What About Eugenics?

What do you think of eugenics? Is it good? Is it bad? Is it evil? Does it consist of wrong ideologies? Racial ideas? Comon, what do you think about it?

Its racism.

And its slightly retarded due to the fact that it attempts to utterly stagnate the gene pool. Not to mention that as much as a race would like to proclaim purity, such a thing is highly unlikely. Especially since these are generally elite family blood lines who have owned slaves and traveled the world both spreading their seed and incorporating that of other races.

I agree with you, but you can't deny that the procedures can be done correctly with now flaws. Especially with gene therapy techniques that will make it much easier, right?

What can be done, a superior white race? That is the goal of eugenics. And sure, I'm guessing it could be done.

Yes, it can be done. But nowadays, this is not the real purpose. The real purpose is to make the human race suffer fewer diseases, regulate genetic abnormalities, retarded people and mutations. And in my opinion that is not a bad thing.

one question
do u find urself superior to any person. if u find it reasonable or even of mere logic to create a new breed of race try creating one.(if u can)
if u can't just just drop the attitude and be more interested in the true core of a human structure.the body is just an executional instrument that man uses to move, reproduce and have a living activity. but the true core of a human is the soul the driving force which controls the entire human body.
so wen u talk about eugenics and the thought of erasing different races just try changing the soul first and then alter the body.
many conditions and circumstances determine the bodily structure.

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But nowadays, this is not the real purpose.

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Maybe not for you and or a certain group of ideologist doctors. But that is the purpose of eugenics, race cannot be excluded. That would be another science all together. And I'd be wary of any group touting eugenics as non racial as they are either ignorant, or lying to promote their not so publicized agenda.

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The real purpose is to make the human race suffer fewer diseases, regulate genetic abnormalities, retarded people and mutations. And in my opinion that is not a bad thing.

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Trying to end disease and dibilitating abnormalities is a good thing. Except for the fact that naturally born disease is a means of natural population control.

Somewhere close to the majority of natural disease causes have been affectively contained.

If you really want to change such things these days, you have more to worry about in terms of overt and covert biological warfare, gene manipulated foods, additives, preservatives, pesticides, McDonalds, and generally bad diets.

Just as bad are intentionally contaminated vaccines. Most containing heavy metal compounds such as Murcury at doses 250 times the safe limit.

And though many will laugh at you, you might want to look into conflicting doctor's analysis of flouride known to cause brittle bone disease and link to cancer, tested by Nazi's as a useful tool to cause people to become docile and servile, and no, I'm not making this up.

And when you get to the bottom of some of these synthetic, manipulated, manufatured and mass used products, you find that people like Donald Rumsfeld, recognize that name? US Secretary of Defense I think, who was or still is one of the people heading a company that manufactured artificial sweeteners.

No biggie right, except for the specific additive asperthame (sp), which has been found to be a very direct link to cancer and whatever else, I can't keep up with all the details, there is just too much unbelievable crap going on.

And besides the fact that actual eugenics is still in practice on a large scale by people in power, Vain had an excellent point that people need to be more aware of.

The best medicine for humans lies in our own bodies and minds. All medicine is tested against placebos, and usually lose. Hopefully you are aware of what a placebo is, as far too many are not, and more importantly hopefully you and others will try to learn the true significance of it and try harnessing that rather than focusing on any other form of medicine first.

A placebo is a trick. Generally a sugar pill disguised as medicine. People heal and feel better when they believe they are taking something that will fix them. Its so powerful that it has even been tested and proven to work in cases of physical surgery.

This is even the concept behind Jesus' and others "faith" healings. Its why faith healings do exist.

And if people would embrace their own body and mind's ability to heal over outside medicine, we would probably be farther along in your goal of ending unnecessary disease. Though it is quite probable that the crap in our food damages our facilities enough to subvert our own healing abilities.

The mutations can probably only be fought by either genetic alteration or actually cleaning up the environment and ending the reign of corporate crooks who dump massive, chemical, biological, and even radioactive waste everywhere, as well as all the food tampering and intake of "medicines" and chemicals mentioned above.

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so when u talk about eugenics and the thought of erasing different races just try changing the soul first and then alter the body.

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As I have "already" mentioned, this is not the purpose, and what is that? Changing the soul first and then alter the body? Do you know even what is a soul to talk about it? Do you know what does it consist of? Does it even exist from the beginning? What you meant is the essence of a person, what is inside and what you feel. And tell you what? All of your feelings, interactions, and replies to whatever stimulus are a result of the sequence of your genes not for anything else as what you think. I don't want to elaborate it, but try to understand that your personality is stored in you brain cells according to the proteins inside, and guess what? Your genes form these proteins! Which makes the alteration of any personality possible in the stage of an early embryo and creating him according to what you want. Another thing, creating a race is not impossible once you have the complete Human Genome available. Once you do it, nothing will be impossible.

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Trying to end disease and debilitating abnormalities is a good thing. Except for the fact that naturally born disease is a means of natural population control.

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What??? A "natural population control" let me just give you a very delicate piece of information. This is the year 2006, where the natural population controls are stuff that ended from like a gazillion years ago. Hello, we are not Kuala's or anything else. This rule applies to "non-humans" e.g. anything else but humans. You know why? Because we have a more developed brain that allows us to survive better that any other creature. A proof? You exist. This page might make a more vivid idea more than what you think:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population#Rate_of_population_increas
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With modern technology there is nothing of what you say (starting from the 1920s) I think. So, if they are going to live, well at least they should live with lesser diseases and lesser suffering, and some benefit to the world. A better proof? The world's population increased from 2 billion in 1927 to 6 billion in 1999. That would mean that the world population increased by 4 BILLION in just 72 years Whoa...

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The best medicine for humans lies in our own bodies and minds.

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Yes, you are right and I agree with you. And I know what is a placebo, but can you treat AIDS for an example with placebos?? The only use for a placebo is to raise the spirit of a patient psychologically in order to improve his condition. However, there is not a single medication on the planet that would EVER be able to remove genetic abnormalities, that is simply impossible. A gene therapy is the only thing that will do, and until today gene therapy is not proven to be pretty reliable and many side effects are caused by it.

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And I'd be wary of any group touting eugenics as non racial as they are either ignorant, or lying to promote their not so publicized agenda.

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They are lying to promote their not so publicized agenda huh? I have never seen anyone who believes in the conspiracy theory as you in my entire life. Try to get it out of your brain from time to time, life is more positive that what you think, truly. All that carcinogenic stuff that you're talking about are true, I know, but why did you have to mention them here, It's not necessary, really. And in my opinion it is not very important to mention these stuff regarding that topic, it's not very necessary, really.

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As I have "already" mentioned, this is not the purpose

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Regardless of what you have already mentioned, that is a purpose of it, its just not the only purpose. Your denial of it changes nothing but your understanding of it.

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What??? A "natural population control" let me just give you a very delicate piece of information. This is the year 2006, where the natural population controls are stuff that ended from like a gazillion years ago.

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First off, did I not say that most natural diseases have been contained or controlled? Yes I did. The point you missed that I was making was that its not necessarily a good thing that natural population control has been contained.

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Hello, we are not Kuala's or anything else. This rule applies to "non-humans" e.g. anything else but humans.

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What rule?

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You know why? Because we have a more developed brain that allows us to survive better that any other creature. A proof? You exist.

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So your rule that does not apply to humans is what, natural population control, yes?

A couple of things, one, there are plenty of creatures who have survived as well with or without brains at all. Including the sources of many of the mentioned forms of natural population control, viruses, disease, etc. Lest you forget that many of these are living organisms.

Proof, germs, viruses, bacteria that become immune to anti-biotics creating "super viruses and bacteria", creatures such as crockodiles surviving dinosaur extinction etc. etc.

This is the year 2006, and people are more afraid of uncrontrollable disease spread than ever, bird flu, mad cow, sars, aids, etc. etc.

Another point is that most of the natural forms of human population control don't even affect other species to begin with.

And the number one source of human population control, after natural death (because it obviously can't keep up) is still alive, well, and currently spreading like wildfire.

And that would of course be human on human violence and malice. Which is a primary point that will later be used in this post as a rebuttal to your desires of blissful ignorance.

Ok, I'm going to official ask you to start naming things you are abstractly referrencing due to the fact that there are multiple points of subject matter being noted.

Again, if you mean population controlling diseases and what not, you are wrong, they obviously still exist, if you mean people who practice eugenics as a means of attempted racial superiority you are also sadly mistaken. If you mean something else all together please attempt some clarification.

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So, if they are going to live, well at least they should live with lesser diseases and lesser suffering, and some benefit to the world. A better proof? The world's population increased from 2 billion in 1927 to 6 billion in 1999. That would mean that the world population increased by 4 BILLION in just 72 years Whoa...

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Better proof of what, jesus man. Of the non existance of natural population control, no, this would be the basic non existance of practicing or effective birth control. The diseases, war, violence, and even natural death are still hard at work trying to cull the population. We just breed like freakin rabbits.

And FYI, overpopulation will only cause more disease (natural and man made), war, and violence, as well as reduced quality of life.

Resources which fuel the science and research you are touting is diminishing, and rapidly. And sadly there may already exist scientific breakthroughs to remedy that situation, but a factor you dismiss as so many do may be at fault, but you will continue to deny it, even if found true perhaps.

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However, there is not a single medication on the planet that would EVER be able to remove genetic abnormalities, that is simply impossible. A gene therapy is the only thing that will do, and until today gene therapy is not proven to be pretty reliable and many side effects are caused by it.

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This is where it might be a good idea to take some time start thinking about some history, the side of things you are trying to ignore.

Like the case with any medicine or attempted solution to a problem, there is only one sure way to properly "cure" something, and that is not by treating symptoms, but finding the source.

And though some sources will be, seem, OR BEGIN as perfectly natural, I guarantee you many will end up as created, manipulated, and or abused in some fashion by human hands, intentionally or otherwise.

Again heading towards a point on this subject that you seem both offended by and somewhat in denial of.

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However, there is not a single medication on the planet that would EVER be able to remove genetic abnormalities, that is simply impossible

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Actually no. By definition gene therapy is a form of medicine. And there could indeed be pills "medication" that contain active ingredients that could actually start the chain reaction of creating, reorganizing, genes, protiens, cells, etc. Regardless of how hard it would be to figure out, imagine, or produce currently.

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They are lying to promote their not so publicized agenda huh?

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No, well not necessarily, I mistakenly was focused on one aspect of eugenics, that unfortunately exists even to this day, and wrecklessly and incorrectly over generalized due to lacking information, to this I concede and apologize.

Regardless of innappropriate over generalizations, my points on the subject of eugenics are both valid and important, my original overgeneralization can be corrected by asking you to be wary of those who do not acknowledge this history and to educate those with interest in the field.

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I have never seen anyone who believes in the conspiracy theory as you in my entire life.

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No conspiracy theory was mentioned. A part of the documented history of eugenics was mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

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Try to get it out of your brain from time to time, life is more positive that what you think, truly. All that carcinogenic stuff that you're talking about are true, I know, but why did you have to mention them here, It's not necessary, really.

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I see what you are saying, and perhaps I would have approached the thread differently under other circumstances. However I have to dissagree with you about its level of importance. Perhaps it does not need further mention but mention is warranted.

Get out of my brain yes, but sometimes people need to be made aware of the dark side of things, particularly when that dark side is showing itself in current real world events.

If you notice in the link, eugenics was politicized and incorporated into devastating ideologies that make headlines every day.

Not to mention other events that are intentionally kept secret.

If you do not think proven and declassified documentation of US Government programs of forced sterilization in pursuit of a twisted version of eugenics within many of our lifetimes, if its not happening in secrecy still at this moment, is important, then I think you are daft.

Do I think this should keep us from exploring and rejoycing in scientific achievement, hell no, I love watching fantasy become reality.

You simply have to understand, yes, I may need out of my head at times, but specifically Government conspiracy actuality is my current line of research, whereas yours may be the possitive side of eugenics.

And regardless of your possitive message that you know not enough people are familiar and educated with, perhaps even incorrectly reactive and bias, I know that there is important information that people are equally if not more so unaware of that they should be, of a unpleasant and dangerous reality of the intentions of some people who happen to have the power and resources to do very bad things, on a very big scale, and get away with it.

So oops on my part, but thanks for helping me educate as well.

So let me clarify once more in closing, eugenics is not racism. Eugenics is a science or method that includes all viable forms of intervention, manipulation, and control of the development and advancement of the human species and the individual to whatever chosen end.

Racism is a politically ideological aspect, and very powerful racists have used or abused eugenics to further their goals of racial domination.

As a result, evidence as found in the thread Did the government create AIDS?

http://www.captaincynic.com/thread/63097/did_the_government_create_aids.
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Aids itself is said to be proven without doubt, as a US Government (not that that means America was alone in such conquest or in this research) tool to reduce, primarily, the black population of America and the world.

And obviously that would mean certain memebers of the US Government. Which is always an important point in the elements of my research of the conspiracy aspect of these things.

Lets cut to the chase. Eugenics is the reversal of evolution. Eugenics is pseudoscience. Eugenics is based on a flawed understanding on the process and mechanisms of evolution. Implementing a eugenics program would very likely produce the same results as inbreeding. By selecting certain traits and touting them as 'superior' to all others and only allowing individuals possessing these traits to reproduce, you weaken the human race by reducing biodiversity.

More specifically, the reduction of gene flow. You have to understand that evolution occurs through two main processes- mutations and genetic recombination. Eugenics distorts this, and could consequently destroy human evolution. Natural selection is superior to eugenics in that it allows humans to adapt and evolve to changes in the environment. A simple example is; many people would automatically assume that being tall and muscular is an advantage to being short. However, in the event of a food shortage it is more advantageous to be short because you would not need to consume as much food to sustain yourself.

Eugenics involves using principles of genetics through selective breeding in the hope to "improve" humankind. However these principles clearly lack understanding of the mechanism of evolution.

Racism is a politically ideological aspect, and very powerful racists have used or abused eugenics to further their goals of racial domination.[quote]
eugenics has never interfered in racial domination.whta u r saying here contradicts what u have been saying right from the begining of ur thread.i don't think that the ku klux klan have used eugenics to strengthen their racial dominance.even hitler used eradication camps to overthrow jews but never used eugenics.even in physical life it is far from reality that eugenics could be implemented in any way like cloning it has resulted in total failure. eugenics is just an aspect of virtual reality it could never happen. you can't alter climates.

You apparently don't know how eugenics can be applied, its not just genetic manipulation of a laboratory nature.

Its breeding and sterilization, thats how it started. When racists picked up on it, they would breed for tall blonde blue eyed whites, while discouraging procreation, forcing sterilizing or even eradicating all others.

No one said eugenics "interfered" with racism, racists were practicing a politically bastardized form of eugenics as a tool.

And just because you are unaware of what Klan members did, does not mean anything. Its a fact that, among others, the US goverment illegally abducted and sterilized minority women, and I'd be willing to bet some money that some members implementing the program either dabbled in the Klan or shared many of their views. But they may have been more Nazi than Klan. Which are directly related anyway.

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First off, did I not say that most natural diseases have been contained or controlled? Yes I did. The point you missed that I was making was that it's not necessarily a good thing that natural population control has been contained.

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Then what you say is that the natural population control for human beings is a good thing and that people should die? Watch for an example an entire population dying with plague and stand still and do nothing? Wow...

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A couple of things, one, there are plenty of creatures who have survived as well with or without brains at all. Including the sources of many of the mentioned forms of natural population control, viruses, disease, etc. Lest you forget that many of these are living organisms

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Did you notice the word "survive better"? It means that humans were able to defy nature "to an extent", and became capable of being stronger than the other animals. However, what you've mentioned is not even called the ability to survive, it is called the "natural selection". This link might help, and you can just read the first paragraph to get the whole idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Selection

The idea is that the conditions were favorable for their existence, and that's how these creatures survived. The case is different with human beings, why? because they have a more developed brain, that's it. And I'm talking about nowadays, with technology everywhere, any event before it should not be put under this category and just to add to your info, were living in a sort of a "technological world"

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Proof, germs, viruses, bacteria that become immune to antibiotics creating "super viruses and bacteria", creatures such as crocodiles surviving dinosaur extinction etc. etc.

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Now that point had nothing to do with what you are saying. Actually you prove that the natural population control has no effect if it is taken from your point, since that all these organisms survived, right? And just to add to your info, the process of the formation of the "super viruses and bacteria" is way far more complicated than you could ever imagine. As a fact it concerns many factors. And one of them is the use of the antibiotics itself, as these antibiotics sometimes destroy and alter the bacterium's/virus's DNA to make many new mutations. Sometimes, these mutations are effective and sometimes they are defective, that plus MANY other things share in the formation of these bacteria and viruses. So, when talking about the unicellular world, try to understand that they have the highest rate of mutations and exposure to natural selection. This is completely different from that multicellular world of ours, so in this point, you are wrong.
And about those disease that the whole world is afraid of, some of them can be treated "like SARS", and some of them are under research, and most of them can be treated in early stages. And a proof that SARS can be treated is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_Acute_Respiratory_Syndrome#Treatment

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Another point is that most of the natural forms of human population control don't even affect other species to begin with.

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I didn't get that point, really. Please elaborate.

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And the number one source of human population control, after natural death (because it obviously can't keep up) is still alive, well, and currently spreading like wildfire.
And that would of course be human on human violence and malice. Which is a primary point that will later be used in this post as a rebuttal to your desires of blissful ignorance.

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Why are you so desperate from humans? and why do I feel that you have nothing towards them except hatred and despise? Humans will always be humans, that's how they are created. And just to add to your info, you're a human too.

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Which is a primary point that will later be used in this post as a rebuttal to your desires of blissful ignorance.

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Mmm, blissful ignorance, lets see. Do you mean by what you said, that ignorance is bliss? So if it's bliss, then why don't you live in it? However, in my opinion, I would call it " having concrete conclusions, with concrete evidence and not going to chase some sort of illusion, which might be true or not"

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if you mean population controlling diseases and what not, you are wrong

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Well, believe it or not, new ones "emerge" and old ones "mutate" from one time to another, so all that happens is that scientists try to find cures and to "keep up" with the whatever disease and this is considered to be hard, and that is the reason of the bad reputation of the incurability of diseases.

Another thing,

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if you mean people who practice eugenics as a means of attempted racial superiority you are also sadly mistaken

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Let me tell you this once more, this is not the goal nowadays. And even if there are "people" who use eugenics in "evil" purpose, that wouldn't be their goal, Attempting racial superiority now is a pointless thing. However, I don't know what might show up in the future so don't mention the future when talking about it. Those guys "conspirators" are a whole lot more intelligent than that if they exist...

And what did you mean by Jesus man? Look, I don't believe that religion is a good thing or even a nice ideology, so just let us make that topic non-religious at all, so that it could be easy, clear, and with no bias. Please nobody turn that topic to a religious one.

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Of the non existence of natural population control, no, this would be the basic non existence of practicing or effective birth control. The diseases, war, violence, and even natural death are still hard at work trying to cull the population. We just breed like freakin rabbits.

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Let me tell you one thing, in this point you are EXTREMELY wrong. In fact, reproduction rate decreased in the 20th century very much than it used to be. The whole difference is that health care got improved vastly that everyone has a higher life expectancy nowadays, which made the death rate decrease and the world population increase, that is the reason, not anything
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And you made a great point when you mentioned that over-population causes many problems. However, this has a very little thing to do with the subject. The world's population is increasing no matter what, so let those people be functional, and have some purpose in life, and live with a point.

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Resources which fuel the science and research you are touting is diminishing, and rapidly. And sadly there may already exist scientific breakthroughs to remedy that situation, but a factor you dismiss as so many do may be at fault, but you will continue to deny it, even if found true perhaps.

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What are the resources? And how are they diminishing? And what is the idea? History? Well, Let's talk about history...

First of all, eugenics was invented many years before WW2, and its purpose was the "good" one, but it was with a not-so-good methods. At that time, there was nothing like gene therapy and the focus was not on making a superior race but rather a better race from all perspectives. And just as you said, in your last post, the Nazi regime used it as a means of spreading the Arian race all over the globe and nothing more, at that time Eugenics has been in the wrong hands, which made it gain that horrible reputation. Also, that sterilization policy was only because there wasn't any other means for decreasing the number of retarded people, but with the Nazi regime, this is what has happened, and this is where eugenics started having that horrible reputation.

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And though some sources will be, seem, OR BEGIN as perfectly natural, I guarantee you many will end up as created, manipulated, and or abused in some fashion by human hands, intentionally or otherwise.

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And here you talk back again about the theory of conspiracy... this is hopeless, it is not what we are talking about in here, it's not that hard. And what do you mean by creation and manipulation? Some sort of that Dark Angel TV show kind of thing? This has nothing to do with eugenics, if even existed; this has to do with the Human Genome Project, something way bigger than eugenics.

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Actually no. By definition gene therapy is a form of medicine. And there could indeed be pills "medication" that contain active ingredients that could actually start the chain reaction of creating, reorganizing, genes, proteins, cells, etc. Regardless of how hard it would be to figure out, imagine, or produce currently.

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It's impossible by any means that you could use chemicals when conducting gene therapy, why? Because gene therapy needs an active vector to transmit the whatever genes for replacing the undesired genes, these vectors are viruses that's because that the application of the therapy is to replace these genes by copying them from the viruses DNA to the targeted DNA, no other way is available and chemicals are completely out of discussion.

How you mention all the big shots in the U.S.A and all their black projects. This is mentioning the conspiracy theory, or is this is another thing that I'm unaware of?

Also, the sterilization yes happens, but only to retarded people so that they won't pass their genes even in a recessive form. Also, when you were talking about the use of eugenics in a racial way, this has almost stopped since WW2, almost 60 years ago so let's move on. And also, why reduce the black population? What threat do they make? They are harmless, totally.

And to Summit, Eugenics is a forced evolution. So, it is not a reversal for it, and before you talk about evolution try to understand it first. Evolution is the upgrading of organisms to face the new condition and to survive better. And reducing biodiversity is not a bad thing. As a fact, many diseases can be contained and treated more easily and separately, like the sickle cell anemia for an example. Another thing with that is with eugenics you become able to control the gene flow, not reducing or increasing it. Eugenics actually works ON the creation of better people nowadays, by recombining their DNA, as a fact, the recombinant DNA technology project started since the 1980s, and that should mean that there must be some sort of control on the subject, or am I wrong? I mean that it seems that it is kind of old. Also, recombinant DNA technology will ease the process entirely and will make people more adaptable in unfavorable conditions, and with science it might even reach the stage of making them auto-trophs, e.g. creating their own food by themselves. And who knows? maybe with science it might happen...

Decius- In regards to eugenics 'selective breeding' refers to not in the sense that you are individually selective regarding persons with whom you breed, but rather genetic engineering of the individual.

Kuja- Eugenics is forced yes. However eugenics also works against natural selection, hence a reversal of evolution within homeo sapiens. Eugenics as genetic engineering is dangerous because it replaces natural selection with artificial selection. I refered to 'biodiversity' as the diversity of allelic composition within the human population. Artifically engineering and altering genetic structure works against natural evolution. Eugenics reduces allelic diversity within human genetics. It interfers with crucial mechanisms that operate on evolutionary adaptations and processes. These mechanisms including- genetic mutations, gene flow, genetic drift, random mating and of course natural selection potentially are affected by eugenics. For evolution to occur, it must sustain a genetic equilibrium. Eugenics does not focus on equilibrium but rather modifying the population into a skewed structure. Over time, without an equilibrium, evolution of a species terminates (regardless of existing technology).

Also consider that eugenics actually works against allellic diversity within humans. It selects desired traits and throws away the rest. As a result, the level of resilience to an environment (which take in mind, a 'changing ever rapid' environment) will decrease dramatically. Eugenics alters the allelic frequencies and composition of specific genes that interfere with natural selection. Controling the gene flow ultimately affects the adapation of a species within its environment. Understand that evolution requires a somewhat stable environment. If the environment changes too rapidly, evolution doesn't have a chance to work. Also evolution only works when there is environmental pressure on the breeding population. Eugeneics doesn't provide an adaptable environment. Consequently allelic frequency would become potentially genetically vulnerable to survival.

If you've studied Genetic Algorithms (GAs) you would have seen a core problem with Eugenics, being that unfit individuals may have characteristics which will advance the fitness of the whole population. If Eugenics applied successfully (which is unlikely), it means that the human population will evolve to the level of the best person currently existing - and then stop. However if evolution is let to proceed on it's own, it will ultimately exceed the level of fitness of the best person alive - even if it does take longer. Selecting a criteria to measure the genetic "fitness" of an individual is ultimatately subjective. The fact remains that every generation does not inherit acquired characteristics in the sense that an improved gene pool would be transmitted.