A bit of common sense

Right, nail on the head time.

There's the internet and there's the real world. There's tv and there's teh real world. There's the real world as a primary source, not a second one.

Whilst for some time it is good that people begin to think for themselves and question things, I think its gone far too far. Questioning authority is different to just totally mistrusting it.

1984 was a good book by saying big brother is watching you, la de da. But, actually, by having a load of people mistrust authority, what this can do is actually make authority clamp down harder. I promise you, without education, most of us would be far more 'ruthless' tahn we are now. We sure wouldnt have vegetarians!!!

What I'm saying is that a shift is happening where people are more likely to believe the fantasy than they are the real way of things. This is paranoia. Its what happened in the middle ages with what we now call superstition. If you want an example, left-handed people are called sinister because they sit on the left hand of the father, and since Jesus sits at the right hand of God, or to be pedantic, goodness sits there, we are suposed to think left handed people are sinister. This type of stuff is no different than the claims of people nowadays when the news comes on (such as bird flu) and the internet is flushed with "conspiracy". To those I say: Read what your told first, then if you like, find the conspiracy!!

I'll admit Bush is not exactly a great leader. Great leaders should carry self respect, be liked by everyone, be able to walk with kings and commonpeople alike. Bush is hardly this.

But Bush isn't everyone! There are valid scientists out there, professionals, hard-working people specialised in things. Give them some credit over generalists. We're lacking heroes and heroins. There's too much self worth and not enough giving.

What use is fighting for tomorrow if we don't start getting on with today and living in the real world where most people live? The real world is diminishing and the virtual world is taking over. Lets stop this before it goes too far.

Just think of The Da Vinci Code. All you gotta do is lay a few stepstones and people will walk that path and then they'll take the main messages as fact eventually. And what you have is a house...sometimes mansions, even hotels, built on quicksand. Lets start getting the basics right. Lets listen to the sound and not the noise.

quote:

---

Give them some credit over generalists.

---

Generalists like you?

Do you realize that your entire post is a nondescript generalization?

quote:

---

There are valid scientists out there, professionals, hard-working people specialised in things.

---

Wow, such clarity and insight. There are indeed such people, and guess what, if you take the time to look, you will notice that there is conflicting information coming from such sources. Such as government representatives, insiders, and scientists alike.

Would you care to clarify as to how you distinguish who is being honest and who is not? The best way I've seen done is to follow the money, when a scientist, government representative, is voicing an opinion or a claimed bit of research while being paid by a group that supports only one possibility is often all the clues needed. But that takes effort and research into what by definition is a conspiracy.

Distrust in authority does not come from just novels and paranoia, that's a retarded assertion.

Distrust comes also from blatant lies, proven corruption and conspiracy. Conspiracy being a term that you are most likely reacting to in the fashion of overgeneralizations that you are accusing others of, and rightfully so to an extent, but then you overgeneralize and void your own point.

Every enemy of our home countries tends to get labled corrupt, evil, conspiratorial, blah blah blah. And people eat it up, but when it gets said about their country? People like you have a fit.

So what is YOUR source of "real world" information? The one to have lifted this cloud of unfounded paranoia? Which you seem to display some paranoia over.

Or are you against clarifying anything in your protest against overgeneralizations?

You made the point that the internet is flushed with conspiracy. You don't compare this to anything else. News tells us of conspiracy on a constant basis, from Valerie Plame to Enron, Watergate to Iran Contra.

From nobodies to world leaders.

You make reference to fantasy and the real world. What is your basis of which is which?

Are you referring to that which we see first hand that which we do not? What exactly? For conspiracies that go to court tend to have something called witnesses, regardless of whether you or I are the witnesses.

Ok, so lets say in your point of internet conspiracy you actually mean conspiracies either not covered by mainstream media, or simply denied by them and or the government, or just not believed or talked about by people in general.

In this regard I have some important points for you to digest. Censorship, Propaganda, National Security, and Covert Operations.

These are actual tools of our governments that, my friend, mean that everything you tend to think you know about any event of National Security is going to be filled with lies, fantasy as you would refer to it.

A fantasy being pushed upon us that we are meant to believe and follow, sort of like something you said...

quote:

---

All you gotta do is lay a few stepstones and people will walk that path and then they'll take the main messages as fact eventually.

---

Maybe these next two quotes will shed some light for you as well.

quote:

---

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
-- Joseph Goebbels, German Minister of Propaganda, 1933-1945

---

quote:

---

"Through clever and constant application of propaganda people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise."
--Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, 1923

---

I would still appreciate if you would clarify what you consider to be reality and fantasy.

And on your point of internet and its abundance of conspiracy, remember this, for now, the internet is the voice of the people, the media and the government are not. They are the main source of influence on popular opinion and of what is thought to be fact or fiction. They are censored and controlled by corporate and government interests. The internet, for now, is not.

haha lolz looks like someone touched a sensitive topic

I would hope it would be sensitive, it's kind of important, yes no?

Well, obviously not important enough for some to provide a worth while response. But hey, whats new.

I've read quite a lot about the 'truth' of things. This post isn't stemming fom the comfy sofa of ignorance.

The point is that there are many ways to see the truth. And what conspiracists do, similar to mainstream media if you wish, is to do exactly this...forcefeed stuff until the people weave it into narrow tracks of vision (like the Illumanti controls most things). And the media do what Government wishes (i.e. label everything with democracy or good old 'family values'.

To convince people of an argument you, yourself present the facts necessary. And the facts found will, ironically, be the facts you are looking for. The problem with all this 'open-mindenedness' stuff being flung arond is that what this really means to those who read it is 'the mainstream is evil'.

Since books like Chariots of the Gods, Holy Blood, Holy Grail, and from Hipppy movements also, distrust has started to mount from intelligent people about what they are receving. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they are not. What I'm seeing here is belief that they are right. Its what I see as intelligent snobishness and not necessarily wisdom. People awho read the Da Vinci code often take it as fact. Its due to human curiosity of the mysterious and want for something new and different.

See, as with David Icke, what hapens is that the proponents see themselves as superior forms of knowledge and the sheep annoy them. But the sheep keep away because they live with all the other sheep, the majority, the 'real world' in which we live. I don't go and have dinners with people like George Bush everyday, do you?

When I referred to George Orwell he said something like in a time of mass conceit telling the truth is a daring and revolutionary act.

Yes, but George Orwell lived in a time where the interent, as you correctly asert was not available for people to learn alternative points of view. Nowadays we do, so the minority of people who know the truth is stretching towards more people. The conspiracy theoists, or proponents of truth if they are right, actually are not that few. Many people actually know that 9/11 might be a conspiracy now, for example.

I'm glad that people are questioning, I'm glad that people are seeing things in fresh new ways. I'm glad that if 1984 is correct we are going some way to stopping what might be tyrrany. Just keep in mind the possibility that thera re a lot of other nations in this world and with intent to become greater, but by treading over others in the process. The third world, is called the third world because it really is less developed. It does not mean of course that they are less valid, just merely less educated. To understand things deeply you have to understand human nature.

A document on the Cuban Missiles strike in the 60s against Fidel Castro was released that stated categorically the USA staged Cubas attack. The USA instigated it. But, we stil do not know why. To take things on factual truths without knowing the real meaning is the problem.


See, what great leaders do is learn and learn and learn some more, whilst not forgetting their intentions. Best leaders want everyone to be living in peace but recognise there is 'evil' ou there that must be defended against due to current situations. They harbour truths so people dont have to bear them so they can live happily, if in ignorance. You may or may not understand this. But its what happened in Roman Times, perhaps Greek and its happened since, and theres a good reason: some knowledge can be harmful and send people into depression.

I hear the word sheep all the time. Einstein said:

'In order to be an immaculate member of a flock of sheep, one above all, has to be a sheep onself'.

Also, I remember a saying that might not be true, but holds underneath a higher truth 'the reaction you get from something is the meaning that was intended'. So on my part, I'm an agent of being human myself.

quote:

---

A document on the Cuban Missiles strike in the 60s against Fidel Castro was released that stated categorically the USA staged Cubas attack. The USA instigated it. But, we stil do not know why.

---

Are you sure we don't know? Its usually because of threats of resource nationalization by communist governments(oil, natural gas, etc.), drug trafficking (in terms of stopping it or "nationalizing" those profits as well, taking the profits from the selective american and world government corporate and private conglomerative member made drug cartels. That and military presence.

quote:

---

To take things on factual truths without knowing the real meaning is the problem.

---

Thats why things like evidence and such reports are so handy, especially military and cia plans that spell everything out. Though their getting better about their ambiguity and strengthening National Security restrictions and blocking freedom of information acts.

Your right that not having the information we need available and honest is a problem. Its why we need to change this attitude of apathy towards these secretive and propagandist government representatives that feel the need to spy on everyone else.

If ever any spying is needed to be done in one's country, it first needs to be within the dark corners of the government, not the average or more likely dissident citizen's private thoughts and opinions.

We aren't the ones with access to the button, they are.

We aren't the ones sending armies to invade other countries, they are.

And our depression does not come from bad news, but fear, fear of reprecussions, guilt, guilt of letting it happen, and more often than not, much depression comes from the effects such allowed tyranny, financial and economic crisis, loss of freedom and dignity, enslavement.

And what we need to get a better notion of its reality and commonality is the eventual genocide.

You mention such works as 1984 and Brave New World, well, apparently Huxley, if I'm remembering correctly said that his was true based on family members in the UN and more were practitioners of the genocidal eugenics process and system so common in that period especiall, but that it was based on them and their actual intended plans for a one world government and all that jazz that everybody loves to dismiss.

Even though that is exactly the point our "world wars" and "empires" from today to the dawn of man.

Things like, racism, religionism, classism. People willing to fight to the death to claim that their ruling methods, lives, and beliefs are more true and important than those of others. And to further fight for ultimate control and power over others.

We seem to forget that the idea of a true democracy is both rare (if ever to have truly existed), and generally a myth in the sense that even in America we have always had a constitutionally based republic and been lead primarily by the aristocrats and heirs of wealth and power in our society, just like most others.

I mention this because when I discuss this topic people act shocked at the thought of active attempts of tyranny from within our own government, from outside, and often in a attempt of a world government.

Even though we have a united nations council that has an army and access to coalition armies that are deployed in numerous violent engadgements at any given time.

Corporations even now openly hire mercenary armies and recieve military support. And this does not equate to any sweeping notion of this being all innocent nation building and construction efforts. No this returns to the area of natural gas, oil, military presence, and drugs, and the all important propaganda, protecting embedded troops while blowing up independent or claimed dissedent or enemy media.

For those who AREN'T aware, we need to get over this notion that one world government conspiracies are too big.

When we live in a world where we can start naming world corporations like haliburtion (which covers all their subsidiaries such as halibution's kellogs brown and root), McDonalds. Wal-Mart, Pepsi/Coke who own their respective collections of fast foods and brand name chains that pyramid up to these handful of names. Company names whose leadership names start to mirror those of world banks, governments, world governments (UN, league of nations), policy, and military leadership names and their close associates and business partners, its actually long since become a problem.

This idea of diversity is masking oligopolies, oligopolies are intentional loophole tools that allow tyrannical military industrial complexes capable of forming one world governments. Thats the basic idea of a pyramid scheme, its not some secret conspiracy, its just hidden in plain sight due to ignorance, propaganda/lies, apathy, laziness, intentional chemical biological labotomies, and the classics, opression, denial, and fear/terror.

See, they could do this nicely and actually create freedom and equality, but they don't, because of reasons people deny, racism, religionism, superstition, ablsolute powerfulness corrupting absolutely.

Because it always seems to end with attempts at genocides, world hegemony, defeating claimed evils and protecting claimed morals by blowing up people, usually mostly innocent people.

quote:

---

See, what great leaders do is learn and learn and learn some more, whilst not forgetting their intentions.

---

Right, we designed and defend our countries purpose of providing freedom, transparency, with the explicit point of avoiding any form of tyranny, religious, government, ideological, what have you.

We don't currently have that, and WE need to remember these intentions because WE are obligated to act when the government has become corrupt, because no there is no one left otherwise. The government watches over us, and we are supposed to watch over it. And truly we are actually supposed to be one and the same anyway.

quote:

---

Just keep in mind the possibility that thera re a lot of other nations in this world and with intent to become greater, but by treading over others in the process.

---

So that makes it ok for us to?

I am with you leftwood.

heyjme1, I read the entire posting and before I write any opinion of my own I would like to know what you meant by "the real world as a primary source"?

First of all, seeking truth is a good thing! The more the word 'truth' is understood, the more fruitful it becomes though...

Lets just stand back a minute. Assuming people are hierachial by nature, which, by nature we are (take a look of school kids) then whats the problem with having a hierachy in democracy. Democracy doesn't work. People are different.

If one apple and another apple makes two apples, but we had a vote in which everyone said there were three apples, who is right?

Politics sucks. It always has it always will. But we still need to know why. Money is a finite source. Therefore some will have more, some less.

Communism in its essence didn't work because in order for human to act humanely, we need a little law an order.

Perhaps governments are all working together at the highest level but oppose one another more at different horizontals and heights. If so, there is still little we can do. Because they'll just hammer harder if its true to start with. That's a catch 22. Maybe with enough people believing, yes, maybe. But put a bullet to someones head and they soon shut up.


The problem is people are startying to learn the alternatives, the faults without even knowing what the original story was in the first place. Its just assumed the Illumanti wanted to control people so they put mind controls out there, or put flouride in our water, or aspartame in our drinks, or monitor us through the internet, or watch us from outer space, or put aliens amongst us who control us, or...the list gopes on.

I agree that some things are bad for us. Like the reasons for going to war, etc. But if you want people to listen and not think your just a plain idiot or whacko, then just state why its bad for you. For example, with aspartame there's no need to state why presidents were hired, bosses sacked, money swapping hands. Just say there's evidence that pilots suffer from drinking it. State the harmful effects without adding its yet another Illumanti plot to take over the world.

Think about the human condition a bit more, and its easier to get heard. As for what actually caused something, its very difficult to know unless you are sure. So, for me personally, I dont believe in the Illumanti. For sure I'm sure there are powerful people out there with huge business interests. But if you think about this, in principle its no different to when a son takes over his father's business. Sure we may be living a lie, but we don't know the primary intent behind it all. If you assume that the worst is going to happen, unless you are damn positive, then you'll just stab yourself in the foot. Think of what the Eastern countries would be like if they ruled the world. Think of what Sudaam would be like if he ruled the world. Actually, thinking it through, without competition, he'd more likely be nice. Strange, but I reckon true.

The more I live, the more I realise you look after your own. I don't like it, but it does work. There are limits we mustimpose on ourselves. Anyone who tells you different is essentially true-but only if you are already perfect. I used to believe there were no bnarriers. I stil believe they are illusional but I recognise that some really don't and its worse in some cases to tell what you see as 'truth'.

Whats "the real world as a primary source"?

When you talk to people face to face. Watch birds, have sex, exercise, listen to music. Enjoy life-stop thinking everything is doom and gloom.

Ok... Is it just me or is it every time Jme1 posts anything It makes no sense or has very little or zero relevance what so ever? I'm srry but I just wasted a good 15 minutes reading all of that. It gets quite annoying.

quote:

---

Lets just stand back a minute. Assuming people are hierachial by nature, which, by nature we are (take a look of school kids) then whats the problem with having a hierachy in democracy. Democracy doesn't work. People are different.

---

The problem is not hierarchy, its abuse of power, torture, war, murder, rape, drugging, and genocide. Its about people accepting a government that lies so they can't know the truth while accepting an endless global war because they are scared and angry.

Its about humanity, morality, common sense, and survival.

You speak as though we have to know what the truth is to take any action. The problem you are going to get with this mentality is that the truth is being hijacked by national security, and we will never be allowed to know.

The best hope we have is of leaked information from insiders, whistleblowers, documents, history, and education in these things.

When members of the FBI are sueing Bush for blocking Al-Qaida and Bin Laden investigations, we need to know their claims and evidence. But they are being gagged by national security. The information is usually let out at some point though, often when they are first bringing it up. And so it is out there, but people's reactive response to such conspiracy keep them from looking or believing, even in the possibility.

quote:

---

Politics sucks. It always has it always will.

---

Politics sucks a lot less when transparency exists, lies and corruption don't complicate the delicacies of general efforts for survival and progress nearly as badly.

Its a lot better when we have people trained to investigate somewhat uneccessarily complicated legislative process, while being a source of media that is not controlled by interests that stand to lose profit from such investigation.

These are things that we actually made laws to prevent, those laws have been broken and now altered.

Is it or is it not a fact that we are currently involved in a proclaimed, generational, hundred years, endless war of our own creation?

Does that not equal forced global hegemony, is that not what Hitler did?

This isn't rocket science. He claimed he was doing god's work and the right thing too.

quote:

---

Money is a finite source. Therefore some will have more, some less.

---

No, its not. Money is a fabricated substance, a tool to rate the trade worth of goods, services, and resources.

It happens to be a powerful tool, and a dangerous weapon if in the wrong hands. Our money creation and distribution is controlled by private interests. The Federal Reserve bank has nothing to do with the federal government, accept its power over it.

Those in control of money creation and distribution have power over every thing reliant upon fiat currency. Coupled with our current credit based system of banking, money creation, and military industrial/government corporate interests all coming together under a shrinking number of individuals, create a great imbalance of power and checks and balance systems.

Yes, as we have noted, we never had a democracy, we had a democratic republic designed with checks and balances built in to prevent Tyranny of any kind.

But we are losing that to a fascist authoritarian plutocracy. Fascism is little more than a government and corporate merger.

Which leads to this point.

quote:

---

Communism in its essence didn't work because in order for human to act humanely, we need a little law an order

---

No, that is completely incorrect. What communist governments do you know of that do not enforce a governmental and often military police state? Communism is economy controlled by a one party government, also known as a fascist dictatorship.

quote:

---

Perhaps governments are all working together at the highest level but oppose one another more at different horizontals and heights. If so, there is still little we can do.

---

We are the majority, and though these laws are being changed, we were even given the moral and legal obligations and avenues to stand up to resistance of majority's rule. The government and military are made up of human beings being lied to as well, nothing is all corrupt, this is fixable.

As citizens we simply need to stop letting ourselves be lied to, because we seek the truth so we can act right?

quote:

---

If so, there is still little we can do. Because they'll just hammer harder if its true to start with.

---

We are all going to die, how we live is what matters.

quote:

---

Because they'll just hammer harder if its true to start with. That's a catch 22. Maybe with enough people believing, yes, maybe. But put a bullet to someones head and they soon shut up.

---

That goes both ways. Its why we were meant to protect our right to bear arms.

Right now in China a police state is mowing down people who resist their homes and farms being taken. (while we simultaneously pass Eminent Domain laws, remember that debate?) They are running into machine guns with hoes and shovels, I've seen footage.

They are imprisoning political dissenters and harvesting organs, torturing and killing. We are arresting dissenters here to defend their honor. We are imprisoning record numbers at record rates. We have sold China our production jobs, sending droves of workers instantly into poverty.

We are leaving borders open during a time of war, allowing millions of illegal immagrants to come to our country and be exploited at the cost of our own jobs and rates of pay and benefits. While we have a hushed drug war on our border forcing states to call for a state of emergency (which allows for martial law) due to violence by the mexican army, american controlled mexican militants and drug runners etc.

There are also mexican radicals and extremists coming across that specifically want to reclaim all land lost in Mexican American wars. That is a national security threat that is not being addressed, media blackouts and or spin, government legislation leaning towards total amnesty without reprecussions to abusive and negligent business and government actions.

In a time when we are cracking down on dissent, free speach, and implementing domestic spying. That could all be pulled from any Nazi manifesto, Communist Russia or China, any of it.

quote:

---

The problem is people are startying to learn the alternatives, the faults without even knowing what the original story was in the first place.

---

This is true, but its a problem because they are being lied to and made ignorant to the truth.

quote:

---

Its just assumed the Illumanti wanted to control people so they put mind controls out there, or put flouride in our water, or aspartame in our drinks, or monitor us through the internet...

---

Illuminati assertions are irrelevant to the fact of the existance these particular documented occurances.

quote:

---

I agree that some things are bad for us. Like the reasons for going to war, etc. But if you want people to listen and not think your just a plain idiot or whacko, then just state why its bad for you.

---

That's been done, people forget, deny, ignore, become lethargic and apathetic, and want to know why its happening, and you end up spinning in circles.

At some point you have to look towards those answers, the sources, their intentions. What happens once you learn fluoride is bad, you sound like and idiot and a whacko. It doesn't matter if you associate it to intentional conspiracy or not. Germany trying to take over the world and implementing fluoride water treatment tactics to subdue, sterilize, and dumb down prisoners with plans to use it as chemical/biological warfare is a government conspiracy, I'm sorry. The fact that Bush's grandfather Prescott while a US senator worked with and for Nazi's and tried even to, with the Dupont Family and others, assassinate our president, overthrow our government, and institute a fascist dictatorship modeled after Hitler's, as discovered by a whistle blowing and highly decorated Military General Smedley Butler and the resultant Congressional investigation, is neither my fault nor reason to consider me idiotic or whacko.

Nor is the fact that W. is being sued by members of the FBI for blocking investigations into his families known business partners, Bin Laudens and Saudi Royal family, in the wake of 9/11 while evidence of terrorist funding, CIA ties (like Osama himself, let alone the Bushes or the Nazi origins of the OSS and CIA).

Our covert aiding and creations of foreign terrorist groups patsied for our terrorist ways are not my fault nor my creation. From Al-Qaida to the Taliban, Saddam to Pinochet, this was not me nor information from me, but from insider whistleblowers. I can't help that you and others have to dismiss and deny the frightening reality of how we act in the world. That you feel because its not what you see outside your front door, yet, than it just can't be.

All while hypocritically believing just that story about any other country or power deemed enemy of the state.

I could vomit every time I hear such things.

Who is the one world super power known today, who is the one starting an endless global war (World War III or IV counting the cold war), who held drills before and on the very day of 9/11 of exact 9/11 events and others and lied about it in famous speaches denoting no one could have imaged planes as weapons. Where did the Anthrax come from that "attacked and terrorized" our media and senate?

And you are right, this list doesn't ever end, we keep adding to it every day, we have to rediscover history to get through all the lies. We blame and label others for disrupting our piece of mind by simply relaying information.

I don't care what people call the groups of people that do or don't work fully together, or what they call themselves. I just hear we are torturing, killing, warring, creating laws ensuring the rights of corporations and government centralized power while diminishing those of the citizens. That our foriegn policies are genocidal and empirical.

And it just isn't enough to say, "Hey, thats bad", you have to also tell those who are doing it to stop.

quote:

---

Think about the human condition a bit more, and its easier to get heard. As for what actually caused something, its very difficult to know unless you are sure.

---

I'm sure that corroborated evidence of claims of insider whistleblowers have determined that elements within our government are commiting global atrocities and destroying worldwide national soveriengty under the cloaks of righteouness, piety, justice, freedom, patriotism, democracy, secrecy, and National Security.

I've first hand witnessed televised speaches of our government leaders saying we have begun a generational world war.

quote:

---

So, for me personally, I dont believe in the Illumanti.

---

Doesn't matter, global organized crimes are being commited, regardless of what names groups go by.

quote:

---

For sure I'm sure there are powerful people out there with huge business interests. But if you think about this, in principle its no different to when a son takes over his father's business.

---

No. Taking over a business is legal, taking over a corrupt business and allowing it to continue, or corrupting a business is criminal.

There is quite a difference.

quote:

---

Sure we may be living a lie, but we don't know the primary intent behind it all.

---

History would tell us that some will simply stop at nothing to dominate everything. And that those who are that meglomanical are generally inhumane and willing to bypass morality and ethics for unbalanced power.

This is no different than any other world domination scheme other than they have gotten smarter about information and opinion control.

quote:

---

Think of what the Eastern countries would be like if they ruled the world. Think of what Sudaam would be like if he ruled the world.

---

Your talking about countries who's policies are ignored and accepted by the only world super powers who co-opt them through business negotiations or else dominate them by military force.

When we invade foreign countries, again, its usually because they are trying to nationalize their resources while rejecting foreign military presence in attempt to stand up to world corruption.

This is from the mouths of CIA agents, DEA, FBI, Senator's, Congressmen, you name it.

Quit getting stuck on Illumaniti and stick to the facts and insider information. Listen to all sides, but remember who has the power, authority, motivation to get away with lying to the world, its not the whistleblowers, especially not anymore, Bush has hacked away at whistleblower protection rights, while of course setting records for medals, awards, and promotion to individuals who are guilty of the very least criminal negligence, but more evidence points towards collusion, as long as they tow the line.

I didn't drape assholes with medals after 9/11 for fucking up and or commiting crimes, while firing and gagging whistleblowers.

quote:

---

There are limits we mustimpose on ourselves.

---

Yes, as well as on our governments, or those who would harm others, which too often turn out to be one in the same.

quote:

---

Whats "the real world as a primary source"?

When you talk to people face to face. Watch birds, have sex, exercise, listen to music. Enjoy life-stop thinking everything is doom and gloom.

---

Go to Iraq, Darfur, China, South Africa, you name it. We've been involved in so many covert and overt wars, revolutions, again, you name it.

Go to big industrial American cities where Production plants galore are shut down or shipped to China, where ILLEGAL immagrant labor has driven down wages and taken jobs and careers from under Americans.

Look at the legislation and enforcement tactis and policies that are pushing for this, their sources, the abused and reported on loopholes, look at who is gaining power and profits from these acts, while always calling for more.

quote:

---

That goes both ways. Its why we were meant to protect our right to bear arms.

Right now in China a police state is mowing down people who resist their homes and farms being taken. (while we simultaneously pass Eminent Domain laws, remember that debate?) They are running into machine guns with hoes and shovels, I've seen footage.

---

"The Secret Behind China's Economy"

http://www.captaincynic.com/thread/64561/china_our_new_best_friend.htma >

you guys eat doo doo

'The problem is not hierarchy, its abuse of power, torture, war, murder, rape, drugging, and genocide. Its about people accepting a government that lies so they can't know the truth while accepting an endless global war because they are scared and angry.'

What is it that they are trying to protect? If there was an ancient advanced civilisation such as Atlantis, or other countries, why is it that they are not in existance today? There will be two things: 1. Attack from another group or 2. A natural disaster. If it was 2, you need valuable science. To get valuable science you need great thinkers educated to be able to communicate to utilise. If it is 1 then you need to operate via a course of defense. And playing sports, I know for a fact the best defence is attack: whenever there is competetion the attacking force normally wins. Remember there are 2 sides to this. And believe me, the American side is more advanced. However, quite rightly it needs to be kept in check for things like rape, murder, etc. because these are wrong and I can't see a valuable point to them. Indeed, you have a point here that highlights the barbaric nature of governments: this in itself is a bad thing. I'd just like to ask about the reference to rape, etc. are you referring to Guantanomo Bay here? Remember the people wroking there have to be convinced that these are the most evil people to justify being able to tirture them. Now, if we look past the trees here a bit, the other way of looking at this is 'in the mentality' that in order to protect against something which you wish to be preserved, you have to use fear to keep it that way. This is the very reason that law is introduced; to keep law and ORDER. No people are free; maybe this is what some fight for, true freedom, but true freedom comes at the cost of having a shorter life. And it is one of the natural instincts animals and humans have to preserve their own life.

Information should be leaked, and this is a good thing. However, factual information gathered together can be a bad thing. If you do not know for what aims it is being done, its hard to understand the information. You can then get a picture that is precise, but isn't necessarily accurate.

But my point is why are these being done? Is it to silence groups of people? And which people do they silence? To protect something valuable you need to have a guardian of lies about it. Remember: some understand, some don't understand, some understand if given enough encouragement. We only need look at how the Bible is misinterpreted to understand this.



'Politics sucks a lot less when transparency exists, lies and corruption don't complicate the delicacies of general efforts for survival and progress nearly as badly.

Its a lot better when we have people trained to investigate somewhat uneccessarily complicated legislative process, while being a source of media that is not controlled by interests that stand to lose profit from such investigation.

These are things that we actually made laws to prevent, those laws have been broken and now altered.

Is it or is it not a fact that we are currently involved in a proclaimed, generational, hundred years, endless war of our own creation?

Does that not equal forced global hegemony, is that not what Hitler did?

This isn't rocket science. He claimed he was doing god's work and the right thing too.'

Agreed that some laws are being changed that shouldn't be. Agreed that people should 'whistleblow'. That's how we ensure things aren't too one-sided.

We are currently involved in an endless war. Look at packs of lions: they are continuously fighting other groups of lions. Why: to fight for food resources and sexual needs to preserve their own. This is the animalistic nature of the highest of the top where differences occur because of fighting for finite things. Until all begin to think the same then unity cannot come about. Religion, to me, essentially preaches 'out of many cometh one'. Think on this. You can view this as hegonomy or you can view it as evolution. Either way its very hard to argue either way.


quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Communism in its essence didn't work because in order for human to act humanely, we need a little law an order
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------



'No, that is completely incorrect. What communist governments do you know of that do not enforce a governmental and often 'military police state? Communism is economy controlled by a one party government, also known as a fascist dictatorship.'

In its 'essence' (i.e. Marxism) communism was never tried because it was realised that with the current mindset of people we would actually devolve to evolve again. Example: If you took away the controlled government in Iraq, there would be riots until eventually one faction took over and I bet a dictatorship would happen again.


quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Money is a finite source. Therefore some will have more, some less.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------



'No, its not. Money is a fabricated substance, a tool to rate the trade worth of goods, services, and resources.

It happens to be a powerful tool, and a dangerous weapon if in the wrong hands. Our money creation and distribution is controlled by private interests. The Federal Reserve bank has nothing to do with the federal government, accept its power over it.'

Money is a token of that represents finite things. Money is also a good thing in the right hands. Everything is ultimately private interest-just how far does the private interest go? If the Federal Bank is above the Federal Goverment..what is it it is trying to protect?



quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
The problem is people are startying to learn the alternatives, the faults without even knowing what the original story was in the first place.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------



'This is true, but its a problem because they are being lied to and made ignorant to the truth.'

Why did the Americans join into World war Two. Why did the government lie to the people? There's good evidence to show Pearl Harbour was know to start with. In fact, isn't it a good thing we have the information available like that the attack on Cuba by the Americans was an inside job? Would this happen in Iraq?


quo

quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
For sure I'm sure there are powerful people out there with huge business interests. But if you think about this, in principle its no different to when a son takes over his father's business.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------



'No. Taking over a business is legal, taking over a corrupt business and allowing it to continue, or corrupting a business is criminal.

There is quite a difference.'

You think that most son's and father's act completely legitamately and act within the law to get a business? You dont think they tax evade or do sneaky little tricks? The essence of business if you se it like this is coruption. I prefer to look at it as just animals fighting over their meat.

te:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Think about the human condition a bit more, and its easier to get heard. As for what actually caused something, its very difficult to know unless you are sure.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------



'I'm sure that corroborated evidence of claims of insider whistleblowers have determined that elements within our government are commiting global atrocities and destroying worldwide national soveriengty under the cloaks of righteouness, piety, justice, freedom, patriotism, democracy, secrecy, and National Security.

I've first hand witnessed televised speaches of our government leaders saying we have begun a generational world war.


We are always having wars.
Whats wrong with ignorance and happiness? Its used by those who are not ignorant and it pisses off those others who aren't ignorant.

quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Sure we may be living a lie, but we don't know the primary intent behind it all.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------



History would tell us that some will simply stop at nothing to dominate everything. And that those who are that meglomanical are generally inhumane and willing to bypass morality and ethics for unbalanced power.

This is no different than any other world domination scheme other than they have gotten smarter about information and opinion control.

Maybe the best one will do it?

The problem to all this if you think about it is hippocracy. I say one thing and do another-we are all guilty. We've got a way to go yet. Its not all doom and gloom-unless you think the laws of nature are.


We need more people like you. Just keep in mind that information when assimilated together and assumed as fact is tenuous at best. Dont let this stop you though.