country," Howard told commercial radio Wednesday.

"You won't change the minds of people who are hardened fanatics and hardened extremists. You have to identify them and take measures to ensure that they don't become a problem."

Asked if he was prepared to "get inside" mosques and schools to ensure there was no support for terrorism, Howard said: "Yes, to the extent necessary".

Britain, shaken by the rail and bus bombings which killed 56 people, is debating new powers which could include closing mosques where clerics are suspected of supporting extremists and deporting those who glorify suicide bombers.

Australia, which like Britain has troops in Iraq, is also contemplating tougher anti-terror legislation. which will be debated next month at a meeting between Howard and leaders of state governments.

Meanwhile, an Islamic youth organisation that was not invited to Howard's Tuesday meeting said it would call an alternative conference -- on September 11 -- for what it says is the 80 percent of Muslims who were not represented.

The Affinity Intercultural Foundation (AIF) told national radio it wants to try to change the date's association with Islamic violence, and to highlight how mainstream Muslims have become victims of prejudice and bias.

AIF director Mehmet Saral said Muslims were feeling more victimised than at any other time in their history of living in Australia. Some 300,000 Muslims make up just 1.5 percent of Australia's population of 20 million.

Imagine if this was said about Jewish Zionists or Christian Extremists etc etc.

It is of course the only way to even attempt being fair about it.

But then of course to stop extremists and terrorists we would also have to change government policies, foreign and domestic, and probably restructure most "intelligence" agencies as well as many covert activities.

Political extremists isn't even a common term, I may have just coined it for all I know, but like America's war, or crusade, against terrorism, this represents a nation acting in fear and trying to FORCE hegemony of its ways and beliefs over all others, which has turned out to be anything but democratic, and is exactly what Islamic extremists are accused of and feared to be doing.

http://www.captaincynic.com/thread/67345/the_threat_of_religious_extremi
sm.htm

Religious "laws" are generally held above Governmental laws for its followers regardless of the religion.

If I went to my next door neighbour's house, or even if I was invited, I have a choice to go or not to go. I recognise that going next door if I go I should respect there way of doing things. If I go next door and call his wife a whore; a bitch; a slag; I'll get kicked out. Its simple. If they didn't kick me out I'll either leave or I'll step up the pace. Now you can argue its because of fear that they kick me out. It doesn't matter. Its still plain wrong. I'm the one in the wrong. Not them.

I've talked to these 'political radicalists', or religious radicalists; they really believe George Bush is the devil and they think, me, a Briton, because I live in Briton, I'm evil. They say I should be Islamic and follow the rules of Islam. To them, Islam is a similee to a pro-Islamic state. Politics and religion merges. Now, if the voice of reason doesn't get through then you say I gave you a chance and you took it. In the UK because of pussy-footing around to cater for their needs, we pay for non-English speaking Muslims to have accomodation and we give them benefits if they do not have a house. Some may or may not agree with this. The point is, if they start to criticise the host nation and say how another is better; then they should leave.

'Words' or 'phrases' like religious 'laws' are above governmental laws are sound in principle. In practice, these are an excuse to say that my religious law says I cannot do this and therefore you should change your governmnetal law to suit it. I know many very rich Muslims who have used this excuse precisely for the aim of getting money at the expense of hard-working citisens. There comes a logical point where you say 'well if your problems conflict that much; find somewhere else to live'.


Its unfortunate that many people believe in propoganda and the media. However, they do. And if reason will not get through, then you have a clear decision. Now, I happen to like it here in Brirtain; its the best of a bad world. I will try and change it to be better. However, I would have to be insain to want to go to an Islamic state where reason is less obvious and blind faith rules more. Democracy works to a point; and then one must talk straight down the line. Thats what he's doing. In school a few (probably myself) would ruin some things for all the class. And the teacher would say; right I know one of you has done this; so unless you own up, the whole class will stay behind. This example is more extreme than what the Australian Prime minister is saying; but he knows not all muslims are bad. Its a few that spoil it; and I've talked to some of them. If only the Islamic extremists get kicked out I think that is a very sensible thing to do.

The problem in Britain right now, is that because so many people are getting angered by some Muslims, they put them all in the same basket; hence the rise in far right wing seats now being seen across the country. this method gets rid of the bad ones and keeps the general bunch. Sensible, reasonable, logical.

When in Rome.

Innocent until proven guilty. You are punishing people who have not proven to commit anything more than thought or free expression.

The point of All radicals needing to then be exiled still stands, and then that of course means all law breakers, because they simply choose not to live by your country's rules, which is basically your reasoning, and which is of course impossible.

What particular propaganda do you see people buying? Your particular stance of a sudden distaste for Muslim fundamentalists would seem awfully in line with much media. Especially here in America right now.

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If only the Islamic extremists get kicked out I think that is a very sensible thing to do.

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You mean someone who disagrees extremely, untill you clarify why and how you are going to pick Islamic etremists only, and maybe add what an extremist is to you, for clarification. Because I'd really like to know how you are planning to distinguish which people you will allow to live in their homes or stay with their families, keep their jobs etc.

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The problem in Britain right now, is that because so many people are getting angered by some Muslims

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Almost, try this.

The problem in Britain right now, is that so many people are getting angered by some Muslims.

Again, I dare you to try to say these things about the Extremist Jews (Zionists), Christians, etc. Even attempting to distinguish between extremists and non. Do you think they are voting for British democracy? Do you think they don't have fanatics who kill?

Do you not care unless they are Islamic?

Look, you say you are in a Democracy, people are premitted to hold whatever opinion they choose without fear of reprisal, but the majority will decide the law, unless the system becomes corrupted.

So if you don't like your own democracy, maybe you should, um, leave..., install a totalitarian system, um, maybe you should check into the fact that your non islamic extremist leaders are the ones actually taking extremist actions on people in their own land.

Or maybe you might be more concerned about getting those behind 7/7

Did you know about the drills on 7/7, teams of people "pretending" to do and react to exactly what happened exactly, where it happened, and exactly when it happened by the order, and under the employ of whatever little group runs those trains and buses?

I don't like extremists of any sort. The fact that Zionists maybe murdering I also dislike. I also dislike fundamental Christians. Look; I'm a grown-up I know democracy in its purest sense is a crock of shit because it simply doesn't work in the real world but the idea of it is still better, in my view, than anything else we've got.

The point with extremist Muslims is that these people are actually, physically, tormenting and hurting my friends. I have witnessed it in person. Tehe fact that its affecting me doesnt really bother me. But when I see my friends hurt and powerless to stop something, I begin to ask questions.

Now, I have no problem with Muslims. And those Muslims who have been born here are British citizens and therefore have every right to be here; even if they are fundamentalist; it makes them no diferent to fundamental Christians; Jews or whatever. I know at the top all these people are corrupt relative to our standards; its the way of the world. Britain stood aside and watched this; and born out from it is hatred of Muslims; be they extremist or not. I don't like this. If Britain would have set this in stone earlier; Muslims who were genuine could live here. The ignorant peoples are slowly putting all the terrorist people and slowly labelling them as Muslims. This is a tragedy; and unless some kind of stop is put upon Muslims then it must stop.

You talk about freedom of speech; and freedom of speech is fine. But, of course, there are limits to freedom of speech in Islamic Nations. The point is why should we continuosly allow something that would certainly not be tolerated in the middle east. Could you imagine a fundamental Christian in Iran? Could you imagine a Christian in Iran. Its one law for one and one for another.

The point is this; if you choose to go to Australia and are not an Australian citizen and don't learn the language, and wish to deny the laws of the land in favour of some other; and try to impose these laws; well you can leave. This should apply to ALL extremists who go to Australia. Simple. The fact its happening to Muslims I would sense is because of recent terrorist attacks and the association with Islam. Be this true or not, the normal everyday people believe it and that includes both the native Australians and the migrant fundamental Muslims. I agree that guilty before proven innocent is true and wrong. And this works in a court of law, but thats not how democracry works with large numbers. I can scream and shout and if I don't like it maybe move to another universe. The point is, as was with the negroes in America, there is clear hostility and as a person, living as a citizen you have to side sometimes. And if you don't, what can happen is the situation becomes worse and more people are hurt, as is the case now in Britain.

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The point with extremist Muslims is that these people are actually, physically, tormenting and hurting my friends. I have witnessed it in person.

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You are witnessing crimes? Call the police. Untill someone is breaking the law you are just reinforcing their posistion and power by affirming it.

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and unless some kind of stop is put upon Muslims then it must stop.

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A stop put upon muslims? What do you mean?

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But, of course, there are limits to freedom of speech in Islamic Nations. The point is why should we continuosly allow something that would certainly not be tolerated in the middle east.

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Because we are not the middle east. You are complaining about their desired ways, yet you seem to want to adopt them.

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The point is this; if you choose to go to Australia and are not an Australian citizen and don't learn the language, and wish to deny the laws of the land in favour of some other; and try to impose these laws; well you can leave.

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Or you can integrate or take over, by force or democracy.

You seem to be concerned about your laws being violated or changed, perhaps to islamic law. Are you afraid of losing your rights or something? Perhaps you should turn your attention again to your non muslim extremist leaders who have you on the fast track to a police state. Like in America, it is a simple fact that we have lost more rights by the hands of our own governments than any muslim. Extremists indeed.

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The point is this; if you choose to go to Australia and are not an Australian citizen and don't learn the language, and wish to deny the laws of the land in favour of some other; and try to impose these laws; well you can leave. This should apply to ALL extremists who go to Australia. Simple.

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Todays Auzzies wouldn't live in Australia if they had followed this logic. Simple indeed.

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The fact its happening to Muslims I would sense is because of recent terrorist attacks and the association with Islam. Be this true or not, the normal everyday people believe it ....

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True or not seems fairly important, any reasonable, rational, and logical person would want this sorted out before becoming an extremist themselves and having selective sections of the population punished.

If it comes to be found that the terrorists are indeed state sponsored as there is already evidence showing, then you rational people can finally focus on the source of the problem rather than causing more.

Extremists muslims are not suddenly a problem, your focus upon them, manipulated by propaganda and lies, is the problem. And now your reactions to it are simply causing more problems which you are blaming on others as well.

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The point is, as was with the negroes in America, there is clear hostility and as a person, living as a citizen you have to side sometimes.

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Negroes in America were persecuted by Christian Extremists. And by irrational logic allowing laws creating unequality, just as you are suggesting.

I'm unsure who your attacking here. Is it the system? What is the system?

I know very well that the systems are corrupted. I know very well that most probably the extremist muslims are completely buying into a crock of shit. I also know that me, a Brit, listens to a crock of shit on the news too. I'm not arguing that. Give me any extremist and I will make them eventually see sense. But there are few people like this.

We live in a world of enemies. In our world we live with the top of the game having a mind which is concious of its own existence; and because of this the shift for power focuses on mind exercises rather than physically becomming animalistic. It is, if we like, a battle of words. Like I said it is unfortunate people buy into these words.

It is also unfortunate that Islamic states may tolerate extreme Islam in exactly the same way that America tolerates extreme Christianity. Both are bad. Any extremism is bad.

I don't have a problem with people, that is individuals, but unfortunately when there are many people they believe, be this their choice or not, things which simply can be fabricated. I can shout at them from hill tops. But if they do not have good ears they simply will not listen.

Ironwood, your attempts to bring corruption into the mainstream to make people see is very good. And it is absolutely a sign of our freedom that we can do this. The fact, for example, Operation Northwoods came out is great. It is also great that it was able to come out. We don't live in a perfect world and however much I hate this; I can either live in it or not.

My point is local; not higher than that. And my point is we have ordinary people. For the time being it doesn;t matter if these people are living in an illusion; but we have ordinary people believing that Islam is great and that The west is evil and we have people believing that Islam is bad and that the West is evil. I dislike both just as much. But, that is the fact. It is a fact. If it could it would stand up and slap me in the face it is that obvious. Democracy is a farce; but there is hope. The very fact we have more open systems that we do have more reason; people are willing to stand aside and be reasonable, and this is because of eductaion.

Only an insane person would choose to live in the middle east over a sane person. Why is it that there are more Mulims entering the West than there are Westerners enterin the Middle East? They choose to do this. Ordinary people choose to do this. With this choice comes the responsibility of actually being willing to shift opinion. Look, we do have identity. Its clear. In the UK we have a monarch we have ways, we are mostly Christian. Are we pretending otherwise. Why pretend otherwise?

You have to remember that martyrs who are willing to die in the name of islam see the west as the devil. This may not have been true; but now ordinary citizens by into it. We can't simply sit aside and wait for it to happen knowing it will happen. No member in any family, anywhere would do such a thing; and if they did I would question their mentality.

If extremists, not Muslims, but extremist muslims, wish to go to Australia and set foot upon their land and then say they hate Australia, well it seems to me, they should be told to get out. Its better for them, its better for the people.

As for the crimes I'm witnessing, the other side is the human righst banner which seems to basically allow criminals to get away with so much.

Look, we're not ready yet as a species to become understanding; we need law and order. I wish it were not so; but its a fact. Ironwood, if you can change this fact you have my backing.

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You have to remember that martyrs who are willing to die in the name of islam see the west as the devil.

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And US and UK soldiers dying because they think "Haji's" are evil, scum, the enemy, are what exactly? Patriotic and sane?

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This may not have been true; but now ordinary citizens by into it. We can't simply sit aside and wait for it to happen knowing it will happen.

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Actually, unless you can prove someone is actually plotting to kill, that's exactly what you have to do. Or you are no better. Let's see you clear out all potential UK born murderers.

The point is, there will always be people who are or become violent, but in a democratic republic, not a democracy, you have to protect EVERYONE'S rights to be loud mouth assholes and delusional and brainwashed nutjobs.

If they don't like Australian law, just as australian natives, they are more than welcome to try to change it, through diplomatic means.

If they commit crimes, it does not matter their persuasion, THEN they can be persecuted.

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As for the crimes I'm witnessing, the other side is the human righst banner which seems to basically allow criminals to get away with so much.

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Human rights don't cover allowing crimes.

Look, you pointed out how you don't accept either side being extreme on this issue, you have even mentioned that you would be willing to get rid of all extremists, but the point of your initial post is that you are condoning Australia's focus on Muslims, based on propaganda, which means this isn't reasonable.

Since Islamic terrorists as defined by our medias and governments tend to be either state sponsored or actually Muslims defending themselves spun backwards, these Muslim specific actions of persecution are not ok. Even against non violent extremists.

And the reason I bring up "the bigger picture" is because of the main two points stated above, that people's sudden outrage at Muslim extremists is due to government and media propaganda and their own terrorist actions, therefore I get upset when people blame muslims for acts and lies of their own religious and political affiliates.

If people are going to make a stink, I would hope they would point it in the right direction. Whereas pointing at muslims will only fuel Muslim extremists by giving them more good reasons to hate the west, of which they have plenty.

The west IS evil to the mideast, and not just because they fanatically say so, it is a simple sad fact. One that WE have to acknowledge and fix, not by persecuting them even more under such backwards reasoning.

The handfuls of terrorists acts attributed to them, many quite wrongly do to intentional deception, don't even begin to add up to the west's and Israel's persecution, wars, and terrorism against them.

So again, my point is that there should be no focus on muslim extremists period, its either all extremists or none, and the real extremists to worry about appear to be in office.

People's anger is focused in the wrong direction due to deception, this persecution is wrong, persecute the decievers.

I don;t have a problem with home-born muslims causing a fuss. Well, actually I do, I dislike it as much as any other extremist, but I tolerate it because that's their right to talk.

But , irrespective, the point still stands that if a nation stands against extreme muslims, for whatever reason, if they enter that said country and enter with hatred of the host nation, then the question remains; why are they there? It is sensible for all concerned for them not to be.

If your mother had was being verbally tormented by someone, and yet in truth your mother was in the wrong, and no communication or diplomacy would stop this, who would you side with if came to crunch?

Your thoughts are a wish.

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But , irrespective, the point still stands that if a nation stands against extreme muslims...

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more than other extremists than they are biased, prejudice, and probably borderline racist and helping create and become the "enemy" they hope to get rid of.

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if they enter that said country and enter with hatred of the host nation, then the question remains; why are they there?

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Good question, maybe you should ask it. They probably moved there after being bombed by the "west". Or as an odd uncle with a family with good intentions. You must keep in mind the extremists are the extreme minority. And that ALL extremists ideologists are trying to put their ideology in control of the world.

Look, you and I are criminally and agressively bombing their homelands and families and you, or the many people to which you refer, are getting mad at them for being upset. WE are the ones militarily and corporately invading their lands, killing and raping both their people and resources.

Where are you going to ship these people when there are no borders left? There will always be polarizing opinions that become heated, even violent.

This logic of exile expresses more concern over the minority of extremists, and ultra minority when further singling out Muslim extremists, over the problem of a looming endless world war and those who are actually trying to create it, supposedly in response to a minimal threat, both relatively and statistically. Which is why there are now so many more noticable, actual, muslim extremists mixed with the fabricated ones.

It would seem you miss the point that this is a symptom, and though you want to focus locally, you cannot if you wish to solve the problem. THAT, is common sense.

See, you may think that you have a bad tooth that needs to be at first medicated and ultimately pulled, but in fact you are eating bad shit that is being force fed to you and is rotting all your teeth.

I understand you have more open eyes, but you are still conding an innapropriate treatment, or pain reliever. Though you tell me about the clarity of your vision, it does not matter if you aren't trying to fix it and are actively condoning the acts that make things worse.

Tell me this, when even a misguided or even biased and loud Muslim sees your leaders not only invading and destroying his homelands (hearing and seeing all the horror stories we are sheilded from and lied to about), but also attacking him in his new homeland where he had the gall to inform you and the people of the wrongs against him, while also watching your leader take away YOUR rights, dignity, and liberties and even attacking YOU, while knowing you are being lied to but, like myself, hears you tell him that you are even aware of this corruption, that you would not only do nothing about it, but actually help them persecute him further.

Trust me, I understand there are dumbasses out there who will never learn, but unless we want to be like them, we must act differently.

You know ironwood, really there are few that can really think for themselves and not be swayed by opinion; but stand by what is just and what is right.

I was reading today an article on The Pope and his comments about Islam.

Here's the link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5376556.stm

The two quotes struck me in this:

1. I would like today to stress my total and profound respect for all Muslims
Pope Benedict XVI

2. The Pope, or indeed anyone else, has the right to make remarks (in this case not even his own) about any religion, it's called freedom of speech
Qwerty, UK

I'll tell you the truth I haven't read the rest. These quotes left me thinking. See, the reasonably inteligent person reads the Pope's reaction. The reinforcing this is the real message; why should he apologise?

I set myself aside from this and said; is this so brilliantly structured to make people think like this? Is this really propoganda; how to lead people down the garden path so to speak to make them think that we are giving them a chance and they are not listening?

And I thought maybe this is so. But the other way is also likely. See my point is we must teach that this coild be true or that could be true. Eventually we must make a decision as to who the enemy is. And I don;t know who the enemy is. The enemy is imaginary in people's heads.

But those people, believers, or whatever they happen to be also happen to be my friends, my family, etc. And I have the ability to let people see both sides; but there are bigger fish than me; systems that inforce this better than anything we know of.

In the long-run all protests of this nature do is to make fundamentalists more fundamental. The real reason, you might say, that Australia don't want religious fundamentalists in their country is because Asutralians might actually start listening to them. Yeah, this might be true. But if they were to start listening to them; they may listen to them too much. And remember; aside from all the wish-wash democracy and what they say there real intent is to enforce Islamac principles. And then we're left with something in my eyes which is worse than was before.

That might seem like jumping the gun; and it might be true. But is that risk worth taking. In the long run; shouting and screaming seems only to cause more harm and death than actually stating, categorically, up front what your all about. I don;t think Britain pretends to be any different; for the Queen stands there as a sign that we have hieracrhy. I mean America pretends to not have hierarchy but it does. this bits a fact. The hard bit is choosing to act or to not act; indeed just like Shakespeare he said to be or not to be that is the question. I think he was wrong; its not the question; its the answer.

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But if they were to start listening to them; they may listen to them too much.

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Then our spies, and subsequently our governments would be the first "infected". If these words weren't so important to hear we wouldn't be trying so hard to listen to them, or stop them.

You cannot blame words for people's actions, this argument is what takes peole's only other weapon of self defense, guns,

And this loss of the pen, free speach (and the ever so forgotten right to hear it), will not stop with automatic rifles, I mean Muslim extremists.

This is what the Nazi's did with Jews and all other's deemed subversive. It's what everyone does when they decide to cross the line into becoming what they hate and fear. Spying on what people read at libraries, censorship, secrecy, book banning and burning.

History's cliche of repetition is based on people's ignorance, ya know, the thing that comes from hiding and manipulating information and free speach.

Yes Ironwood; but you may be forgetting the opposite; The Islamic extremists also don't want to hear the West's view.

The thing we need to remeber is the incentive of people. And its quite simple really everything is a balance between the harm and good done and this is traded off between social, economic and moral issues. And the other important facet is the depth and bredth of the environmental influence the person is exposed of. Add all the collectives up and form into the necessary groups.

Think of the uproar that would have been caused by Pearl harbour if it really is true that this was forseen by the US and yet they allowed it to happen so the US could enter WW2. If the people suspected this then the government would be done for treason. Or it would just try another way so it could get into WW2. And we now consider that act of deception a thing fot the greater good; if it is true that is. And there's a point for consideration.

Some people dwell on the lines. Some people dwell between the lines. Intelligence isn't really the answer here; the answer lies in what you consider right and what you thing is best and which way will work.

Diluting the waters this side whilst the waters remain muddy on the other doesn't solve the problem. What solves the problem is peace and both sides, in truth, aren't willing. That's how it is. The human simply isn't evolved enough yet to let go of hatred. It is good to inform people of these things but it has to be done on both sides. And it is a wish that this will happen but for the time being it isn't the way to go about things. The method you talk of could work but its risky. I think too risky to be sensible.

What is sensible is the internet and the availabilty of talking to one another from different countries; this liberty is something to very much hold on to.

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Yes Ironwood; but you may be forgetting the opposite; The Islamic extremists also don't want to hear the West's view

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No, its about having the right to hear, and say. Not about whether you, they, or I like or want what is said.

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And we now consider that act of deception a thing fot the greater good; if it is true that is. And there's a point for consideration.

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Do we? How can we? We don't know the full circumstances as a national or world population. So this consideration is based on nothing, but popular perception. And the more facts and evidence being shown and discovered, freed from secrecy, is pointing at anything but an intention or outcome towards the common good.

We are still only but learning secrets of the past even that far back, what makes you think the popular perception has any justification?

You think we won WWII? I have the grandson of one of Hitler's Nazi corporate bankers as my president. And another as the Governor of one of the most important electoral states.

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Some people dwell on the lines. Some people dwell between the lines

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Neither of which represent the big picture.

A big part of which is that my country has suffered a coup that is affecting the entire globe, creating an overt global war that is still in its infancy.

I'm watching the "free world" react and crack down on dissent and free speach, there are concentration camps going up across my backyard, and my country is invading the world.

There is a culture war being fomented in one of the largest scale schemes of divide and conquer. And this article's premise is promoting it, intentionally or ignorantly through unreasonable reaction.

Muslim extremists are the excuse and distraction that allows all the frightened minds to avoid the truth. Defend it all you like, but know that there are consequences to your actions, as well as your and our inactions.

It doesn't work to impose on people the way things are and to enforce it with fear because people ordinarily reject anything that could scare them with a shield. in spoken word like changing the topic or avoiding it. It is bred in each person the neccesity to help themselves and their children to be able to fit in the society so the environment it sees and behaves in is happy. And that's what people want happinnes. And almost everybody's yardstick is not in 10 years but now, the next few days. A frog doesn't recgnise its in a pan and boiling if its gradually heating until it passes through a temperature; pain threshold.

And it is for this reason, factually, that people will simply not listen to what could be the truth for the easiness of the way things are is ok. And as long as the conditions are reasonably tolerable; people seek their happiness by pushing the boundaries of the imposed environment; be this larger or smaller than it was before.

You clearly know a lot about what is possibly true about the way things are an are created top-down. I don't but I understand the nature of people and the limits of my understanding and the limits of my influence.

This type of knowledge should be spread but, truthfully, holding it dear is like a man shouting out he is right against people who a) aren't listening b) who aren't recording it and c) only serves to reject this kind of knowledge more as 'conspiracy'. Its more wise in reality to spread it liek an undertone, if you want, to people who will listen.

In my opinion, and that;s what it boils down to, we either be totally liberal or we be totally hard-line; within reason of course. And, since I think the former is currently impossible, I find it better for the happiness of people to go with the latter. I guess it depends whether truth is more important and what we do or the state of the people that do the things. And, in some ways, comradary is a kind of good thing and its even better when this imposed box is pushed; but it should be pushed slowly; not at 600 mph.

If you think of the world we're born into its not perfect. And its not perfect for a good reason; and thats that we can push the limits of what was so that what is can become better. But if we try to build a house without first laying the foundations we become an idealist and a useless builder. What I mean by this is that yes all these things might be happening at this higha level; but if we're not used to dealing with things at this high a level; we work at first at helping people local to us. Local issues first; national issues second; global issues third. Its ok saying to tackle a problem with concentrate on its root but thats just mumbo-jumbo in this context for its like trying to get to the core of the earth with a shovel; you need companions first-and they are local.